Sore Throat / Mood Virus & China "HIV-Like" Virus

[feverdreams]

Hi all,

For those of you who know @Hip and have read his blog, he has done a fantastic job detailing the effects of the 'Sore Throat / Mood Virus' - I believe I have this or the China "HIV-like" virus, most likely the latter, though I believe the two are closely related.

The weird part is that initially I developed the classic post-exertional malaise, so bad in fact that i had to lay down for 2-3 hours after working out, and had very bad bouts of tachyardia. Now (6-12 months later), instead I wake up groggy and cloudy headed for most of the morning, and then I feel more clear headed after I exercise.

The symptoms of these two illnesses are well documented on the internet, in no small part because they seem to both induce incredibly detrimental mental effects. I'll spare you my timeline of symptoms, as I've luckily finished that stage of the illness - the uncontrollable mental anxiety, paranoia, suicidal ideation, etc. I'm now just left with lower energy, anhedonia, more depressed mood and lower libido.

However, I believe I have discovered certain patterns from my illness and those who I've unfortunately given it to around me. I'm not sure why people are not connecting certain dots, and I would like to posit what I believe to be certain impacts, and see if the collective intelligence of this forum can help garner further insights via inductive reasoning.

Here goes:
- Connective Tissue: these illnesses unquestionably have impact on connective tissue, and/or subcutaneous layers of fat. In the acute stage, I had massive amounts of ketones in my urine as I lost an unhealthy amount of weight in a matter of weeks. Aside from the skin thinning / wrinkling symptoms that are well documented as mentioned above, later others around me developed clear signs of connective tissue problems such as plantar fasciitis in their feet, or rapid onset degeneration of hip tissue leading to a diagnosis of needing immediate hip replacement.

- Hormones / Neurotransmitters: I know unequivocally that these are impacted by the illness. I followed the trail of my symptoms and it was eventually discovered that I was completely deficient in Epinephrine and Norepinephrine, which apparently is the result of Dopamine not being converted to these two neurotransmitters. Another I have unfortunately infected before realizing it (female) all of a sudden bled non-stop vaginally for many months, and had to take high levels of progesterone to get it to stop. Doctors could not figure out why. In addition, reports from both viruses display weight loss, followed by weight gain around the belly, which is usually related to hormones (unless there is a direct infection of tissue elsewhere in the body so the body stores the fat elsewhere? But that seems like a reach and hormones make more sense, since I know for sure they are impacted).

- Anxiety / Anhedonia / Suicidal Ideation: I suspect these are somehow related to the primitive brain stem / HPA axis and related to hormones above. Again, I do not know if it is a direct infection or the systems being thrown off (sympathetic / parasympathetic)

- White Coated Tongue: This seems to be part of what makes the China sufferers believe it is related to HIV. However, Candida coated tongue occurs in late staged AIDs, not early HIV infection. In addition, in my own infection I discovered that it was not candida as it did not respond to anti-fungals, but rather a seeming bacterial imbalance. I discovered that Chinese Traditional Medicine considers this to be caused by a spleen imbalance

- Liver / Spleen pain: Initially I presumed they were swollen; now I wonder if the loss of connective tissue is actually causing them to have harder contact with the ribs or other surrounding organs (maybe a crazy theory)

- Spine: I had a bout of viral (?) meningitis. It did happen after taking Doxycycline. Initially I thought it was a reaction to the medicine, then I wondered if it was herx reaction. Now I wonder if it simply lowered my immune system and allowed the virus to spread further and faster. Now I have to do chiro every 1-2 weeks or my spine stiffens up to the point of significant distraction.

My questions:
1) Is it likely to be a pathogen that directly infects connective tissue? Or somehow causes the body to metabolize it to fight the infection elsewhere? I think the former.
2) Is there a type of tissue that is present through the skin, nervous system, HPA axis, and possibly the gut? My theory here is that the virus enters the digestive system and the gut lining, and permeates throughout the body in this way.

Since it is anecdotally, but fairly well, documented that these viruses pass via saliva and other close contact, and not sexually per se, it stands to reason the virus passes respiratory and/or via the digestive system. My theory is that it infects some type of tissue that is present in the gut lining, subcutaneous fat tissues, connective tissues, nervous system, main organs (heart/spleen/liver) and primitive brain - perhaps some type of cell that is present in all of these?

 

[Hip]

Is it likely to be a pathogen that directly infects connective tissue? Or somehow causes the body to metabolize it to fight the infection elsewhere? I think the former.

Viruses enter cells courtesy of certain receptors on the cellular surface. In the case of CVB4 (the virus I believe I caught), this enters cells using the coxsackie and adenovirus receptor (CAR). So if a cell possesses CAR, then CVB can enter it.

The epithelial cells that line the respiratory and gastrointestinal tract possess CAR, so CVB can and does enter these. Astrocyte cells in the brain possess CAR, and CVB can enter these. The insulin-producing beta cells in the pancreas possess CAR, and CVB can enter these (and there is evidence that this leads to type 1 diabetes).

CVB in fact is able to infect a wide range of cells and organs.

And chronic CVB infections may be able to infect more even cell types still, because chronic CVB is a mutated virus which has a different lifecycle, and plays by different rules, and may be able to enter cells by means other than just the normal receptor entry mechanism. For example, chronic CVB may be able to enter and infect cells via cellular protrusions (as shown in the video in this post).


The connective tissue issues I think probably arise from elevations in connective tissue-destroying enzymes, which CVB infection is know to increase — see this post.

There is quite a big learning curve when it comes to understanding coxsackievirus B. It took me many years to get a basic understanding of CVB and other enteroviruses.

 

[feverdreams]

Wow, nice - I didn’t realize you were so deep into this already. So to make sure I understand, it seems probable based on that post that the fat flushing I experienced during the acute phase, and the ongoing skin thinning / wrinkling, is actually a side effect of the body trying to fight the infection? And if chronic, this will be on-going?

That’s really unfortunate. Was hoping this effect might mitigate over time but I see you mention in there you’re still experiencing it after 1-2 decades.

I’ve had Oxymatrine on my list to try - have you found positive effect from that supplement? I see it mentioned in another post

 

[feverdreams]

Want to say also:
1) I can corroborate your observations that, while it spreads slowly, it does so inexorably to people who have prolonged close contact. With this inevitability in homes and workplaces, it seems unfathomable that it could do anything but spread to most of humanity over time. And with the medical establishment mostly unable and u willing to accept the subclinical symptoms as anything but in the mind, it will surely continue to do so due to the ignorance caused as a result, and little progress will be made in helping it - though I do have faith in the technological advances that are nascent outside of traditional medicine in the coming years

2) I can also echo one of your other posts about how it makes you question your humanity (was just thinking about this a few days ago). Really makes you question who and what you are when that can be affected by a biological pathogen

 

[Hip]

it seems probable based on that post that the fat flushing I experienced during the acute phase, and the ongoing skin thinning / wrinkling, is actually a side effect of the body trying to fight the infection?

Yes, the connective tissue phenomena like skin wrinkling and periodontitis I think might be caused by connective tissue degrading enzymes that the immune system secretes in response to coxsackievirus B infection.

It might be possible to alleviate this connective tissue degradation by taking Periostat on a long term basis (Periostat is in fact just low-dose doxycycline), as this drug inhibits these enzymes. Though I have seen studies which found if you block one of these enzymes called MMP-9, then the CVB infection actually gets worse; though other studies found blocking MMP-9 made the CVB infection better.

I am not sure how weight gain or weight loss arises (both can occur in ME/CFS). Weight gain on the belly is linked to leptin resistance (where the hypothalamus has a reduced response to leptin), so that might be one mechanism.

I’ve had Oxymatrine on my list to try - have you found positive effect from that supplement?

I did not help me, but it only makes substantial improvements in around 1 in 3 ME/CFS patients. Worth trying.

Really makes you question who and what you are when that can be affected by a biological pathogen

It does. But in the light of my experience of an infectious pathogen permanently altering mental state, I look at the world with different eyes: if I see someone who, for example, has an irritable and grumpy personality, or who is suffering depression, or is an anxious person etc, it makes me wonder whether that's just their personality, or whether a pathogen they caught at some point in their life might be responsible.

 

[Hip]

And with the medical establishment mostly unable and u willing to accept the subclinical symptoms as anything but in the mind, it will surely continue to do so due to the ignorance caused as a result

When it comes to linking infection with mental symptoms, one of the problems is that psychiatrists are notorious for assuming that mental symptoms must have mental causes. Few psychiatrists ever conceive that the cause of a mental symptom like depression or anxiety might be a physical factor in the brain, such as an infection. Though some of the younger generation are more broad-minded, and interested in physical causes of mental symptoms.

I've also written to lots of enterovirus virologists explaining the high incidence of chronic mental health issues that my virus triggered in the people it infected, but unfortunately none showed much interest.

 

[Hip]

By the way, @feverdreams, I don't know if you saw the updates I put on my chronic sore throat / mood virus website about a newly-discovered type of coxsackievirus B4 called CVB4 genotype V.

I am not quite sure what constitutes a new strain of a virus, and what constitutes a new genotype of a virus, but a new genotype is a more substantial change than a new strain. This new genotype of CVB4 was discovered circulating in China in 2014 (see this study).

That study notes that CVB4 strains belonging to genotype II, which were once common in Europe and the Americas, disappeared and gave way to genotype III and IV strains, so III and IV appear to be the dominant circulating strains in the world at present.

However, they study authors found that all Chinese CVB4 strains belonged to a newly identified genotype called genotype V.

So I wonder if this Chinese CVB4 genotype V might be the nasty virulent and neurotropic virus I caught? My blood tests (by the neutralization method) showed high titers to CVB4 (1:1024), even 13 years after I caught my virus.


(Note that Dr John Chia discovered it is only neutralization-type antibody blood tests which are sensitive enough to detect these chronic elevated antibody titers in ME/CFS patients; ELISA, IFA and particularly CFT are not sensitive enough). The neutralization method is the gold standard method of detecting antibodies).

 

[Everydayimsuffering]

Hey guys I just joined the forum. Ive spoke with hip on his page on wordpress. Anyways would either one of you guys be willing to cover your face and speak about what your going through? Im trying to make this public.

 

[feverdreams]

@Hip just seeing your last post - interesting. Could that be the China virus? They didn’t seem to mention symptoms.

@Everydayimsuffering
Personally, no, for a number of reasons.

First of all there was a forum where many people participated for many years who held the same hope you did, reaching out to doctors, media, etc. Nothing ever came of it. I found it just before the creator shut it down as he said the forum depressed him and accomplished nothing.

My personal observation is that our current medical establishment recognizes cold/flu viruses, then those that are considered deadly, and almost nothing in between.

Look at how the Chinese government squashed the complaints of its citizens who caught the virus. Granted, it’s China, but all the accounts of doctor’s visits I’ve heard in the US and UK have the same response.

We are on the cusp of a personal health revolution where startups and AI are going to open new world’s of personalized diagnostics and medicine. That is what I personally hold hope for, and maybe a few rogue doctors like Dr Chia who are willing to think outside the box.

The most benefit I’ve experienced has come from health through food, particularly gut heath optimization, and meditation.

 

[Sidny]

Viruses enter cells courtesy of certain receptors on the cellular surface. In the case of CVB4 (the virus I believe I caught), this enters cells using the coxsackie and adenovirus receptor (CAR). So if a cell possesses CAR, then CVB can enter it.

The epithelial cells that line the respiratory and gastrointestinal tract possess CAR, so CVB can and does enter these. Astrocyte cells in the brain possess CAR, and CVB can enter these. The insulin-producing beta cells in the pancreas possess CAR, and CVB can enter these (and there is evidence that this leads to type 1 diabetes).

CVB in fact is able to infect a wide range of cells and organs.

And chronic CVB infections may be able to infect more even cell types still, because chronic CVB is a mutated virus which has a different lifecycle, and plays by different rules, and may be able to enter cells by means other than just the normal receptor entry mechanism. For example, chronic CVB may be able to enter and infect cells via cellular protrusions (as shown in the video in this post).


The connective tissue issues I think probably arise from elevations in connective tissue-destroying enzymes, which CVB infection is know to increase — see this post.

There is quite a big learning curve when it comes to understanding coxsackievirus B. It took me many years to get a basic understanding of CVB and other enteroviruses.

Wow.

This sort of information never ceases to amaze me. With this type of science it’s no wonder a single viral infection can wreak so much havoc and be tied to a plethora of chronic diseases. It’s unfortunate the medical complex isn’t focusing more on chronic pathogens as drivers of disease.

It makes me feel a majority of the current ME/CFS research is largely irrelevant as it focuses on downstream effects not treating or curing the root cause (for example- chronic intracellular enteroviral infections)

 

[Sidny]

It does. But in the light of my experience of an infectious pathogen permanently altering mental state, I look at the world with different eyes: if I see someone who, for example, has an irritable and grumpy personality, or who is suffering depression, or is an anxious person etc, it makes me wonder whether that's just their personality, or whether a pathogen they caught at some point in their life might be responsible.

That’s a very intuitive and perceptive perspective to have, I find my self thinking very similarly after my mental state was so severely altered as a result of the viral infection that entered my central nervous system. Thanks in part to critical thinkers and great observationalists such as yourself, I was able to realize there might be an actual scientific and pathobiological basis behind the sudden personality changes I experienced, rather than the psychosomatic model so favored in today’s society.

 

[Hazeleyes99]

@Hip just seeing your last post - interesting. Could that be the China virus? They didn’t seem to mention symptoms.

@Everydayimsuffering
Personally, no, for a number of reasons.

First of all there was a forum where many people participated for many years who held the same hope you did, reaching out to doctors, media, etc. Nothing ever came of it. I found it just before the creator shut it down as he said the forum depressed him and accomplished nothing.

My personal observation is that our current medical establishment recognizes cold/flu viruses, then those that are considered deadly, and almost nothing in between.

Look at how the Chinese government squashed the complaints of its citizens who caught the virus. Granted, it’s China, but all the accounts of doctor’s visits I’ve heard in the US and UK have the same response.

We are on the cusp of a personal health revolution where startups and AI are going to open new world’s of personalized diagnostics and medicine. That is what I personally hold hope for, and maybe a few rogue doctors like Dr Chia who are willing to think outside the box.

The most benefit I’ve experienced has come from health through food, particularly gut heath optimization, and meditation.

Will you talk some more about gut health and foods?

 

[Insajad]

Hi all,

For those of you who know @Hip and have read his blog, he has done a fantastic job detailing the effects of the 'Sore Throat / Mood Virus' - I believe I have this or the China "HIV-like" virus, most likely the latter, though I believe the two are closely related.

The weird part is that initially I developed the classic post-exertional malaise, so bad in fact that i had to lay down for 2-3 hours after working out, and had very bad bouts of tachyardia. Now (6-12 months later), instead I wake up groggy and cloudy headed for most of the morning, and then I feel more clear headed after I exercise.

The symptoms of these two illnesses are well documented on the internet, in no small part because they seem to both induce incredibly detrimental mental effects. I'll spare you my timeline of symptoms, as I've luckily finished that stage of the illness - the uncontrollable mental anxiety, paranoia, suicidal ideation, etc. I'm now just left with lower energy, anhedonia, more depressed mood and lower libido.

However, I believe I have discovered certain patterns from my illness and those who I've unfortunately given it to around me. I'm not sure why people are not connecting certain dots, and I would like to posit what I believe to be certain impacts, and see if the collective intelligence of this forum can help garner further insights via inductive reasoning.

Here goes:
- Connective Tissue: these illnesses unquestionably have impact on connective tissue, and/or subcutaneous layers of fat. In the acute stage, I had massive amounts of ketones in my urine as I lost an unhealthy amount of weight in a matter of weeks. Aside from the skin thinning / wrinkling symptoms that are well documented as mentioned above, later others around me developed clear signs of connective tissue problems such as plantar fasciitis in their feet, or rapid onset degeneration of hip tissue leading to a diagnosis of needing immediate hip replacement.

- Hormones / Neurotransmitters: I know unequivocally that these are impacted by the illness. I followed the trail of my symptoms and it was eventually discovered that I was completely deficient in Epinephrine and Norepinephrine, which apparently is the result of Dopamine not being converted to these two neurotransmitters. Another I have unfortunately infected before realizing it (female) all of a sudden bled non-stop vaginally for many months, and had to take high levels of progesterone to get it to stop. Doctors could not figure out why. In addition, reports from both viruses display weight loss, followed by weight gain around the belly, which is usually related to hormones (unless there is a direct infection of tissue elsewhere in the body so the body stores the fat elsewhere? But that seems like a reach and hormones make more sense, since I know for sure they are impacted).

- Anxiety / Anhedonia / Suicidal Ideation: I suspect these are somehow related to the primitive brain stem / HPA axis and related to hormones above. Again, I do not know if it is a direct infection or the systems being thrown off (sympathetic / parasympathetic)

- White Coated Tongue: This seems to be part of what makes the China sufferers believe it is related to HIV. However, Candida coated tongue occurs in late staged AIDs, not early HIV infection. In addition, in my own infection I discovered that it was not candida as it did not respond to anti-fungals, but rather a seeming bacterial imbalance. I discovered that Chinese Traditional Medicine considers this to be caused by a spleen imbalance

- Liver / Spleen pain: Initially I presumed they were swollen; now I wonder if the loss of connective tissue is actually causing them to have harder contact with the ribs or other surrounding organs (maybe a crazy theory)

- Spine: I had a bout of viral (?) meningitis. It did happen after taking Doxycycline. Initially I thought it was a reaction to the medicine, then I wondered if it was herx reaction. Now I wonder if it simply lowered my immune system and allowed the virus to spread further and faster. Now I have to do chiro every 1-2 weeks or my spine stiffens up to the point of significant distraction.

My questions:
1) Is it likely to be a pathogen that directly infects connective tissue? Or somehow causes the body to metabolize it to fight the infection elsewhere? I think the former.
2) Is there a type of tissue that is present through the skin, nervous system, HPA axis, and possibly the gut? My theory here is that the virus enters the digestive system and the gut lining, and permeates throughout the body in this way.

Since it is anecdotally, but fairly well, documented that these viruses pass via saliva and other close contact, and not sexually per se, it stands to reason the virus passes respiratory and/or via the digestive system. My theory is that it infects some type of tissue that is present in the gut lining, subcutaneous fat tissues, connective tissues, nervous system, main organs (heart/spleen/liver) and primitive brain - perhaps some type of cell that is present in all of these?

Hello fevetdreams,
I also had ketones in mu urine during the onset in 2016. Now I also have skin elasticity loss, muscle loss, fat loss and from 3 months ago I have inflammation in the gut seen in colonoscopy. Patchy erythema in colon and small intestines and also a mall hyperplastic polyp already removed during colonoscopy. I m so scared from the Chinese hiv like virus. In a internet article that I have read this virus seems to cause colon cancer after 5 to 7 years. What about you? Is your health better?

 

[Uknmy]

I've got this thing too (5.5 years). The fat loss and skin thinning is getting really bad.

 

[Insajad]

Hello uknmy,
How you got this virus? For me it was after a sexual encounter in April 2016. All STD tests done nothing is positive. Great deterioration in my health from this date. Fat loss especially in the face and lower legs, skin thinning and wrinkles in eyes, too much sneezing and burning feeling in my nose, fat in the abdomen, gut inflammation etc...

 

[Insajad]

@Hip
Does your virus can cause inflammation in large and small intestines?
I m suffering from gut Inflammation from Dec 2019. I was infected in April 2016. Colonoscopy done and there is patchy erythema in my colon, Small tiny nodule of 2 mm, inflammation also in the small intestines and ulceration. In hystopathology it s written indeterminate inflammatory bowel disease (inflammation caused by much lymphocytes in the gut) I m really scared to end with a colon cancer. I have read that's the Chinese hiv like virus cause colon cancer after 5 to 7 years inflammation occurs in the gut and there is a tendency of colon cancer.

 

[Hip]

Does your virus can cause inflammation in large and small intestines?

One person who caught my coxsackie B4 virus developed chronic gastritis, and two people developed intestinal perforations which required emergency surgery.

But no cases of colon or stomach cancer in over 30 people with my virus.

I have not read anything about the Chinese virus causing colon cancer. It may just be some pure speculation, so I would not pay any attention. In fact coxsackievirus B can actually help destroy cancer (oncolytic) — see here.

 

[Insajad]

@Hip
https://www.ntdtv.com/gb/2016/04/30/a1264887.html.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Connective Tissue: these illnesses unquestionably have impact on connective tissue, and/or subcutaneous layers of fat.

Agree- this is a huge issue in my body, have had ME for decades but it worsened about 3 years ago....and thats when all this profound weakening set in. This tissue is also, in my opinion, a communication pathway within the body...

I lost 45 pounds...by eating less...over a number of years, but then I got incredibly weak- and deficient.. and now have few muscles, very weak ligaments, my neck vertebrae are popcorn each nite. Seems like I am always eating and it has zero effect on my weight at this point. I weight what I did in high school.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

White Coated Tongue

this symptom differs from "candida" in the mouth. They aren't the same things in my opinion and experience.

white coated tongue is related to dampness...and Yin deficiency.

Should get it checked out by an expert on Chinese Traditional Herbal medicine