SPINA THYR a research tool to evaluate thyroid function, deiodinases activity, TH resistance

[Iritu1021]

So you now only use T4?

Yes, I now take 100 mcg of levothyroxine. I had to start at tiny doses and it wasn't pleasant at first. I don't think I was able to tolerate T4 at all prior to taking lithium. Although I suspect that if I was started on T4 instead of Armour in the first place, it could have been a very different story for me. But in my experience, once you've been on T3, it becomes extremely difficult to switch to T4. Which is why I now recommend that nobody should start with T3 and NDT unless they failed a trial of T4 first.

According to Dr. Phelps who has a site about bipolar 2, T4 has a mood stabilizing effect while T3 has mood destabilizing effect. (I think for me this destabilizing effect extends not just to mood but also to the parts of limbic system that control autonomic regulation). Phelps writes that he only uses T3 for treating unipolar depression and T4 if he suspects bipolarity. Although I guess taking a small dose of T3 along with lithium or other mood stabilizing agent might be fine too.

I should also note that vast majority of people with bipolar 2 are not aware that they have it. The hypomanias in bipolar 2 usually manifest only as enhanced intelligence, drive and creativity and may disappear completely in the later stages of illness. It can also manifest with "mixed hypomanic state" which is just overstimulation and anxiety.

POTS was a much bigger issue for me when I used high doses of Armour (especially sublingually, which might have something to do with calcitonin in NDT).

 

[Iritu1021]

I know that phenibut and gabapentin can act as mood stabilizers, don't act on GABA but on ion channels, and thus I wonder if they have similar effect to calcium or lithium

I did not find either either one of those very helpful but I also didn't use them long term. I had a friend with bipolar 1 who was prescribed gabapentin in addition to lithium.

Lithium and lamotrigine seem to have the best track record for bipolar 2. Lamotrigine is the best according to Dr.Phelps' clinical experience but it comes with a small risk of life threatening skin reactions. Lithium orotate works at much smaller doses than regular lithium so I see it as the safest option. In addition lithium fits well with our current theory about calcium regulation that we've been discussing in another thread.

 

[pattismith]

@Iritu1021

I sometimes wonder if my main problem was bipolarity. The fact I could function well during some periods (with a high stress stimulation, but enought room to manage this stress), and the fact these periods were always followed by big crashes....
With time going by, stress and stimuli became less and less effective to turn on the button...until I started low dose T3...

 

[frozenborderline]

Like I said I'm still cautiously optimistic, because I see it as a really good sign that my pain has almost disappeared and I feel lighter. I think that some form of thyroid treatment will improve me a decent amount, whatever I settle on.

 

[Iritu1021]

Like I said I'm still cautiously optimistic, because I see it as a really good sign that my pain has almost disappeared and I feel lighter. I think that some form of thyroid treatment will improve me a decent amount, whatever I settle on.

Obviously we're all believers in thyroid on this thread so you don't have to sell us on it
It's just about using it wisely, and I'm telling you some things that I wish someone told me back when I started taking it.

 

[Iritu1021]

@Iritu1021

I sometimes wonder if my main problem was bipolarity. The fact I could function well during some periods (with a high stress stimulation, but enought room to manage this stress), and the fact these periods were always followed by big crashes....
With time going by, stress and stimuli became less and less effective to turn on the button...until I started low dose T3...

I think the combination of thyroid disease and bipolar 2 creates a new type of illness with a presentation more severe than either one of these conditions on their own.

When I began reading about bipolar 2, I learned that a lot of people with severe form of illness are bed bound or house bound similar to CFS and have a wide range of physical symptoms. And there are now experts who argue that bipolar 2 should be renamed because studies show that it has a completely different mechanism of disease than bipolar 1. Also, bipolar 2 has a much worse prognosis, with much higher disability and suicide rate than bipolar 1.

I suspect that both disorders involve parts of the limbic lobe involved in emotion but bipolar 1 probably extends more toward frontal lobe transmission while bipolar 2 extends more to the deep limbic structures and brain stem.

 

[frozenborderline]

Obviously we're all believers in thyroid on this thread so you don't have to sell us on it
It's just about using it wisely, and I'm telling you some things that I wish someone told me back when I started taking it./QUOTE]

Yes, and I absolutely appreciate it. I'm certainly risking some of those effects you talked about, but I'm trying to be rigorous in my experimenting, I don't want to stop doing this before a few weeks at least, unless I get really concerning physical symptoms, not just mood swings. I do have some lithium at hand. I would have to wait for my doctors communication to get a low enough dose compounded to start the blanchard protocol, so I'll try the one i'm on for now and be wary re: pushing the doses high at all, experiment with calcium, lithium, salt and vitamin D to deal with the symptoms that come up in the mean time.

 

[frozenborderline]

took first dose of lithium with my evening cynoplus and I don't like it at all . feel more profoundly tired/foggy/cold than I have in awhile. It was an ultra small dose too

 

[Iritu1021]

took first dose of lithium with my evening cynoplus and I don't like it at all . feel more profoundly tired/foggy/cold than I have in awhile. It was an ultra small dose too

I had the same effect from lithium when I wasn't on enough T4. It should get better once you take more thyroid.

Basically lithium just sucks when you first go on it. And if you're not on enough T4, you may not be able to handle it. Plus I don't know if it works with T3 as well as it does with T4. It lowers both thyroid production and catecholamines and initially makes you more hypothyroid and depressed. But in the long run it's a life saver.

I have just discovered that you can offset catecholamine lowering effect of lithium by taking rubidium.

 

[frozenborderline]

I had the same effect from lithium when I wasn't on enough T4. It should get better once you take more thyroid.

Basically lithium just sucks when you first go on it. And if you're not on enough T4, you may not be able to handle it. Plus I don't know if it works with T3 as well as it does with T4. It lowers both thyroid production and catecholamines and essentially makes you initially more hypothyroid and depressed.

I have just discovered that you can offset catecholamine lowering effect of lithium by taking rubidium.

Well, I'm probably not going to up my T4 for awhile, at least a week, because I would want to wait until I can get ultra-small t3 doses compounded (parents out of town leaving me here and I really can barely handle just getting out of bed and taking my pills. So I might lay off the lithium for now. The mood swings are a little unpleasant but not extreme. I'm wondering if vitamin D, calcium, and salt might offset them, for the meantime

 

[Iritu1021]

I had the same effect from lithium when I wasn't on enough T4. It should get better once you take more thyroid.

Basically lithium just sucks when you first go on it. And if you're not on enough T4, you may not be able to handle it. Plus I don't know if it works with T3 as well as it does with T4. It lowers both thyroid production and catecholamines and initially makes you more hypothyroid and depressed. But in the long run it's a life saver.

I have just discovered that you can offset catecholamine lowering effect of lithium by taking rubidium.

It's also probably best to take it during the time when you're feeling overstimulated and hypomanic. Then it has a calming effect.

 

[frozenborderline]

The reason I'm wondering about gabapentin is that I used to take it when doctors were treating insomnia and brain fog as my main symptom (not severe fatigue), and it helped some, and is known as a mood stabilizer. So i still have lots left over. I remember getting gabaergic hangovers that felt like what people describe as excitoxicity, from phenibut doses the previous night, and then taking gabapentin really seeming to calm the storm down a lot and make me feel somewhat normal

 

[frozenborderline]

It's also probably best to take it during the time when you're feeling overstimulated and hypomanic. Then it has a calming effect.

I haven't felt very overstimulated or hypomanic the past few days, although I've sort of just felt a little depressed/moody on the withdrawal. But if I up the dose I will keep it around

 

[Iritu1021]

I haven't felt very overstimulated or hypomanic the past few days, although I've sort of just felt a little depressed/moody on the withdrawal. But if I up the dose I will keep it around

Idk, maybe gabapentin is the answer for you - everybody's different. The only way to find out is to experiment.

 

[frozenborderline]

Idk, maybe gabapentin is the answer for you - everybody's different. The only way to find out is to experiment.

The only concern I have with gabapentin is that it's serotonergic, to some extent. almost very drug is dirty, and I guess we have to weigh the good vs bad. The reason I'm curious is that I was a moderate recreational drug user and supplement user before I got sick and for the first period when I got sick, which allowed me to witness very strange changes in how I react to drugs that I believe may be characteristic of illness.

The horrible hangovers from phenibut, for example, didn't happen until I'd been ill for awhile. Stimulants, which used to make me relaxed (for ADHD diagnosis) started causing extreme adrenergic effects.

 

[frozenborderline]

Felt not-great all evening in a way I'm sort of attributing to the lithium, woke up and feel nauseous and cold/weak

 

[frozenborderline]

Felt p good after cynoplus tonight. Heart rate actually lowered after I took it. I think that this is indicative of lowered stress hormones as either stress hormones or good thyroid function could raise heart rate--stress hormones inflating it artificially, and thus one must go by symptoms too.

 

[frozenborderline]

On a side note, i just took bp twice, first time it was 130/80, second 105/77, taken less than a minute apart, such a big gap, i'm wondering if the machine is wonky? I hope I don't need to buy a new one. I honestly think I'll take bp less often from now on, and go by pulse and temp, the bp is just to make sure I don't get a stroke from being hyperthyroid, not the best measure of metabolism in general.

 

[Iritu1021]

On a side note, i just took bp twice, first time it was 130/80, second 105/77, taken less than a minute apart, such a big gap, i'm wondering if the machine is wonky? I hope I don't need to buy a new one. I honestly think I'll take bp less often from now on, and go by pulse and temp, the bp is just to make sure I don't get a stroke from being hyperthyroid, not the best measure of metabolism in general.

No, but it's a good measure of dysautonomia which is basically a wonky blood pressure.

 

[frozenborderline]

I feel very good on cynoplus but get symptoms of either hyperthyroidism or increased stress hormones (which is not necessarily hyperthyroidism but could be caused by reverse t3 or something else) when I take cynomel alone sometimes. This doesn't necessarily mean I need T4 only but maybe indicates I need a combination.