Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

[leela]

I'd like to pipe in to say a coupla quick things:

-There are other threads specific to going off clonazepam (too sicky to go look for them now)

-and also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned here is Cheney's thought which I find interesting and kind of resonant for me (as we are indeed all different.)
His take is that this drug is not addictive if you need it (yes, you become dependent because there is a specific neurological need.)
If and when you have addressed the underlying thing causing that need, tapering off should be simple and easy, a non-event.

Going to such lengths as Freddd describes would for me be impossibly complex, but also sounds like an indication that the substance is still needed by the body, and so maybe not worth all that effort. Since the withdrawal symptoms people are describing seem to be very similar to the symptoms one is trying to treat with the drug in the first place, to my mind that furthers the case for the continued need for that medication. (Bear in mind I am someone who generally refuses any kind of pharmaceutical whatsoever.)

It's just a thought, not trying to debunk anyone here. Just thought it was worthy of adding to the pot.

 

[dmholmes]

Also, do you think its possible that a person taking clonazepam would experience withdrawal throughout the day, after their nightly dose starts to wear off?

Seems plausible, but not sure since it has such a long half-life.

If so, there are many symptoms that might eventually be resolved with successful cessation.

I'm hoping so on that one. I'm down to .125 (1/8 of .5 tablet).

 

[Dreambirdie]

one thing that hasn't been mentioned here is Cheney's thought which I find interesting and kind of resonant for me (as we are indeed all different.)
His take is that this drug is not addictive if you need it (yes, you become dependent because there is a specific neurological need.)
If and when you have addressed the underlying thing causing that need, tapering off should be simple and easy, a non-event.

This is where I find Cheney's thinking to be a bit dangerous. The benzos are HIGHLY ADDICTIVE drugs. So to make a statement that it *SHOULD BE* a simple and easy non-event to taper off of them sounds like a deep dive into de-nial. I think patients SHOULD instead be warned of the risks they are taking, when they chose to take benzos, and be prepped for the side effects and withdrawal symptoms they may encounter on the way off.

I know some people find them necessary for sleep and anxiety, but I think it's a good idea to go into that territory with your eyes open. (no pun intended)

 

[leela]

This is where I find Cheney's thinking to be a bit dangerous. The benzos are HIGHLY ADDICTIVE drugs. So to make a statement that it *SHOULD BE* a simple and easy non-event to taper off of them sounds like a deep dive into de-nial. I think patients SHOULD instead be warned of the risks they are taking, when they chose to take benzos, and be prepped for the side effects and withdrawal symptoms they may encounter on the way off.

I know some people find them necessary for sleep and anxiety, but I think it's a good idea to go into that territory with your eyes open. (no pun intended)

I think the more accurate statement is they have the *potential* to be highly addictive drugs. I personally do not feel at all addicted to them after about a year of taking small amounts, and I never *ever* feel an inclination to abuse them. I think it is a matter of body chemistry, personality traits, and physiological need that determines whether such a drug is addictive to a person or not.
And remember there is a difference between addiction and dependence.

To be clear, the "should be" were my words, not Cheney's. In the article I read, if I remember correctly, he stated he had noted that withdrawal had not been a problem for the majority of patients he treated once the underlying neurological cause was corrected.

 

[Freddd]

From this site:

http://www.prozactruth.com/clonazepam.htm


"Many people attempt to taper off Klonopin by switching to Valium.

It is not recommended. You will go into withdrawal on the Klonopin

and introduce a new medication on top of that which will probably

have side effects of it's own."

Still looking into this.

Freddd, I've had such a good response physically to the low carb diet that I don't like the sound of mixing flour and sugar into capsules with clonazepam, even in samll amounts. There's got to be another way. Can you forego the flour and sugar?

Thanks for the links Freddd and Jenbooks. I'll need them. This is kinda stressing me.

Hi Rockt,

I supplied over 1000 tapers to people who were coming off the usual assortment of benzos. There were people who absolutely were unable to taper Clonazepam. For them, the only way was to do a crossover taper to valium and then taper the valium and being successful at the taper. I was working with a man who taught a CME course to doctors about how to taper drugs. Dr Ashton also agrees with the crossover to Valium. There is a similar problem coming off of Fentanyl because of how it hits the receptors and the patches only come in fixed sizes. Fentanyl is easier to taper if one crosses over to morphine first, dealing with part of the taper at that time and then the rest of the taper in reducing to the morphine.

Having dealt with so many people through the years I have to say that tapering the drug a person is on may be a lot more difficult for them than to do a crossover taper to a different drug. Also there are DOC problems. It is much easier to taper a person from a drug they dislike than their drug of choice. So people with hydrocodone as the DOC might never succeed in tapering because they love the "burst of energy" they get from the histamine whereas morphine makes them sick to their stomach with each dose so they are in a hurry to want off.

As far as the dilution material, any dry non-reactive powdered material will work. So grind up a mineral tablet or something to dilute it with. You just need to get pretty good approximate measures and when you get down to taking one pill and dividing it into 32 equal portions or 128 portions then this is the only way to do it. What you don't want is something of a terribly different consistency since then it is hard to get an evenly distributed mix.

When you use 100 of the pill in this way, it is easy to calculate how much you need for the entire taper. Take the taper rate and divide into 100 and that gives the total number of days at the initial dose of medication. So a 10% taper of 300mg/day is 3000mg for a 10% taper. A 1% taper of 0.5mg dose= 50mg needed (100x0.5) for the entire 1% taper.

 

[Freddd]

Also, do you think its possible that a person taking clonazepam would experience withdrawal throughout the day, after their nightly dose starts to wear off? If so, there are many symptoms that might eventually be resolved with successful cessation.

Anyone experienced relief of some symptoms following cessation?

Hi Rockt,

do you think its possible that a person taking clonazepam would experience withdrawal throughout the day, after their nightly dose

First, that possibility is one reason to use more doses per day rather than fewer. While that doesn't normally happen at the normal daily dose of Clonazepam or diazepam, it can for hypesensitive persons. That is why these longer halflife meds have a smoother taper. Xanax and Temazepam are very difficult ones from that point of view with very strict compliance to schedule needed to actually taper them. It is better to not go into withdrawal at all than to yo-yo in and out of withdrawal. The yo-yo tends to increase in oscillation magnitude, The downward pressure on accommodation is had by hovering just above the withdrawal symptom level. When a person goes into withdrawal a frequent reaction is to take a full dose which makes progress almost impossible. That is more likely when it is their DOC as well, any excuse is all that's needed.

 

[Freddd]

I think the more accurate statement is they have the *potential* to be highly addictive drugs. I personally do not feel at all addicted to them after about a year of taking small amounts, and I never *ever* feel an inclination to abuse them. I think it is a matter of body chemistry, personality traits, and physiological need that determines whether such a drug is addictive to a person or not.
And remember there is a difference between addiction and dependence.

To be clear, the "should be" were my words, not Cheney's. In the article I read, if I remember correctly, he stated he had noted that withdrawal had not been a problem for the majority of patients he treated once the underlying neurological cause was corrected.

Hi Leela,

A taper at a suitable rate is a complete non-event assuming the drug is no longer performing a useful purpose. Tapering somebody from morphine is easy when they are not in pain but if terrible pain is returning, near impossible. Tapering somebody from Dilantin is easy unless seizures return. The special problem with benzos is that too fast a taper can cause unpredictable seizures that sometimes are fatal.

I consulted on one case in which an infant was on a two week seizure cycle, like a clockwork. I analysed all the info the very upset parents were able to give me and figured out what was happening. He had an instance of seizures and the ER had dosed him with valium to stop the seizures. Thereafter he had seizures every two weeks right on schedule, each time stopped with valium. They were already accusing the parents of Munchhausen by proxy and preparing to take the child.

It turned out that the child developed single dose accommodation to valium and was seizing each time he hit that same 5-10 halflife barrier. I worked out a taper schedule for them and they were able to convince the doc to try it. It worked. The docs were inducing the seizures by believing that single dose accommodation to valium wasn't possible.

With a successful b12/folate protocol many medications become not needed. Many of those, including SSRIs can't just be stopped. The taper schedules given out by doctor's offices are usually way to quick and cause all sorts of problems. So while it will feel very good to get off the no longer needed meds and be done with all their lousy side effects, it has to be done carefully and slowly.

Trying to go too fast is the number one reason for abandoning a taper, often with a binge if we are dealing with a DOC.

 

[leela]

A taper at a suitable rate is a complete non-event assuming the drug is no longer performing a useful purpose.

Thanks, Freddd, this is the simple point I was trying to make through the terrible brainfog today.
Glad you were able to articulate it so simply and clearly

 

[Freddd]

I'd like to pipe in to say a coupla quick things:

-There are other threads specific to going off clonazepam (too sicky to go look for them now)

-and also, one thing that hasn't been mentioned here is Cheney's thought which I find interesting and kind of resonant for me (as we are indeed all different.)
His take is that this drug is not addictive if you need it (yes, you become dependent because there is a specific neurological need.)
If and when you have addressed the underlying thing causing that need, tapering off should be simple and easy, a non-event.

Going to such lengths as Freddd describes would for me be impossibly complex, but also sounds like an indication that the substance is still needed by the body, and so maybe not worth all that effort. Since the withdrawal symptoms people are describing seem to be very similar to the symptoms one is trying to treat with the drug in the first place, to my mind that furthers the case for the continued need for that medication. (Bear in mind I am someone who generally refuses any kind of pharmaceutical whatsoever.)

It's just a thought, not trying to debunk anyone here. Just thought it was worthy of adding to the pot.

going to such lengths as Freddd describes would for me be impossibly complex, but also sounds like an indication that the substance is still needed by the body, and so maybe not worth all that effort.

A fast taper on a benzo can cause fatal seizures. The accommodation creates the "need". A slow taper is needed after the real need is past because fast ones always cause problems and can cause seizures and death. With opioids you can taper at any rate you can stand the withdrawal. Jail withdrawal therapy is throw them in a cell with just a blanket and let them suffer for 5 days to teach the addict a lesson. They think everybody on opioids is an "addict" automatically. They have ended up killing people with that philosophy with some drugs.


Tapering after the medical need has passed is a total non-event as long as a person can take the meds on a schedule suitable for the type of medication it is with steadily reducing doses. It's only "complicated" because they don't package it like birth control pills or "dose packs" of steroids. You could pay a compounding pharmacy hundreds of dollars to set up all the tapering doses needed in a numbered sequence of day and time to take it. I suggest that a person get a sports watch or utility timer with autoreset countdown timer that they set of the interval each day and just take the pills for the day when the alarm goes off. This can easily be done with a smart phone app these days.

 

[jenbooks]

I think the more accurate statement is they have the *potential* to be highly addictive drugs. I personally do not feel at all addicted to them after about a year of taking small amounts, and I never *ever* feel an inclination to abuse them. I think it is a matter of body chemistry, personality traits, and physiological need that determines whether such a drug is addictive to a person or not.
And remember there is a difference between addiction and dependence.

To be clear, the "should be" were my words, not Cheney's. In the article I read, if I remember correctly, he stated he had noted that withdrawal had not been a problem for the majority of patients he treated once the underlying neurological cause was corrected.

I agree--the potential. I think my physiology is such I was highly responsive to them and got so "dependent" or "addicted" at a level too high for my own body, that I had to taper very slowly. At about 12 mg, my own sleep patterns began to reassert themselves. So I have a feeling that was the crossover line for me (beyond that, it would begin to be toxic).

I've had friends on klonipin for years, who went off it cold turkey for various reasons (pregnancy, hospitalization) with *no* side effects!

It depends on your physiology and genes.

In addition, my read of Cheney was that the benzos helped quench the toxic excitatory cascade of CFS related to glutamate upregulation. It was better to use benzos than have your nervous system destroyed.

 

[jenbooks]

By the way, I have skimmed the posts that give directions on tapering as I already use the water titration method.

I'll tell you it is NOT complex. It's really easy. You just blend the powder of your regular dose in a small portable blender, and if you're starting a taper, start with just removing about 1% (I say that because that was the dose that my body could still sense). So if you are taking a 15 milligram pill, and it's in 100 cc of water that you measured by pouring it gently into a 100 cc cylinder and then into your blender, and you blend it up, siphon out just 1 cc. That's 1%. See how you sleep that night. If you are taking multiple doses a day, then only reduce one of the doses. Then if you tolerate that, reduce two of the doses. If you feel any withdrawal, stay at the dose for a week or two until stable. Then start on down. ITS SIMPLE. It only requires PATIENCE.

And by the way, I'm not convinced the majority need to crossover to Valium if they go this slow. The reasoning on Valium is that its half life is so long you won't have interdose withdrawal. But you know, even the short acting pills can have a half life of 12 hours or so. I guess some folks have to switch, but I suspect it's less than the standard advice suggests.

 

[Freddd]

With a lot of experience of both myself and others for whom I have supplied taper schedules, I would say that it is possible to speedup a clonazepam or valium taper and that is to switch to lorazepam. In that instance it takes the first 30 days to essentially get all the long halflife benzo out of the system so the level falls every day so lorazepam dose might not be changed at all the for 2 weeks, and then more slowly. The long halflife benzos are very similar to methadone for tapering. With lorazepam, the tail is much shorter because 10 halflife periods is about 2-3 days instead of 20-30 days so the body isn't loaded wioth long halflife drug and re-accommodating even as decreasing. The thing to look out for in benzo tapering is the "protracted withdrawal syndrome" with all sorts of uncomfortable pesky symptoms that won't kill you but can drag on for years.

 

[jenbooks]

Hi Freddd, I don't think there should be a taper schedule. Each body is individual and what I noticed while tapering to where I am now, is that it would go smoothly (each 1% drop) until some point, where the brain actively noticed the difference. At that point, withdrawal symptoms were in no way horrible, but sleep was more difficult. Until sleep resumed, and there were no symptoms, I'd stay at that dose. There is no reason to force a schedule on anybody. The body will tell you what it tolerates. So the process requires PATIENCE. If you think you have spent years getting addicted but should follow a set schedule to get off--then you may have trouble. If you say to your body, I'm listening to you, and I'll follow your lead. Let me know when you're uncomfortable and I'll give you time to adjust, you're better off. Once you throw the body into withdrawal, it takes a while and sometimes quite a while for it to recover. That's why people have protracted withdrawal syndromes imo.

 

[Rockt]

Thanks to everyone for your input... and... I'm still confused and worried.

Freddd, as always, your logic makes perfect sense. However, introducing another drug scares me. These things are DANGEROUS. But I won't rule it out, particularly because I read about Protracted Withdrawal Syndrome and that REALLY scares me.

Jenbooks, do you have a link on the water titration method? That would be very helpful right now.

So here is where I'm am at the moment:

Have been taking (1) .5mg pill/night for about 3-4 years, (I had earlier thought it was 5 yrs.). About 2 weeks ago I cut down to 3/4 of a pill + I added 1500mg, (2 750mg capsules), Gaba. Sleep was a little worse than usual but not terrible. Tried 1/2 pill Tuesday night and sleep was BAD and I felt horrible yesterday. Went back to 3/4 last night, (still with 750mg Gaba), slept much better, (not restful, never is, but better). I think the gaba might not be a good idea, so I was thinking about taking only 1 cap., (750mg), for a few nights and then cutting it out, but staying with 3/4 of a .5mg clonazapam for the forseeable future, unitl I can figure out how to taper properly.

What do you think?

 

[knackers323]

hi, I have tested high lead levels. would raising my methylation cycle be enough to clear the lead?

 

[jenbooks]

Rockt, try water titration. It allows you to go down by 1% at a time if you want. You'll find out what your body notices, and be able to go very slowly and evenly. Cutting a pill is much more crude.

Here's what you need:

1) Plastic cylinder, 100 ml.

http://www.amazon.com/100-Ml-Plastic-Cylinder-Graduated/dp/B002VT7TZW

Or if you don't think you'll break it, glass cylinder, 100 ml:

http://www.amazon.com/Graduated-Cylinder-All-Glass-100ml/dp/B0018QHBK2

Or buy both and see which one you like better.

2) Small portable battery operated blender

http://www.amazon.com/Twistir-Power-battery-operated-personal/dp/B001RDTCC6

3) Syringe. I'm not sure how much you'll be taking out so buy a couple different sizes

http://www.amazon.com/Excel-Intl-In...1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1302212811&sr=1-1

Scroll down on that Amazon page. When I first titrated I used a 5 cc syringe, removed my couple of cc ("ml") and then drank the rest. As I began to remove more, I graduated to a 20, then 35, then eventually 65 cc, and now I'm at the point that I remove 30 cc and THAT'S what I drink.

4) A few favorite cups. I use toddler cups. You can use small glasses as well. Whatever, just have all your tools in one place. And use smallish cups or glasses so it's easy to stick the syringe in and get your solution out. If you were to use a long tall glass and didn't have a lot of fluid, it would be more difficult.

5) A mortar and pestle to grind your pill into powder.

http://www.amazon.com/BIA-Cordon-Bl...1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1302212923&sr=1-1

I've found almost everything on Amazon so you can do one order.

Now. Take your pill, grind it to powder. Decant water into your cylinder, slowly so it stops at 100 cc. If you're a little over, then just pour a little out. When you're at 100 cc, pour that into your blender. Add your ground powder to the blender. Push the button for 30-60 seconds. Immediately pour the solution into one of your cups. Take your syringe, put it in your cup, and pull slowly so that you are removing whatever you choose to remove. 1 cc, 2 cc, whatever. Be sure to do this efficiently and within the first 30 seconds. The powder will remain in suspension for about 30 seconds then start to settle. Don't get nervous but keep an eye on that, or you won't get the accurate dose.

Drink the rest.

Done.
Don't go down by the large amount you did. It's too jarring to the body.

Go down by the smallest amount. See how you do. If you notice NO problem, then go down by twice the smallest amount, etc. As soon as you notice any symptoms, as long as they are mild and not horrible, then tolerate them and stay at that dose until you are totally okay with it. Then resume.

Have no time table. Just know it'll work over time.
By the way I use 100 cc cylinders as it's so easy to figure out percentage. 250 cc cylinders were recommended on the yahoo group, but maybe those folks were taking larger doses than me or something.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd, I don't think there should be a taper schedule. Each body is individual and what I noticed while tapering to where I am now, is that it would go smoothly (each 1% drop) until some point, where the brain actively noticed the difference. At that point, withdrawal symptoms were in no way horrible, but sleep was more difficult. Until sleep resumed, and there were no symptoms, I'd stay at that dose. There is no reason to force a schedule on anybody. The body will tell you what it tolerates. So the process requires PATIENCE. If you think you have spent years getting addicted but should follow a set schedule to get off--then you may have trouble. If you say to your body, I'm listening to you, and I'll follow your lead. Let me know when you're uncomfortable and I'll give you time to adjust, you're better off. Once you throw the body into withdrawal, it takes a while and sometimes quite a while for it to recover. That's why people have protracted withdrawal syndromes imo.

Hi Jenbooks,

You put words into my mouth and misunderstand the nature of this taper. I've handed out thousands of these custom calculated (by computer) tapers to people who have not been able to do other tapers. They virtually always succeed with these. I do not believe in a forced pace taper schedule of any kind. I don't know why you would assume a forced pace. That is not what I am doing and certainly never stated. With a calculated taper schedule, which merely gives the times a dose needs to be taken and the intervals if the 1% or any other rate is to be received, there is no coercion. Doctors do that. I include fallback instructions in case any withdrawal is experienced because it needs to be stopped ASAP to avoid problems. I also have provided 0.5% and 0.25% and a variety of custom rates to anybody mentioning such hypersensitivity. By schedule I mean a list of times to achieve the desired rate. It's no different than having a precalculated list of daily doses for a 1% schedule. You provide a "schedule" of dose size changes. Using a variable time method I provide a schedule of dose intervals to achieve the identical 1% or whatever drop. On a 24 hour basis the dose per day is the same. The variable interval design breaks up the conditioned response of the body to a medication at an expected time and works much better than a taper that leaves the times alone and only changes the dose size. Most people find keeping a dose they put in their mouth stable for weeks or months at a time much easier than the whole process of preparing a different sized dose several times each day leaving a lot of room for error. All they have to do is follow a schedule and make occasional changes in the dose each time a cycle is completed. Compliance with this kind of schedule was excellent, much more accurate and effective than a pill shaving/cutting schema. There is also zero wastage so a person with a limited supply of expensive medication or irreplaceable meds, they don't throw out a sizable percentage of each dose.

Sometimes people have to have a forced pace, for instance in opiods the doc will give then XX pills and that is it, goodby and good riddance. There is a lot of hostility around opioids these days. My son in law was cut off for late payment, no prescription until arrears are paid. In those cases I calculated the best I could with the parameters given to me in line with supply on hand. This happens far more than I would like to see. The real world demands it, not me.

In more civilized cases the person is given a month's supply to taper with on the way out the door. That can provid a 3.33% taper, comfy on opioid, dangerous on benzos.

Further with some medications there is a "knee", as certain biological systems become unsaturated. There is a specifc antidepressant who's name I don't remember at this moment, where everything changes suddenly between 25 and 30 mg. For that med I provided a second taper at a much lower rate, typically 0.1% to take over when that knee is reached until the bottom of the knee, and then it becomes linear again.

 

[Rockt]

Thank you so much to both of you, Jenbooks and Freddd. Freddd let's remember Jenbooks is trying to help too, as you are. And it's great that you both have contributed here - I really need help with this.

I'm going to try not to hog this post anymore with my withdrawal drama. I'll just say that I think my health will improve once I get off this dangerous drug.

And... just so you are aprised, ('cause I know you're all anxious to know ), stayed with 3/4 of .5mg last night, but cut the Gaba down, (from 1500mg to approx. 1100mg) - had a BAD night. Really poor sleep, in and out, vivid dreams, feel awful this morning. So I'm wondering if I should stay the course at 3/4 and keep trying to reduce the Gaba or go back up on the clonazepam and re-start tapering off. I hate to go back up, but I'm not sure what to do.

Thanks again.

 

[Rockt]

hi, I have tested high lead levels. would raising my methylation cycle be enough to clear the lead?

Hi Knackers.

I was tested and shown high for lead a few years ago. I underwent chelation and my test showed the level to be dramatically lower shortly after. However, i now understand thta the blood/brain barrier inhibits release of toxins and so lead is probably in my brain. I'm hoping the B12/methylfolate will help.

Hopefully Rich and Freddd comment on this becasue if anyone know it's them.

 

[jenbooks]

Hi Jenbooks,

You put words into my mouth and misunderstand the nature of this taper.

Okay, sorry if I misunderstood. My point is just listen to your body. I was prescribed my benzos by CAM integrative docs who understood and respected me, and I told them about my taper, and they just kept prescribing them. At about 8-9 mg temazepam I'm at less than most regular folks, and its a cheap generic, so they really never had a problem with continuing to prescribe to me, and leave it to me to continue my taper when and if my life settles down. Even when I was at 30 mg a night nobody seemed to think that was unusual but I knew it was bad for me as I began to get tolerance withdrawal.

If someone is on an expensive med that has negative social perception and they don't pay their bills and are faced with either sudden withdrawal or a scheduled taper, that's a different situation.

I'm just saying, that when you switch benzos, you are disturbing the system. First, some are processed differently (by the p450 system, in various ways, some might be more toxic to those with impaired detox), the shape of your receptor adapts to the benzo and therefore won't be adapted to the crossover benzo as well, etc. I understand the logic--valium has such a long half life, you'd have less trouble. But I felt it would cause me more trouble, and just stick with what my body knows.