SPINA THYR a research tool to evaluate thyroid function, deiodinases activity, TH resistance

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,274
Likes
6,311
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2017.00163/full


It strikes me as akin to Naviaux's ideas, but more directed toward thyroid's role than the cellular level and individual metabolic pathways.
@Iritu1021 @pattismith @Learner1 this relates to t1am theory I think
yes, very good article, I already posted it here:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/thyroid-adaptation-in-various-conditions.57635/

Some others are really valuable on T3/T4 supplementation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3205882/

and Dr Jonklaas from Georgetown also does a great job with several studies
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4913511/
 
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
"
"I was reading about adrenochrome and thyroid resistance. Adrenochrome is a natural metabolite of adrenaline and is thought to cause schizophrenia. Here is a passage from Dr. Hoffer and Dr. Osmond's book:

Large doses of hormone did not increase oxygen consumption. It has been known for a long time that schizophrenic patients could tolerate large doses of thyroid and not show any evidence of hyperthyroidism. Hoskins (1932) reported that schizophrenic patients were resistant to large doses of thyroid. We have found that 5 grains must usually be given before the pulse rate is elevated to 100 or more. This is nearly twice the normal endogenous production of thyroid. Brody and Man (1950) found that the concentrated serum precipitable iodine for 57 schizophrenic patients was normal.
They gave them up to 200 micrograms of T₃:

Of this group, half were given 200 µg of l-triiodothyronine each day and the other half, placebo. Of the drug group 12 were improved and, of the placebo group, 2 were improved.
Based on the work of Dr.s Osmond and Hoffer, niacin and ascorbate should increase T₃ sensitivity by reducing adrenochrome and other antithyroid quinones. This is just one illustration of how one person can be much more resistant to thyroid hormone than another."
 
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
its been awhile since ive posted anything. i have mostly been doing the thyroid protocol that I adapted from danny roddy. It was sometimes rocky but mostly worked. It ended up being doses of about 1mcg t3 a few times a day plus a dose of 15mcg t4/5 mcg t3 a couple times a day. Today I start the blanchard protocol. I was nervous about starting with 50 mcg t4 as this is a big change in ratio from what I was doing before, but I will try it for a short time and see if i have any negative reactions
 
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
I don't have great expectations for the blanchard protocol. The ~3mcg doses of t3 that peat recommended were not really ideal for me, but i got way better results just by reducing the dose to about 1mcg three times a day, plus the small cynoplus doses, which is a way smaller ratio than blanchards. But i want to try this protocol despite that, since some people have had great success with it.
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,476
Likes
1,050
its been awhile since ive posted anything. i have mostly been doing the thyroid protocol that I adapted from danny roddy. It was sometimes rocky but mostly worked. It ended up being doses of about 1mcg t3 a few times a day plus a dose of 15mcg t4/5 mcg t3 a couple times a day. Today I start the blanchard protocol. I was nervous about starting with 50 mcg t4 as this is a big change in ratio from what I was doing before, but I will try it for a short time and see if i have any negative reactions

At least for me, it tooks months for the "t4" to "stabalize." Also, I can't tolerate t3 even at 1 mcg.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Likes
771
hey @debored13 - good to hear from you, I was wondering how you were doing.

I just wrote a new blog post "Thyroid and 5HT receptors" - it was four years in the making. Abnormal or "supersensitive" 5HT receptors were one of the first explanations I arrived at when looking at my weird NDT reactions, then dismissed it because I couldn't fully grasp it at the time but now, after a lot of experimentation, I'm back to this theory.

You guys should try playing with your 5HT receptors and see how it affects your thyroid tolerance. For me, lithium orotate seems to do the trick but if you can't get past its initial side effects, there are other options out there as well.

p.s. And I know that Peat says to cut out dietary serotonin but I don't think it's the solution.
 
Last edited:
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
hey @debored13 - good to hear from you, I was wondering how you were doing.

I just wrote a new blog post "Thyroid and 5HT receptors" - it was four years in the making. Abnormal or "supersensitive" 5HT receptors were one of the first explanations I arrived at when looking at my weird NDT reactions, then dismissed it because I couldn't fully grasp it at the time but now, after a lot of experimentation, I'm back to this theory.

You guys should try playing with your 5HT receptors and see how it affects your thyroid tolerance. For me, lithium orotate seems to do the trick but if you can't get past its initial side effects, there are other options out there as well.

p.s. And I know that Peat says to cut out dietary serotonin but I don't think it's the solution.
The thing is I do look at what various people on this topic say, and I do hold some of them in higher regard than others, but I don't look at just one (Peat), and I don't ignore my own experience. There is a decent amount of literature showing abnormally sensitive serotonin receptors, or high-ish serotonin, in CFS, I believe, and there's also this new stuff about higher tryptophan/kynurenine balance, possibly, with the "metabolic trap".

I would come with the links on this stuff but I know they're out there, on other threads, and maybe when I am feeling better (the new blanchard high t4 dose is kicking my ass) I will write more about this.

The thing about serotonin, is its more complex than agonists vs antagonists, ofc, but I have done well with certain serotonin antagonists, like cyproheptadine, and things that supposedly deplete serotonin, like high dose BCAAs. I have not ever done well with SSRIs, and have never tried serotonin agonists like MDMA.

Unfortunately, most if not all serotonin antagonists are "dirty" and have lots of other effects like anticholinergic/antihistamine, etc, so they may make one sleepy and not be a good test. I am still curious about odansetron, which I tried before illness when I was nauseous, but never tried since I was ill.
 
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
Yesterday I didn't really follow up b/c i felt so bad. I felt awful from the T4 dose. Basically felt fluish, achey, overly hot, but without my temp actually rising much. I got what felt sort of like a migraine (i had these as kid), except i didn't have aura or throbbing on the back of the head..., it was basically equal in intensity to a migraine tho, not exaggerating, I was curled into fetal position moaning along with the black metal that I was listening to, for a little while. Fluishness and occasional headaches are part of CFS in general, but normalluy thyroid doses make me feel at least a little better, whereas this made me feel a lot worse. I have now read a decent amount of the blanchard book and its interesting but it doesnt really seem to go into adverse reactions to t4 which seem really common, and how T4 in people who can't deiodinate/convert it may raise reverse T3?? which could be responsible for what I was feeling?

I want to be open-minded to the blanchard protocol. When I started my first thyroid "protocol" --loosely following danny roddy's/peat's instructions, I did have some side effects but was glad I pushed through, but this is way worse. Since I can't just go to the ER anytime something like this happens, I am considering calling the experiment off.
 
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
i'm starting to think that thyroid homeostasis is so complex that this stuff has to be personalized, and also wondering what other substances or nutrient deficiencies could exacerbate problems deiodinating or w/e, or problems with reverse T3
 
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
At least for me, it tooks months for the "t4" to "stabalize." Also, I can't tolerate t3 even at 1 mcg.
I can tolerate T3 at ~1 mcg at a time. Its a funny thing because I sort of am between peat and blanchard protocols a little bit usually in that i prefer sub 5mcg t3 doses and the small diff between 5 and 1 mcg makes a huge diff. to me but I prefer it dosed a few times a day, and I dont seem to tolerate the higher t4-t3 ratio that blanchard recommends. At this point I want to find a very skilled endo that can help me personalize this stuff.
 
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
hey @debored13 - good to hear from you, I was wondering how you were doing.

I just wrote a new blog post "Thyroid and 5HT receptors" - it was four years in the making. Abnormal or "supersensitive" 5HT receptors were one of the first explanations I arrived at when looking at my weird NDT reactions, then dismissed it because I couldn't fully grasp it at the time but now, after a lot of experimentation, I'm back to this theory.

You guys should try playing with your 5HT receptors and see how it affects your thyroid tolerance. For me, lithium orotate seems to do the trick but if you can't get past its initial side effects, there are other options out there as well.

p.s. And I know that Peat says to cut out dietary serotonin but I don't think it's the solution.
I was also off phoenixrising for a little bit b/c i was trying to do a little social media work for a company that may pay off and help me buy some more supplements god willing
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Likes
771
Yesterday I didn't really follow up b/c i felt so bad. I felt awful from the T4 dose. Basically felt fluish, achey, overly hot, but without my temp actually rising much. I got what felt sort of like a migraine (i had these as kid), except i didn't have aura or throbbing on the back of the head..., it was basically equal in intensity to a migraine tho, not exaggerating, I was curled into fetal position moaning along with the black metal that I was listening to, for a little while. Fluishness and occasional headaches are part of CFS in general, but normalluy thyroid doses make me feel at least a little better, whereas this made me feel a lot worse. I have now read a decent amount of the blanchard book and its interesting but it doesnt really seem to go into adverse reactions to t4 which seem really common, and how T4 in people who can't deiodinate/convert it may raise reverse T3?? which could be responsible for what I was feeling?

I want to be open-minded to the blanchard protocol. When I started my first thyroid "protocol" --loosely following danny roddy's/peat's instructions, I did have some side effects but was glad I pushed through, but this is way worse. Since I can't just go to the ER anytime something like this happens, I am considering calling the experiment off.
That sucks... Sorry to hear that. I know that feeling very well. I was going to tell you not to try it but figured you'd do it anyway.

Blanchard started people off on 12.5 mcg of T4, never on 50 mcg right away. Also, he would completely wean people off T3 and let their TSH and other settings return to baseline state before starting T4. And he does describe that weaning process as a painful ordeal. So what you were doing was not the Blanchard way of doing it at all.

Both drob13 and I started with 3.125 mcg of T4 and slowly worked our way up. I probably wouldn't be able to tolerate T4 at all had I not fixed my serotonin receptor supersensitivity (which was exacerbated by T3 and stimulants) with lithium prior to starting T4.

I would recommend that you taper off T3 completely, start lithium and then add T4. That's how I did it. You're probably not going to want to go through this painful ordeal unless you get to the point when you can no longer tolerate T3 - which is what eventually happened to me.

Maybe some other drugs besides lithium, such as atypical antipsychotics or lamotrigine, can achieve the same result- but I'm not sure since I don't have experience with that.
 
Last edited:
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
That sucks... Sorry to hear that. I know that feeling very well. I was going to tell you not to try it but figured you'd do it anyway.

Blanchard started people off on 12.5 mcg of T4, never on 50 mcg right away. Also, he would completely wean people off T3 and let their TSH and other settings return to baseline state before starting T4. He does describe that process as a painful ordeal. So what you were doing was not the Blanchard way of doing it at all.

Both drob13 and I started with 3.125 mcg of T4 and slowly worked it way up. I probably wouldn't be able to tolerate T4 at all had I not fixed my serotonin receptor supersensitivity (which was exacerbated by T3 and stimulants) with lithium prior to starting T4.
ah, ok. my dad has read like half the blanchard book , since i didnt really have the energy to read it at the moment, and seemed to think starting with 50 mcg t4, 1 mcg t3, was what should be done. I kind of expressed trepidation at jumping to such a radically diff. t4/t3 ratio, but he was semi-insistent. i have learned that someone has taken over blanchards practice in boston, and maybe i will see this doctor when i am down there seeing a POTS doctor.
 
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
Prior to trying this pseudo-blanchard protocol, i guess, I had been doing sort of decent on the different thyroid protocol. I guess the thing is it wasnt to the point where it was curative, so I am curious about the blanchard one since at least one person on here (@Iritu1021) has been sort of fully cured by it (I mean, according to the story, it cured the most severe physical symptoms, but managing secondary neuropsychiatric symptoms like mood dysregulation is another story).

anyway, with the thyroid protocol i was doing for most of the past few months, sort of a modified peat/danny roddy approach, I wasn't having hypo mania or worsened POTS or any of the stuff Blanchard talks about as a problem... but it also wasn't curative--only helped me go from in intense pain and brain fog to being a little more lucid and able to rest comfortable.

So I guess I just want to try the Blanchard protocol to see if it manages to be fully curative, with some tweaking. I'm starting to doubt that it will, and to think that i may be in the category of CFS people who thyroid treatment only helps partially. May be looking into IVIG. Have continued to get saline twice a week which helps with some symptoms but is very short lasting
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Likes
771
Prior to trying this pseudo-blanchard protocol, i guess, I had been doing sort of decent on the different thyroid protocol. I guess the thing is it wasnt to the point where it was curative, so I am curious about the blanchard one since at least one person on here (@Iritu1021) has been sort of fully cured by it (I mean, according to the story, it cured the most severe physical symptoms, but managing secondary neuropsychiatric symptoms like mood dysregulation is another story).

anyway, with the thyroid protocol i was doing for most of the past few months, sort of a modified peat/danny roddy approach, I wasn't having hypo mania or worsened POTS or any of the stuff Blanchard talks about as a problem... but it also wasn't curative--only helped me go from in intense pain and brain fog to being a little more lucid and able to rest comfortable.

So I guess I just want to try the Blanchard protocol to see if it manages to be fully curative, with some tweaking. I'm starting to doubt that it will, and to think that i may be in the category of CFS people who thyroid treatment only helps partially. May be looking into IVIG. Have continued to get saline twice a week which helps with some symptoms but is very short lasting
No, I was not "cured" by Blanchard protocol. All I borrowed from Blanchard was T3 microdosing. It was just a temporary crutch to help me come off NDT. Lithium orotate +T4 is what worked the best for me. But I had to get through a very unpleasant phase first to get there.
I was at the point where it was "do or die" situation which helped me to endure both coming off T3 and the initial side effects of lithium.
 
Messages
3,587
Likes
4,303
Location
Vermont, school in Western MA
No, I was not "cured" by Blanchard protocol. It was just a temporary crutch to help me come off NDT. Lithium orotate +T4 is what worked the best for me. But I had to get through a very unpleasant phase first to get there.
I was at the point where it was "do or die" situation which helped me to endure both coming off T3 and the initial side effects of lithium.
Okay, sorry for the misrepresentation. I guess what I mean is you were cured by a thyroid protocol, but one that was sort of informed a lot by blanchard? It seems like you have speculated about what the microdoses of T3 did re: intracellular calcium, and tried to replicate that effect with other things , however? is that fair to say?.

What I mean, in any case, is that some people have made fairly dramatic recoveries, if not full recoveries, using thyroid, and some people continue to take thyroid but still have most of their CFS symptoms, even if thyroid helps a lot. There's a whole range of this within CFS circles. So I am trying not to get my hopes up too much. But thyroid is at least giving some relief without causing many problems for me, at least at the doses I have been using
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Likes
771
Okay, sorry for the misrepresentation. I guess what I mean is you were cured by a thyroid protocol, but one that was sort of informed a lot by blanchard? It seems like you have speculated about what the microdoses of T3 did re: intracellular calcium, and tried to replicate that effect with other things , however? is that fair to say?.

What I mean, in any case, is that some people have made fairly dramatic recoveries, if not full recoveries, using thyroid, and some people continue to take thyroid but still have most of their CFS symptoms, even if thyroid helps a lot. There's a whole range of this within CFS circles. So I am trying not to get my hopes up too much. But thyroid is at least giving some relief without causing many problems for me, at least at the doses I have been using
I think that supersensitive receptors are complicated because you can have one type of receptor upregulated while the other one downregulated, etc. And T3 clearly has an effect on the serotonin receptors. If someone has serotonin receptor downregulation due to hypothyroidism (which can also be diagnosed as CFS) they might be cured by the thyroid hormone only, if someone has receptor supersensitivity and hypothyroidism at the same time than it's a very different story. Ray Peat probably has some degree of serotonin supersensitivity but not as bad as you and I have (maybe because he never took stimulants and SSRIs).

Lithium seems to completely change the way my body handles the thyroid hormone, including dramatic change in T4 to T3 conversion. I went back to my Lithium book yesterday and found that with chronic use it depletes serotonin storage in neurons and corrects receptor supersensitivity. However, with acute use it actually briefly increases serotonin synthesis. This is probably why most people feel like crap when they start on lithium and never get past the initial side effects. So maybe if you use it with cyproheptadine initially you can get past that issue.

And than there is also a temporary imbalance between noradrenergic and cholinergic settings and also the initial effect on sodium channels but they only last a few days. And the transient lowering in cAMP which can be compensated with forskolin (but I think it's more of an issue when one is hypothyroid).

Lithium also affects intracellular calcium signaling through its effect on IP3 metabolism. This might be linked to its antiviral effect. But again - the body has to adapt to the new settings.

For me, the minimum effective dose of LO seems to be around 20 mg (although I'm still working it out) - but that's when "the click" in the receptor settings seems to occur - but the dose will be different for everyone.

I agree that there are no "clean drugs" when it comes to serotonin receptors but for me lithium orotate seems to be the least dirty option and I like the fact that its a natural substance. The only thing I don't like about it is that it lowers my dopamine but I'm going to try and add something to balance it out.
 
Last edited:

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
3,817
Likes
6,838
Location
Alberta
Basically felt fluish, achey, overly hot, but without my temp actually rising much.
I often feel feverish (and forehead feels hot to touch) but with my oral temperature normal or even lower than normal. I wonder if we feel that when our internal temperature is dropping, thus causing a temporary temperature differential between parts of our bodies. Alternatively, maybe ME distorts our perception of temperature.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Likes
771
I often feel feverish (and forehead feels hot to touch) but with my oral temperature normal or even lower than normal. I wonder if we feel that when our internal temperature is dropping, thus causing a temporary temperature differential between parts of our bodies. Alternatively, maybe ME distorts our perception of temperature.
Did you read my blog? 5HT1A receptor is involved in temperature regulation, as well as blood pressure and pulse regulation. It is also a main regulating receptor in the hypothalamus - so it should definitely be a suspect when it comes to dysautonomia and HPA dysfunction.

I think 5HT1A dysfunction can really mimic the thyroid hormone effects, in fact it might be the reason why we feel the thyroid hormone fluctuations so strong and so fast while “normal people” do not notice them at all.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Likes
771
ah, ok. my dad has read like half the blanchard book , since i didnt really have the energy to read it at the moment, and seemed to think starting with 50 mcg t4, 1 mcg t3, was what should be done. I kind of expressed trepidation at jumping to such a radically diff. t4/t3 ratio, but he was semi-insistent. i have learned that someone has taken over blanchards practice in boston, and maybe i will see this doctor when i am down there seeing a POTS doctor.
I think @drob31 spoke to that doctor and thought that she was useless and believes in adrenal fatigue and doesn’t follow anything that Blanchard did. Regardless, everything you need to know is in the book.

I suspect you brain fog might be due to overactive 5HT2C receptor lowering DA and NE. Maybe mirtazapine could help with that. And you could experiment with 5HT1A agonists and see if they reproduce some of the effects you get from T3. Both drob31 and I have realized over time that our reaction to T3 could be reproduced by other substances that act on serotonin receptors.