SPINA THYR a research tool to evaluate thyroid function, deiodinases activity, TH resistance

[frozenborderline]

Okay so I'm getting some negative/concerning symptoms from thyroid supplementation again. A kind of extremely unpleasant dysphoria I can't even explain other than to say it almost feels like kappa opioid receptor agonism, if anybody has experienced that (it occurs on salvia and iboga).

I feel hot and "dry" but I don't think my temp is actually very increased. Feel sort of generally fluish but just very dry and different from normal flu-like symptoms. But def. feel like feverish and unpleasant.

Here's the kicker tho, that makes this seem trickier than just hyperthyroid: I first felt like this about 5 hours after my first T3 dose ever. And t3 only lasts about that long. So I figured it might have had to do with T3 "withdrawal". obviously you don't get withdrawal from one dose of a drug so what I mean is... something negative upon stopping.

I already had wonky immune tests (low total IgG but some high bands of IgG) prior to

 

[frozenborderline]

I am pretty cowboy-ish about trying things, since I want to get better so much in the alternative is a Potentially fatal mental/existential state. But I don’t feel great being so out on a limb with trying things that cause so many intense symptoms without really any insight from my doctor

 

[frozenborderline]

Also another weird thing I’ve noticed is beard hair is turning white. I am 23 for reference sake. This has never happened to my beard and it didn’t happen to my dad’s beard or hair even at an old age

 

[frozenborderline]

So i finally got my t3 compounded at a small dose to try the blanchard method.
except I said .5 mcg and my doctor sent in 1 mcg dammit.

and I forgot to ask for it time release. i've barely read any of the blanchard book b/c tired recently. Idk if I'm just getting a month 's prescription of useless bullshit now

 

[frozenborderline]

The thyroid thing is now really tricky and maddening to me. A few nights in a row I have had a bad/weird reaction to a small dose of cynoplus that normally makes me feel good. hard to describe it except dysphoria but not exactly pain, but very intense dysphoria, like kappa opioid stuff (salvia and iboga are like that) and sort of catatonic. Very tired, almost paralyzed.
One of the nights I had this I felt like I was hyperthyroid. I felt dry and hot and flu-ish, but I didn't have a fever. My heart rate has also stayed fairly low during these incidents.

TOday I had this at first with T4, and was confused bc i felt awful and headachey but not hungry , then I craved juice and I chugged juice and this helped a lot. Now I feel amost undertreated.
T3 seems to be easier on me in a way but if I dose it at 3 mcg it causes some hypomania and then depression when it wears off. Sometimes even a headache when it wears off.

I didn't talk about it much in this thread, but a couple weeks ago I felt like the thyroid was working great, I was pretty optimistic. I think at some point you have to trust your intuition and the fact that I responded well at one point (not just stimulation, but stopping muscle pain, raising my aerobic threshold, etc) makes me keep banging my head against the wall trying to make it work still, even though my responses have changed.

Like at first, I totally had better responses from cynoplus than cynomel. now I have problematic responses from both. It seems like the t4 is possibly hard on me, maybe due to liver problems, someone mentioned tudca which I have now and will try, maybe will help with conversion


but I also get interesting, sort of hypomanic effects from t3 at a certain dose that seem to also have depression upon withdrawal.

So then I think, well if neither of them work, why do i do them? Well they do work, sort of , and I feel worse without them in general. It seems to depend on when I take my dose. Also a couple of the times that I accidentlly underdosed and took more of a tiny crumble of t3 this also helped in a more subtle way than usual dose of 3.5 mcg

At this point my responses to things vary so much, although there are commonalities, that it's hard to even log all the inconsistencies and they don't seem to match up to any theory per se. WEll i'm tired enough that I don't really think systematically and haven't had the energy day-to-day to log stuff really consistently, so this doesn't even work so much as an experiment. I really wish I could hire a friend to just take detailed notes for me lol or something like that. Voice to text helps some but inconsistently.

Maybe it's just a consequence of being so ill for so long that refeeding is tricky but idk.

 

[frozenborderline]

The thing is, I'm starting to feel like my case is complicated and not classic in a way that would fit into any of the theories totally--blanchard's, peat's, wilsons. It seems to require some kind of personalized treatment, the responses to things are all over the place, my notes aren't detailed enough, I don't want to try and map the reality to a simple theory, but I also don't have a solid amount of notes to be able to look at this as a well-done experiment

 

[frozenborderline]

I've had a couple or a few nights in a row where a moderate/small dose of cynoplus caused a very strange thing where I felt like almost in shock, extremely dizzy and weak, and craving a ton of juice. I wonder if it has to do with either low cholesterol or poor liver function

Each time I got this I felt so awful and dizzy I could barely even speak, and then chugged juice and salt and got some relief.

I also got a similar feeling from direct sunlight for awhile, and was very pale afterwards. This is why I wondered about the low cholesterol. very speculative but cholesterol is needed for vitamin d synthesis and also steroid synthesis so it could cause these issues theoretically.

Oddly enough, I did not get these results from T3, although I got other negative symptoms from T3. I wonder if I'm in a kind of limbo here in that my symptoms don't quite fit any "theory" on thyroid totally. e.g. if blanchard were correct, I should be treated with even more t4 and less t3, but I feel like I can't handle t4 right now, even though I handled it fine a week or two ago??? I wonder if what I should do is not take T4, but still take the ultra low dose T3 that blanchard reccomends. A lot of people have reported that when very sick, it's sometimes hard to convert T4.

Anyway, these symptoms were very intense, I would've gone to the ER but I have a vow to never go to the ER.

 

[frozenborderline]

I tried my first dose of compounded, slow release t3 at 1mcg, with no effect, besides a little feeling of stomach upset

 

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Increasingly, I wonder if there's a secondary mechanism preventing my recovery that doesn't have to do directly with thyroid.
Like problems converting t4, or nutritional deficiencies. Or low cholesterol

 

[frozenborderline]

t3 doses have stopped helping in normal way and started making me feel "brittle"

 

[frozenborderline]

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2017.00163/full
"The hypothalamus–pituitary–thyroid feedback control is a dynamic, adaptive system. In situations of illness and deprivation of energy representing type 1 allostasis, the stress response operates to alter both its set point and peripheral transfer parameters. In contrast, type 2 allostatic load, typically effective in psychosocial stress, pregnancy, metabolic syndrome, and adaptation to cold, produces a nearly opposite phenotype of predictive plasticity. The non-thyroidal illness syndrome (NTIS) or thyroid allostasis in critical illness, tumors, uremia, and starvation (TACITUS), commonly observed in hospitalized patients, displays a historically well-studied pattern of allostatic thyroid response. This is characterized by decreased total and free thyroid hormone concentrations and varying levels of thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) ranging from decreased (in severe cases) to normal or even elevated (mainly in the recovery phase) TSH concentrations. An acute versus chronic stage (wasting syndrome) of TACITUS can be discerned. The two types differ in molecular mechanisms and prognosis. The acute adaptation of thyroid hormone metabolism to critical illness may prove beneficial to the organism, whereas the far more complex molecular alterations associated with chronic illness frequently lead to allostatic overload. The latter is associated with poor outcome, independently of the underlying disease. Adaptive responses of thyroid homeostasis extend to alterations in thyroid hormone concentrations during fetal life, periods of weight gain or loss, thermoregulation, physical exercise, and psychiatric diseases. The various forms of thyroid allostasis pose serious problems in differential diagnosis of thyroid disease. This review article provides an overview of physiological mechanisms as well as major diagnostic and therapeutic implications of thyroid allostasis under a variety of developmental and straining conditions."
This is an article with at least one of the people who came up with SPINA working on it, about thyroid homeostasis and allostasis.

It strikes me as akin to Naviaux's ideas, but more directed toward thyroid's role than the cellular level and individual metabolic pathways.
@Iritu1021 @pattismith @Learner1 this relates to t1am theory I think

 

[frozenborderline]

Actually this guy is on twitter, and would probably be interested in talking about stuff like t1am's role in CFS, etc

 

[frozenborderline]

@drjwdietrich

 

[Learner1]

This is an article with at least one of the people who came up with SPINA working on it, about thyroid homeostasis and allostasis.

It strikes me as akin to Naviaux's ideas, but more directed toward thyroid's role than the cellular level and individual metabolic pathways.
@Iritu1021 @pattismith @Learner1 this relates to t1am theory I think

Thanks for posting, @debored I wish I could have had it to hand to the last idiot endocrinologist I saw who didn't understand that thyroid lab values would be different in patients who are very ill. Table 2, in particular, looks useful.

 

[frozenborderline]

Thanks for posting, @debored I wish I could have had it to hand to the last idiot endocrinologist I saw who didn't understand that thyroid lab values would be different in patients who are very ill. Table 2, in particular, looks useful.

yeah unfortunately I don't think these parameters of thyroid homeostasis, etc, are widely used esp. in the US. I still don't know if they're the be-all and end-all and think thyroid function should be assessed on symptoms too, but this would at least catch a lot more patients that slip through the cracks

 

[Learner1]

I think rT3 should be measured more...

 

[Iritu1021]

@drob31 - would you mind sharing your rT3 story with others?

 

[pamojja]

Table 2, in particular, looks useful.

I liked this one. Since endurance training isn't really feasible for me yet, I wonder if cold-adaptation would do enough to bring my fT3 a little bid up.

 

[drob31]

I think rT3 should be measured more...

Anecdotally, when my rt3 was lowered by doing t3 only, and my free t3 was elevated, I felt drastically worse.

Currently, with about the same free t3 level, and double the rt3, I feel much better.

Marathon runners and dieters have high rt3 levels and it doesn't cause CFS symptoms in them. I don't believe the hypothesis that rt3 prevents t3 from accessing the TR.

 

[Learner1]

My TSH was 1.0 and rT3 was 500. I'd gained 30 lbs, had splitting nails and dry, thinning hair.

Going on T3 helped me tremendously. We are all different.