Rich Vank's Simplified Methylation Protocol Poll

[Gloria H]

I get low blood sugar attacks that won't quit (fyi the symptoms of a low blood sugar attack and a panic attack are exactly the same -- panic is a known biological response to low blood sugar).

DHEA stops it in its tracks. When the DHEA starts to wane the shaking is back so I have to replenish later in the day (DHEA only persists for 20 hours). The reason it works is because DHEA makes estrogen and estrogen raises BH4. I don't know what I read to make me think low BH4 is tied to diabetes and I can't prove it, but I think it is. Here's a reference on estrogen and BH4: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showt...ings-that-help (second note)

I am not saying deficiencies in chromium and vanadium should not be corrected and in fact you are making me wonder if I am more careful to replenish the chromium and vanadium if I could perhaps lower my DHEA. So could be I've learned something useful here.

Hi Rydra,

I found your mentions of low blood sugar attacks, DHEA & shaking so interesting.

I have this comment in a book Analytical System of Clinical Nutrition by Schenker, DC -published in 1999 "Cr [chromium] is intimately associated with pancreatic function/glucose metabolism via its role in glucose tolerance factor. Cr deficiency results in decreased glucose utilization, plus hyperglycemia and/or hyperinsulinemia. One of the effects of hyperinsulinemia is blockage of DHEA production, the adrenal hormone that has anti-aging properties and protective properties against clumping of platelets, certain types of cancer, certain types of elevated cholesterol, and certain types of elevated blood pressure. Cr supplementation will decrease blood sugar levels in diabetic patients "

 

[codex]

I started the protocol less than a week ago and I've been feeling better almost straight away.
I'm on 2mg hydro but only 200mcg folinic acid and lecithin (still waiting for the Methylmate). I'm not taking the vitamins but I have been taking some andrographis.
Is it normal to feel better so soon?
I was expecting to feel worse before getting any better. I want to avoid possible later crashes.

 

[richvank]

I started the protocol less than a week ago and I've been feeling better almost straight away.
I'm on 2mg hydro but only 200mcg folinic acid and lecithin (still waiting for the Methylmate). I'm not taking the vitamins but I have been taking some andrographis.
Is it normal to feel better so soon?
I was expecting to feel worse before getting any better. I want to avoid possible later crashes.

Hi, codex.

It seems to vary a lot from one person to another, but there have been others who noticed benefits right away. This is very helpful, because it helps a person to maintain hope and to hang in there if more difficult times come later, which in many cases they do, as toxins are mobilized. My general advice to people is to back off on the dosages or take a break if the detox-related symptoms become too much to tolerate. I hope that you will have relatively smooth sailing.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[richvank]

I started the protocol less than a week ago and I've been feeling better almost straight away.
I'm on 2mg hydro but only 200mcg folinic acid and lecithin (still waiting for the Methylmate). I'm not taking the vitamins but I have been taking some andrographis.
Is it normal to feel better so soon?
I was expecting to feel worse before getting any better. I want to avoid possible later crashes.

Hi, codex.

It seems to vary a lot from one person to another, but there have been others who noticed benefits right away. This is very helpful, because it helps a person to maintain hope and to hang in there if more difficult times come later, which in many cases they do, as toxins are mobilized. My general advice to people is to back off on the dosages or take a break if the detox-related symptoms become too much to tolerate. I hope that you will have relatively smooth sailing.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Medman99]

Checking in:
It's been a while since I checked in. I ended up doing about 3 months of this protocol, despite my housing issue that popped up during the middle of this. One note, I was never able to include PS in my regimen. It simply did not agree with me from day 1. I'm still taking glutathione(liposomal) 5ml 3 x /week and my weekly dose of thorne multi-which contains mthf and folinic, I believe. I have to say I have experienced some mild improvement of symptoms with this. Not cured by any stretch, but better. What else can you ask for?
Also, a side note. I noticed at about the 3 month mark, that this regimen seemed to make me a feel a bit too "speedy" for lack of a better term, so I whittled my self off at that time. I've tried to restart it again and experienced that "edgy" feeling again? So perhaps, it successfully restarted my sytem and I no longer need it? (if I had to guess, it seems that the hydroxycobalamin dose of 2000 mcg/day became too much.)
Rich, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
One other note: I have severe hypoglycemia(48 on gtt 6 hr test at 3 hr mark) and this regimen never worsened my hypoglycemia.
Thanks, all.

 

[richvank]

Checking in:
It's been a while since I checked in. I ended up doing about 3 months of this protocol, despite my housing issue that popped up during the middle of this. One note, I was never able to include PS in my regimen. It simply did not agree with me from day 1. I'm still taking glutathione(liposomal) 5ml 3 x /week and my weekly dose of thorne multi-which contains mthf and folinic, I believe. I have to say I have experienced some mild improvement of symptoms with this. Not cured by any stretch, but better. What else can you ask for?
Also, a side note. I noticed at about the 3 month mark, that this regimen seemed to make me a feel a bit too "speedy" for lack of a better term, so I whittled my self off at that time. I've tried to restart it again and experienced that "edgy" feeling again? So perhaps, it successfully restarted my sytem and I no longer need it? (if I had to guess, it seems that the hydroxycobalamin dose of 2000 mcg/day became too much.)
Rich, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
One other note: I have severe hypoglycemia(48 on gtt 6 hr test at 3 hr mark) and this regimen never worsened my hypoglycemia.
Thanks, all.

Hi, Medman.

Thanks for posting this update. I'm glad to hear that you got some benefit from the methylation treatment.

I suspect that the "edgy" feeling you reported is due to excitotoxicity. Many people experience this on the methylation treatment. In some cases there is also anxiety and insomnia.

The fact that this did not occur until 3 months into the treatment suggests to me that it may be due to detox of toxins that interact with the NMDA receptors on neurons, rather than to temporary additional depletion of glutathione, which is more likely to occur initially on this treatment. If this is the case, you may benefit from adding toxin binders, such as activated charcoal, which can bind toxins as they come into the gut with the bile and take them out in the stools. This can prevent them from being reabsorbed from the gut and recirculated in the blood. Some people take 3 or 4 grams of activated charcoal per day. If this causes constipation, the charcoal can be slurried with Milk of Magnesia before taking it.

The hypoglycemia is likely due to dysfunction of the HPA axis. I think that would be consistent with your intolerance of PS. Hopefully this will be corrected by bringing up the glutathione level in the pituitary with methylation treatment.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[codex]

I suspect that the "edgy" feeling you reported is due to excitotoxicity. Many people experience this on the methylation treatment. In some cases there is also anxiety and insomnia.

Rich,
I have experienced the same edgy and anxiety feelings with folinic acid and it's become kind of uncomfortable. I'm absolutely fine with the 5-mthf and b12 hydroxy, make me feel good and sharp.
I wondered whether I should drop the folinic and take double dosage of mthf instead?
Regarding charcoal do you have a brand you can recommend?
Many thanks

 

[richvank]

Rich,
I have experienced the same edgy and anxiety feelings with folinic acid and it's become kind of uncomfortable. I'm absolutely fine with the 5-mthf and b12 hydroxy, make me feel good and sharp.
I wondered whether I should drop the folinic and take double dosage of mthf instead?
Regarding charcoal do you have a brand you can recommend?
Many thanks

Hi, codex.

Freddd has reported having a setback from taking folinic acid. Folinic acid is a natural form of folate found in foods, but there may be people who have polymorphisms in the single enzyme that is able to convert folinic acid into other forms of folate: MTHFS (not to be confused with MTHFR), methenyl tetrahydrofolate synthetase. If folinic is not converted and builds up, it inhibits the SHMT (serine hydroxymethyltransferase) reaction, and that hinders the feeding of one-carbon units into the folate metabolism, which are the source of the methyl groups.

If folinic acid causes you problems and methylfolate helps you, yes, I would switch to methylfolate, bringing the dosage up slowly to make sure you can tolerate it.

The reason folinic is included in the simplified protocol is to help the cells make new DNA and RNA for their multiplication, during the period of time before the methionine synthase reaction gets going fast enough to supply tetrahydrofolate, which can be used to make other folates for these purposes. But if you are doing fine on methylfolate, the methionine synthase reaction is probably coming up pretty well. I'm glad the hydroxy B12--methylfolate combination is helping you to feel better.

I don't have a recommendation for a brand of activated charcoal. Maybe others who have used it will comment.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[codex]

Rich, thanks for the explanation.

 

[topaz]

Greetings Rich

How long do the symptoms at post #19 last, on average?

For how long is it suggested that we push through these symptoms before giving up on SMP?

Very best regards

 

[rydra_wong]

Hi Rydra,

I found your mentions of low blood sugar attacks, DHEA & shaking so interesting.

I have this comment in a book Analytical System of Clinical Nutrition by Schenker, DC -published in 1999 "Cr [chromium] is intimately associated with pancreatic function/glucose metabolism via its role in glucose tolerance factor. Cr deficiency results in decreased glucose utilization, plus hyperglycemia and/or hyperinsulinemia. One of the effects of hyperinsulinemia is blockage of DHEA production, the adrenal hormone that has anti-aging properties and protective properties against clumping of platelets, certain types of cancer, certain types of elevated cholesterol, and certain types of elevated blood pressure. Cr supplementation will decrease blood sugar levels in diabetic patients "

Wow. Thanks! I know I am deficient in chromium and vanadium but havent done much about it. This has motivated me!

Rydra

 

[rydra_wong]

The hypoglycemia is likely due to dysfunction of the HPA axis. I think that would be consistent with your intolerance of PS. Hopefully this will be corrected by bringing up the glutathione level in the pituitary with methylation treatment.

Rich, I am peridoically hypoglycemic (not always, but for stretches at a time). DHEA zaps this, but not for as long just now as it used to (used to be all day...but flea products shrorten it to hours. I put some on my pets last week - not sure if it is still causing this effect or something else). I am very interested in this and would like to know how glutathione would impact this? I have two CBS mutations and make a lot of taurine (does that mean I dont make enough glutathione? I never had that measured). I had an allergy lab run which came back with some dopey informal typed sheet of paper (not a lab letterhead and nothing showing what was tested) saying that I had an auto-immune problem on the HPA axis and should take some peptide they wanted to charge me $240/month for. And another one to bring my ovaries back to life(!) for $160/month. Yeah, right. So anthing that would be of help to my HPA axis is of interest to me. Thanks!

Rydra

 

[richvank]

Greetings Rich

How long do the symptoms at post #19 last, on average?

For how long is it suggested that we push through these symptoms before giving up on SMP?

Very best regards

Hi, topaz.

Post 19 contains all the information I have about duration of symptoms. Perhaps others can comment on their experiences.

With regard to "pushing through," I don't advocate continuing if the symptoms are intolerable, but instead, dropping the dosages until they are tolerable. If you are experiencing exacerbation of symptoms, I think it means that the protocol is having an effect, and over time, should be beneficial. If the symptoms seem to be related to excitotoxicity (anxiety, insomnia, a "wired" feeling), it may help to add either liposomal glutathione or acetylglutathione, or to take theanine, GABA, magnesium, progesterone cream, Valerian root, pycnogenol, grape seed extract or other supplements known to lower excitotoxicity. If the symptoms seem to be related to mobilization of toxins, it may help to take activated charcoal at 3 pr 4 grams per day (with Milk of Magnesia if it causes constipation), modified citrus pectin, and/or lemon juice (using a straw and flushing the teeth with water afterward). If the symptoms seem to be caused by low potassium, you could try increasing the intake of foods that contain high potassium. Others have discussed them on the forum.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Whit]

I tried Methyl B12 recently after reading about this protocol, and it quickly improved my energy level. Not healed by any means, just a noticeable improvement. However, I couldn't sleep very much if at all any of the nights after taking it. I took it in the morning for 3 days, and then stopped and slept just fine the first day without the B12. Doesn't seem likely to be a coincidence because I never have sleepless nights in a row like that. I do sometimes have one, but then I sleep great the next night.

Any ideas Rich? I've been hesitant to take it again because not sleeping is so terrible.

I took Source Naturals "coenzymate B Complex" for a while with minimal if any benefit. It does not have the methyl form of B12.

 

[richvank]

Hi, Whit.

Yes, that is likely due to excitotoxicity. A lot of people have reported this on the methylation protocol. I think it's caused by a temporary further decrease in glutathione in the astrocyte cells in the brain, as more of the homocysteine is converted back to methionine, and less is available to make cysteine to support glutathione synthesis.

Some people have gotten relief from adding things like GABA, theanine, magnesium, taurine, grape seed extract, pycnogenol, progesterone cream, Valerian root, or others. Perhaps taking either acetyl glutathione or liposomal glutathione will help this. If methionine is low, supplementing that with this protocol may help, too. Eventually, as the methylation cycle recovers, more of the homocysteine should be able to support glutathione again. Some people just decrease the dosage of B12 and the folates and take it more slowly.

I think your response indicates that this type of treatment will help you.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Rrrr]

a question.

here is the list of 5 supps in rich's simplified methylation protocol.

1. General Vitamin Neurological Health Formula [2]: Start with tablet and increase dosage as tolerated to 2 tablets daily
2. Hydroxy B12 Mega Drops [3]: 2 drops under the tongue daily
3. MethylMate B [4]: 3 drops under the tongue daily
4. Folinic acid [5]: capsule daily (some people prefer a tablet for the folinic acid, instead of a capsule. They prefer to split a tablet rather than to deal with powder. If you feel that way, too, you might try the Source Naturals Megafolinic.)
5. Phosphatidyl Serine Complex [6]: 1 softgel capsule daily (or lecithin, see below)

and here is my confusion:

is the folinic acid (listed above) the same as Metafolin, which i think is also part of this protocol (Metafolin is also found in these forms: FolaPro, MethylMate B, Quatrefolic, or a little bit of Deplin).

rrrr

 

[richvank]

Hi, Rrrr.

No, folinic acid is another chemically reduced form of folate. I have included it because it can help to raise other forms of folate that are needed to make new DNA and RNA to produce new cells, before the methionine synthase reaction has gotten going at a more normal rate. The methylfolate (as in Metafolin) is not able to do this very well early in the treatment, because it must be converted to tetrahydrofolate by the methionine synthase reaction before these other folate forms can be produced from it.

Freddd has found that folinic acid is not good for him, and perhaps some others here have found the same. I suspect that Freddd has inherited a polymorphism in his MTHFS enzyme (not to be confused with MTHFR), and that that is the reason his cells are not able to use folinic acid well. If folinic acid builds up, because it cannot be utilized, it will inhibit the SHMT reaction and will tend to shut down the production of methylfolate, which will inhibit the methylation cycle. I think that's what happens in Freddd's case. But for most people, folinic acid seems to be helpful, and it has been used quite a lot by the DAN! doctors to treat autism, which has much the same biochemical abnormalities as ME/CFS

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Rrrr]

in short, i have trouble keeping up with the different names of the same substances. (some single substances have 4 or more names! like the MethylMate B is also known as Metafolin and it is found in any of these supplements: Solgar Folate, FolaPro, MethylMate B, Quatrefolic, or a little bit of Deplin.)

for some reason my brain just can not wrap around this stuff.
rrrr

 

[richvank]

Hi, Rrrr.

I understand. Sorry that there are so many different names for products that contain the same basic substance.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[alexa]

I have had good results on your protocoll, but now my doctor wants me to take hydroxycobalamin (?) intramuscular once a week ( a very high dose)
if i follow his advice, how should i increase my folinic acid or other supplements so that i don't distrupt the balance again?

tkank you!