Seeing Dr John Chia on Friday, What Questions Should I Ask?

sometexan84

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How much do you think the CBV2, EBV, HHV-6, Echovirus, and CpN titers are contributing to my illness in comparison with the CBV4 titers?

Not much if at all, it's the CBV4. The other titers are likely past infections.
It's an answer like this that makes me question Dr. Chia. And I'm not just referring to this question/answer, I mean for all I know he looked at all the labs and interpreted them correctly as all past infections.

But I've seen enough on Dr Chia to know that he is oddly dismissive of other possible CFS causes. Seems like he's always like "No, it's enterovirus.". Um, okay.....?

I for one, have fully active enterovirus and EBV infections. And there's no way I could reach 100% just treating one or the other.

Of course, there is aways the issue that once patients recover, they may lose interest in the ME/CFS community, and just get on with their lives.
That's the case w/ everyone though. Everyone and every virus and every condition.

But then how to explain Chia's claims? I don't think he's actively misleading people to promote a supplement he sells at cost. That doesn't seem to be in his character. I also don't think he's blind to his own patient population's level of improvement.
Probably not. But aside from the money, it's about his lifelong research. And I have a theory that in the past 10 yrs, he's realized that his theories and research weren't as important as he initially had thought. Which might be why we don't hear a ton from him these days. And I also believe he qualifies his patients, which could skew results. Think about all the things he said about that...

66% effectiveness against coxsackie B. Better in younger patients (considered 30 young), better for men, people early into the illness, and African Americans / Hispanics.
He's also said it's better in people that are fatigued w/out pain. He clearly has looked into this a lot and knows who it will and will not work on, which could skew the success rates.

Switching into brainstorming mode for a moment, the first crazy idea that springs to mind is that because Dr Chia is based in Southern California, then assuming many of his patients are locals, they are going have higher sunshine exposure, which leads to higher levels of vitamin D, which effects Th1/Th2 in complex ways.
Sorry to criticize something you wrote 3 yrs ago Hip. But.. that's a bit of a stretch...
 

sometexan84

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Do you think my HHV-6 (21.38), EBV (547), and CpN IgG (1:256) titers are significant? And if so can Equilibrant treat those infections as well?

These levels are not significant, but he has seen Equilibrant substantially bring down HHV-6 titers in another patient.
And again, Dr Chia is totally dismissive of this.

HHV-6 (21.38) - Since these number look like ELISA, it's likely <0.90 is the Negative, which would make this a 24-fold titer increase. Are you kidding me?

EBV (547) - Uh, this just looks like VCA IgG or something, so it's not relevant. Would love to see the other numbers though

CpN IgG (1:256) - This is supposed to mean active infection. Not insignificant w/ all the studies out there on this.

I can see how he could say the EBV level is insignificant. But the other two? They appear to be active infections. And are both commonly associated w/ CFS symptoms.

My recent blood test shows elevated pyruvate and very low cis-aconitate implying metabolic dysfunction in the Krebs cycle and low ATP output. Besides using Equilibrant and IVIG upstream, is there a way to directly treat the aconitase enzyme?

Thinks this is caused by enteroviruses
Of course he does.
 

consuegra

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It's an answer like this that makes me question Dr. Chia. And I'm not just referring to this question/answer, I mean for all I know he looked at all the labs and interpreted them correctly as all past infections.

But I've seen enough on Dr Chia to know that he is oddly dismissive of other possible CFS causes. Seems like he's always like "No, it's enterovirus.". Um, okay.....?

I for one, have fully active enterovirus and EBV infections. And there's no way I could reach 100% just treating one or the other.


That's the case w/ everyone though. Everyone and every virus and every condition.


Probably not. But aside from the money, it's about his lifelong research. And I have a theory that in the past 10 yrs, he's realized that his theories and research weren't as important as he initially had thought. Which might be why we don't hear a ton from him these days. And I also believe he qualifies his patients, which could skew results. Think about all the things he said about that...


He's also said it's better in people that are fatigued w/out pain. He clearly has looked into this a lot and knows who it will and will not work on, which could skew the success rates.


Sorry to criticize something you wrote 3 yrs ago Hip. But.. that's a bit of a stretch...
Hi,

As you know, ME/CFS is a complex illness. I have known a lot of doctors and heard a lot more speak. There is a range to various doctor's treatments and diagnoses. Dr. Lerner was terrifically focused on EBV and had the tests and treatment protocols which were geared towards knocking back EBV. Lerner did not swerve too much from his belief in a viral cause and a specific virus. He certainly had his successes. Dr. Chia is somewhat similar in that he too focuses on a specific virus, coxsackie b4. Amazingly he cured his own son. His son is now healthy and in pharmaceuticals. Dr. Chia builds his ideas through experience and through considering the early history and research of ME in the UK. Incidentally, this history has been widely ignored, except for Byron Hyde.

I don't see this focussing on one virus as a problem. In these particular cases, I see it as a strength. The real question is why is Dr. Chia so marginalized? For years he has presented his ideas at conferences. He gets almost no traction. And yet he does not give up. It would be a better world if there were more ME/CFS physicians like Dr. Chia,

There are powerful lessons in history. We are learning that now the hard way, with this coronavirus.

Regards,

Chris
 

sometexan84

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According to Chia's published letter, he finds enterovirus the most common cause, in 109 out of 200 ME/CFS patients, but in second place surprisingly is Chlamydia pneumoniae, in 18 out of 200 patients. Though I have almost never come across Chlamydia pneumoniae ME/CFS patients on this forum.
Another super questionable thing. Dr Chia's studies don't fit with anyone else's. First off, I have active C. Pneumoniae, so there's one. And if you put all the studies together from the past 10 yrs, EBV will is definitely #1 as far as CFS infection associations. I don't think there can be an argument w/ that.

I know that he does not rule out EBV entirely, because in this published letter by Dr Chia, he finds that EBV is the cause of ME/CFS in 6 out of 200 patients he tested.
The only way this is true is if he qualifies his patients and those he uses in his studies. I shouldn't have deleted the CFS EBV studies I had. But you can find a couple dozen EBV studies that show active EBV anywhere from 20% - 70% of CFS patients, significantly higher than the healthy controls used. And tons of studies showing that EBV can and does cause CFS.

Now I think I've gone from not trusting the guy completely, to just not liking him.
 
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sometexan84

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Dr. Lerner was terrifically focused on EBV and had the tests and treatment protocols which were geared towards knocking back EBV. Lerner did not swerve too much from his belief in a viral cause and a specific virus. He certainly had his successes. Dr. Chia is somewhat similar in that he too focuses on a specific virus, coxsackie b4.
That's not true. Dr Lerner treated EBV, HHV-6, CMV, Mycoplasma pneumoniae, Streptococcus infection, and a bunch of other bacterial infections. He even treated enterovirus. He pretty much covered all the known suspects, despite treating his patients many yrs ago, prior to everything we now know. Smart dude.

https://phoenixrising.me/interviews...ntiviral-treatment-study-0510-by-cort-johnson
https://www.healthrising.org/forums...ibromyalgia-antiviral-treatment-protocol.134/

EBV was his "main focus" only because it was the most prevalent in his CFS patients. And studies today still consistently gravitate towards EBV being the most important aspect in CFS, as far as infections go.

I don't see this focussing on one virus as a problem.
It's not a problem. Heck, if we could be a super smart mind behind each individual infectious agent, I think we'd all benefit. I just don't like his disregard for other infections, and his studies seem suspect.

The real question is why is Dr. Chia so marginalized?
Is he? Well that's good to hear.

For years he has presented his ideas at conferences.
He presents the same thing over and over, regurgitating the exact same stuff about treating his son, equilibrant, and finding enterovirus in various places of peoples live or dead bodies.
 

JES

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Another super questionable thing. Dr Chia's studies don't fit with anyone else's. First off, I have active C. Pneumoniae, so there's one. And if you put all the studies together from the past 10 yrs, EBV will is definitely #1 as far as CFS infection associations. I don't think there can be an argument w/ that.

This guy is off his rocker!


Really? Really?

The only way this is true is if he qualifies his patients and those he uses in his studies. I shouldn't have deleted the CFS EBV studies I had. But you can find a couple dozen EBV studies that show active EBV anywhere from 20% - 70% of CFS patients, significantly higher than the healthy controls used. And tons of studies showing that EBV can and does cause CFS.

Now I think I've gone from not trusting the guy completely, to just not liking him.
Not sure what made you specifically bring up Chia, maybe you had a bad experience with him, but as far as I can see, most ME/CFS doctors are "Dr. Chia's", i.e. they have one leading hypothesis of what causes the disease and they focus on treating that one. Since we haven't established what the cause of ME/CFS is or even biomarkers, the pragmatic approach with today's limited understanding might actually be for a doctor to focus on treating one aspect of the disease and refer the patient to their colleagues for other treatment approaches.

You mentioned Lerner isn't focused on one virus, but all his publications and talks are about herpesviruses, of which CMV and HHV-6 are part of. Other examples on top of my head are Kenny de Meirleir, who is often accused of seeing everything as chronic Lyme, Jose Montoya, who like Lerner seems focus on herpesviruses and treatment with antiherpesvirals and recently we have a bunch of neurosurgeons who sees CCI in most of their ME/CFS patients and think a CCI surgery will most of the time cure them. To me all these doctors are in the same category, they try their best to help ME/CFS patients, with slightly different approaches, but so far we have no strong evidence of efficacy with any form of intervention, so we are still talking about off-label treatments and hypotheses.

I went to a bunch of doctors over the years and got a different answer from almost every one of them. The first doctor wanted to treat my "active" mycoplasma infection with antibiotics - made no difference. The second doctor I visited for years was convinced all forms of ME/CFS are some form of autonomic nervous system dysfunction caused by inherited collagen defects like EDS. Finally last year I visited a doctor who thinks increasing salt intake alone will fix my orthostatic issues, but meanwhile he also got me tested and found autoantibodies against adrenergic and muscarinic receptors, so it's the antibodies or salt deficiency that is the cause now? We are all still pretty much in the dark.
 
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sometexan84

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Not sure what made you specifically bring up Chia, maybe you had a bad experience with him,
This is an old Dr Chia thread, I'd stumbled on it for whatever reason, thought I'd revive the thread. Lots of stuff here!

I didn't use Dr Chia. No bad experience.

You mentioned Lerner isn't focused on one virus,
See the post I made just before your post.

But really, I was just talking about how, and why, I distrust Dr. Chia. Like, unrelated to other doctors.

The first doctor wanted to treat my "active" mycoplasma infection with antibiotics - made no difference. The second doctor I visited for years was convinced all forms of ME/CFS are some form of autonomic nervous system dysfunction caused by inherited collagen defects like EDS. Finally last year I visited a doctor who thinks increasing salt intake alone will fix my orthostatic issues, but meanwhile he also got me tested and found autoantibodies against adrenergic and muscarinic receptors, so it's the antibodies or salt deficiency that is the cause now?
Haha, I think all 3 doctors are right though. (minus "inherited collagen defects" and that guys salt solution)

HEY! You got the ß2 autoantibodies!?! "Rapid improvement" in 7 of 10 patients (w/ high ß2 autoantibodies) with Immunoadsorption. If you have $20,000, you should try it! Would love to hear the results.