Significant Improvement Story -- Focus on Thiamine Deficiency

Lolinda

J'aime nager dans le froid style Wim Hof.. 🏊‍♀️🙃
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B1 dietary needs should be calculated as a function of personal carb intake.
According to the WHO, the number is:

"The RDA for thiamine based on the energy intake is 0.4 mg/ 1000 kcal"


(If one eats those kcal as fat and not as carbs, then thiamine requirements will be less. I do not know how much less, but based on the biochemical explanations of Chris Masterjohn (thanks @Gondwanaland for the video) I could imagine 50%)


If you want details............
There is a lot of discussion on the details of that 0.4mg / 1000kcal number... So, if you want to dig deeper, here you go:

I. the attached WHO document says:
Foltz and others (1944) reported that thiamine deficiency occurred within 8 weeks in the majority of humans kept on an intake of 0.20 mg thiamine/1000 kcal or less (total intakes of 0.6 mg thiamine or less daily). The minimum requirement was stated as ranging from 0.33 to 0.45 mg thiamine/1000 kcal (1.0 to 1.5 mg thiamine daily) which was necessary for maintenance and for well-being.
Anderson and others (1986) recommended a minimum thiamine intake of 1.22 mg/day for men and 1.03 mg/day for women. Values for thiamine intake ranging between 0.2 and 0.5 mg per 1000 kcal have been reported as those needed to satisfy requirements. The large differences can be explained by differences in approach and in experimental procedures used to estimate thiamine requirements.

II. there is a book chapter on setting the recommendations for B1 requirements
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK114331/
No studies were found that examined the effect of energy intake on the thiamin requirement. Some studies provided thiamin in graded doses that kept the ratio of thiamin to energy constant for those studied who had different energy requirements. Other studies provided total amounts of thiamin (and sometimes energy) that were the same for all individuals. Sauberlich and colleagues (1979) adjusted activity levels rather than energy intake to maintain weight in their subjects. Several investigators examined their data to assess whether it would be better to express thiamin as an absolute value or in relation to energy. For example, Dick and colleagues (1958) reported that the coefficient of variation of the estimated thiamin requirement for adolescent boys was 14.2 percent/person, 15.5 percent/1,000 kcal, 27.5 percent/kg body weight, 19.5 percent/m2 surface area, and 19.2 percent/mg of creatinine excretion. Elsom and coworkers (1942) noted that they could not distinguish whether it was better to express thiamin in absolute values or per 1,000 kcal but that thiamin intake expressed per body weight did not discriminate between those who were deficient and those who were not. Anderson and colleagues (1986) presented evidence that expressing the thiamin requirements in absolute terms is more useful for predicting biochemical thiamin status than expressing it in relation to energy intake, and data from individuals presented by Henshaw and coworkers (1970) appear supportive.
Despite the lack of direct experimental data, the known biochemical function of thiamin as thiamin pyrophosphate (TPP) in the metabolism of carbohydrate suggests that at least a small (10 percent) adjustment to the estimated requirement to reflect differences in the average energy utilization and size of men and women, a 10 percent increase in the requirement to cover increased energy utilization during pregnancy, and a small increase to cover the energy cost of milk production during lactation may be necessary. It has been observed that during periods of starvation such as in war, larger individuals present signs of beriberi more rapidly than do those with smaller body builds, indicating their greater needs for thiamin and other energy-related nutrients (Burgess, 1946). Many studies report thiamin intake per 1,000 kcal; others report total intake. Thus, the evidence below is presented as it was done in the studies and not because the ratio is considered important
 

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pattismith

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My blood lactate was initially a little bit high ~2,3 mmol/l but nowadays it normal (<1,5 mmol/l). I really don't know what is responsible for this normalization. It could be the benfothiamine...
Was it fasting lactatemia? Did you check post prandial or post exercise lactatemia?
The supplements that are supposed to lower lactates are L carnitine, thiamine, vit B2, coenzyme Q10. I also tested my lactates when I take a boost of cortisone, and they stay low all day long...
 

Emootje

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Was it fasting lactatemia? Did you check post prandial or post exercise lactatemia?
I did approximately 100 lactate tests (in rest) and still can't see a clear correlation :grumpy: Eating does not seem to influence the lactate levels. Exercise does have an effect:
Lactate (rest): 1.2 mmol/l
Lactate (after a shower): 2.3 mmol/l
Lactate (after a 40 km bike ride): 5.8 mmol/l
 

pattismith

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I did approximately 100 lactate tests (in rest) and still can't see a clear correlation :grumpy: Eating does not seem to influence the lactate levels. Exercise does have an effect:
Lactate (rest): 1.2 mmol/l
Lactate (after a shower): 2.3 mmol/l
Lactate (after a 40 km bike ride): 5.8 mmol/l
a rise after a shower doesn't seem "normal", but a rise after 40 km bike ride would occur for anyone!

What would be interesting would be to know your blood lactates 5 mn after exercise and 30 mn, to see if your lactates go low between the two tests, which should happen for a normal people.
 

Emootje

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a rise after a shower doesn't seem "normal"
I feel very drained/fatigue after a shower so I'm glad this feeling is objectifiable by my lactate meter...
What would be interesting would be to know your blood lactates 5 mn after exercise and 30 mn, to see if your lactates go low between the two tests, which should happen for a normal people.
At the moment I'm out of strips... will test the 5 and 30 min lactate post exercise next month...
 

Valentijn

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At the moment I'm out of strips... will test the 5 and 30 min lactate post exercise next month...
My observation was that mine would rise and dip repeatedly, observed at 5 minute intervals. So it might be lower like it should be at 30 minutes, but abnormally higher at 25 and 35 minutes :p
 

pattismith

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My observation was that mine would rise and dip repeatedly, observed at 5 minute intervals. So it might be lower like it should be at 30 minutes, but abnormally higher at 25 and 35 minutes :p
I never had such a strange thing with my Accutrend Plus analyzer, that sounds very strange to me :lol:
 

pattismith

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very interesting! I wonder if this strange curve may be associated with a failure of reproductibility with your analyzer, or with a problem of sample (drop) size...


I do my own samples with an insuline syringe, because the analyzer needs very big drops, and I was unable to have a good drop from my fnger. If the drop is not big enough, it could distort (lower) your result...:thumbdown:
 

Gondwanaland

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I feel very drained/fatigue after a shower so I'm glad this feeling is objectifiable by my lactate meter...
Do you think it could be something you absorb transdermally?

I always soak my fresh produce in water and vinegar and rinse in water before storing. I used to get extremely fatigued after doing it until I started wearing rubber gloves. Fatigue gone. I think the vinegar absorbed transdermally and destroyed B1. I am also extremely sensitive to scented soaps and shampoos, so my body care items are picked carefully. Sometimes just their smell cause me fatigue (if it is due to salicylates, I am not sure about their influence on B1, but they definetly deplete B5).
 
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Valentijn

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very interesting! I wonder if this strange curve may be associated with a failure of reproductibility with your analyzer, or with a problem of sample (drop) size...
It's "The Edge" which has a good reputation for accuracy. Also my morning readings are consistently normal as expected, and testing twice at the same time gave the same result. The blood sample area was also filled consistently.

Vink's publication showed similar peaking weirdness, though I don't think he tested as frequently following his rather strenuous trip to the toilet.
 

Gondwanaland

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I still feel very fatigue if I don't use soap/shampoo, so no. For me, I think it's more a combination of not using my second heart (calf muscles) and the diving reflex (energy preservation state).
I have read that in some European countries there is chloramine in the water, which can cause some nasty effects for susceptible people.
 

pattismith

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It's "The Edge" which has a good reputation for accuracy. Also my morning readings are consistently normal as expected, and testing twice at the same time gave the same result. The blood sample area was also filled consistently.

Vink's publication showed similar peaking weirdness, though I don't think he tested as frequently following his rather strenuous trip to the toilet.
I have not done extensive post exercise testing, so I may be surprised by doing it, I will try to see if I find the same you do! Do you test every 5 minutes? I don't think I could do so many samples as taking blood from my veins in my forearms is doing some harms in the long run...o_O
 

Valentijn

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I have not done extensive post exercise testing, so I may be surprised by doing it, I will try to see if I find the same you do! Do you test every 5 minutes? I don't think I could do so many samples as taking blood from my veins in my forearms is doing some harms in the long run...o_O
Yes, I did a sample immediately before exercise, immediately after, and then every 5 minutes. I did it fasting in the morning with no food or meds, just water. Then rested on the couch with my feet up for the rest of the blood samples.

I used a heart rate monitor to get my heart rate up to at least 130 in the first minute (my anaerobic threshold) and it stayed at 140-145 for the remaining three minutes. I did up-and-down stepping on the first step of the stairway, so I could hold onto the railing and control my heart rate with my pace.
 

pattismith

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Luckily I have still control over my breathing when I'm showering :p, it's the bradycardia and vasoconstriction I'm more worried about...
Cardiac-vascular system and the diving reflex:
I was kidding about the breathing, I didn't realized that some people can have such reactions in a shower, but maybe only when it's cold? I cannot go anymore swimming for a long time now, bathing in "cold" water just cut my breath away!

Do you experience tachycardia and vasoconstriction when you go in the shower?:thumbdown:
Hot shower would rather provoke vasodilation, but if you have evidences of a vasoconstriction reaction, your lactates from fingers will only reflect the fingers' anoxia consecutive to vasoconstriction. It won't reflect any general cellular metabolism problem. If you are not sure, it would be easy to compare your lactates from fingers and from blood veins after a shower and see if you have a gap between...:)