Relationship between B12 and Folates

[Lotus97]

I prefer hydroxocobalamin for several reasons. One is that it allows the cells to control the amounts of the coenzyme forms of B12 (methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin) that they make, so that they can be matched to the need. Taking methylcobalamin in large dosages by injection or sublingually can overdrive the methylation cycle, as evidenced by a major rise in sarcosine, which I've seen in amino acids testing on some people who have been on this treatment for a while. I am not comfortable with overdriving the methylation cycle, both because I think it slows flow down the transsulfuration pathway and thus limits the normalization of the balance of the sulfur metabolism, including cysteine, glutathione, taurine and sulfate, and also because I am concerned about the possibility of overmethylation of DNA, which could have other deleterious effects.

My other concern is that methylcobalamin is known to be chemically able to methylate inorganic mercury. Many PWCs have significant body burdens of inorganic mercury as a result of having amalgam fillings in their teeth during an extended period while glutathione has been low, so that they have not been able to detox mercury at normal rates. Methylmercury can cross the blood-brain barrier readily. Mercury is a potent neurotoxin if it gets into the brain. This problem has been observed in guinea pigs. I don't have solid evidence for it in humans, but have heard from perhaps three people who may have had this problem, based on what they have reported. So I prefer to be cautious.

Best regards,

Rich

If hydroxocobalamin converts to methylcobalamin would too much of hydroxy b12 also cause problems with mercury? Also, is it possible that it wasn't the methylcobalamin that directly mobilized the mercury, but rather the methylation process itself that was responsible? Maybe since methylcobalamin is the most potent type of B12 for jumpstarting methylation it is the most likely to do so.

 

[Freddd]

MeCbl and l-metjhylfolate will start the first of 6 levels of healing almost 100% of time, about 20% of time requiring AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate, becasue these are all mutually deadlocking functionally. I almost have a complete explanation worked up that will be posted soon. Also, as Carmen Wheatley's paper, LARGE GORILLA ... ADENOSYLCOBALAMIN... said, HyCbl appears to be a workaround to a starvation situation allowing minimal incomplete functioning. AdoCbl reduces inflamation "radically" more effectively than HyCbl. MeCbl and AdoCbl are 100 ti 10,000 times as effective as HyCbl by my sestimations. That is pretty radical. Also, 400,000,000 years of evolution are on the side of MeCbl and AdoCbl instead of the barely functional salvage HyCbl. HyCbl competes for methyl groups. For HyCbl to be converted to the active forms requires some of the active forms to be present. It rrequires MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfoate and l-carnitine fumarate to produce the ATP and donate the methyl group needed to convert the HyCbl to the same MeCbl that is destroyed by donating it's methyl group. HyCbl is a zero sum game that almost never starts up the methylation needed on the very first level of healing much less the other 5. The whole mercury methylation argument is not valid as stated. 1mg of mecury (takes 30mg of methyl-mercury in serum for symptoms to start appearing) destroys 7mg of MeCbl to be methlated. Since the body contains half that, and since 80% of mecury toxicity symptoms are b12 defciency symptoms, 30 mg of mecury would take all the b12 in your body and all the b12 you could absorb from food or HyCbl for the rest of your life with deficiency symptoms the whole time.

 

[Xara]

I've read an impressive report (Dutch language) of a biochemist who said, if I remember well, that the large part of mercury in the body is kept in the bones. Bones take seven years to be rebuilt completely. So it takes seven years to get rid of all the mercury, the removal and rebuilding process can't be accelerated.
So I am not worried much about mercury, I'm sure I have mercury but, as far as I understand, it can't be pulled out of the bonecells simply by having lots of chelators available.

So Freddd, I agree with you. One question though.
You said

The whole mercury methylation argument is not valid as stated. 1mg of mecury (takes 30mg of methyl-mercury in serum for symptoms to start appearing) destroys 7mg of MeCbl to be methlated. Since the body contains half that, and since 80% of mecury toxicity symptoms are b12 defciency symptoms, 30 mg of mecury would take all the b12 in your body and all the b12 you could absorb from food or HyCbl for the rest of your life with deficiency symptoms the whole time.

Am I correct understanding that the body contains only 3.5 mg of mb12?

Edit: changed word 'recylce' in: 'be rebuilt completely'

 

[Sushi]

MeCbl and l-metjhylfolate will start the first of 6 levels of healing almost 100% of time, about 20% of time requiring AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate, becasue these are all mutually deadlocking functionally. I almost have a complete explanation worked up that will be posted soon. Also, as Carmen Wheatley's paper, LARGE GORILLA ... ADENOSYLCOBALAMIN... said, HyCbl appears to be a workaround to a starvation situation allowing minimal incomplete functioning. AdoCbl reduces inflamation "radically" more effectively than HyCbl. MeCbl and AdoCbl are 100 ti 10,000 times as effective as HyCbl by my sestimations. That is pretty radical. Also, 400,000,000 years of evolution are on the side of MeCbl and AdoCbl instead of the barely functional salvage HyCbl. HyCbl competes for methyl groups. For HyCbl to be converted to the active forms requires some of the active forms to be present. It rrequires MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfoate and l-carnitine fumarate to produce the ATP and donate the methyl group needed to convert the HyCbl to the same MeCbl that is destroyed by donating it's methyl group. HyCbl is a zero sum game that almost never starts up the methylation needed on the very first level of healing much less the other 5. The whole mercury methylation argument is not valid as stated. 1mg of mecury (takes 30mg of methyl-mercury in serum for symptoms to start appearing) destroys 7mg of MeCbl to be methlated. Since the body contains half that, and since 80% of mecury toxicity symptoms are b12 defciency symptoms, 30 mg of mecury would take all the b12 in your body and all the b12 you could absorb from food or HyCbl for the rest of your life with deficiency symptoms the whole time.

Could you please give a reference to a study indicating this?

Many of the respected ME/CFS doctors prefer to prescribe hydox B12, partly because of its effect on scavenging peroxynitrite. So there are other educated and experienced opinions on the best form of B12 for ME/CFS patients.

Sushi

 

[Lotus97]

MeCbl and l-metjhylfolate will start the first of 6 levels of healing almost 100% of time, about 20% of time requiring AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate, becasue these are all mutually deadlocking functionally. I almost have a complete explanation worked up that will be posted soon. Also, as Carmen Wheatley's paper, LARGE GORILLA ... ADENOSYLCOBALAMIN... said, HyCbl appears to be a workaround to a starvation situation allowing minimal incomplete functioning. AdoCbl reduces inflamation "radically" more effectively than HyCbl. MeCbl and AdoCbl are 100 ti 10,000 times as effective as HyCbl by my sestimations. That is pretty radical. Also, 400,000,000 years of evolution are on the side of MeCbl and AdoCbl instead of the barely functional salvage HyCbl. HyCbl competes for methyl groups. For HyCbl to be converted to the active forms requires some of the active forms to be present. It rrequires MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfoate and l-carnitine fumarate to produce the ATP and donate the methyl group needed to convert the HyCbl to the same MeCbl that is destroyed by donating it's methyl group. HyCbl is a zero sum game that almost never starts up the methylation needed on the very first level of healing much less the other 5. The whole mercury methylation argument is not valid as stated. 1mg of mecury (takes 30mg of methyl-mercury in serum for symptoms to start appearing) destroys 7mg of MeCbl to be methlated. Since the body contains half that, and since 80% of mecury toxicity symptoms are b12 defciency symptoms, 30 mg of mecury would take all the b12 in your body and all the b12 you could absorb from food or HyCbl for the rest of your life with deficiency symptoms the whole time.

Mercury detoxification is very serious business. The thing I liked about Rich is that he was knowledgeable in many areas besides methylation including Mercury toxicity. I would caution anyone reading this to read Rich's post on the first page about methylcobalamin and mercury. In addition, high doses of methylcobalamin and methylfolate can cause low potassium possibly resulting in death.