REFEEDING SYNDROME - The clues to healing via induced deficiencies

[aquariusgirl]

Magnesium is the big obstacle tonB1 absorption right?

 

[Gondwanaland]

For a long time I have taken 50 mg allithiamine daily.

I jusr run accross these 2 studies again after a long time and thought they could be related with your issues
The effects of copper status on thiamine metabolism in sheep fed a high sulfur diet

Manganese and Vitamin B1 (thisone is an abstract, but if you google it a number of full studies show up)

 

[aquariusgirl]

Could it get more complicated?

 

[aquariusgirl]

I want a picc ir Hickman line so I can do this stuff intravenously

 

[alicec]

Magnesium is the big obstacle tonB1 absorption right?

Do you mean that it is an energy dependent process and magnesium is required for ATP production, or did you have some other role for magnesium in mind?

I think thiamine is absorbed by both active transport (at lower concentrations) and passive diffusion (higher concentrations).

 

[alicec]

I jusr run accross these 2 studies again after a long time and thought they could be related with your issues
The effects of copper status on thiamine metabolism in sheep fed a high sulfur diet

Manganese and Vitamin B1 (thisone is an abstract, but if you google it a number of full studies show up)

I tried largish doses of copper and manganese (along with every other trace mineral I could get my hands on) some time ago. I had definitely depleted copper and found that moderately large doses for a while were very helpful.

Manganese didn't seem to make much difference one way or the other but since I was taking highish doses of various minerals I did take 10 mg daily for a while. Molybdenum was the other one that seemed to be beneficial in fairly high doses and of course, as I mentioned earlier, heaps of boron for a while.

I moderated the dose after a couple of months and have tried increasing again at various times but have gained no benefit. I have interpreted this as repletion and now take a trace element mixture daily.

So I don't think this latest issue is mineral related; it seems that I have just run up a huge B1 deficit.

 

[Gondwanaland]

So I don't think this latest issue is mineral related; it seems that I have just run up a huge B1 deficit.

I am intrigued by what could be triggering shingles. @Violeta also had it upon taking K2-MK4.

This could be related or not, but I have been diagnosed with corneal herpes some years ago, and just recently noticed that what actually triggers the pain in my optic nerve is high tryptophan content of foods. All of a sudden taking B5 to help me with sleep started triggering my eye pain, and this allowed me to find out that B2 and Biotin are needed for Trp to be metabolized into Niacin, and I already knew that B6 is needed for the conversion into serotonin, melatonin (+B5) etc. Additionally, Biotin is crucial for proper Lysine metabolism, which may be directly related with its viral inhibiting properties.

So now I have been taking a mix that seems to be healing my nerve, in addition to help me sleep better (yes, all my doses are ridiculously tiny):
MgO 25mg
B2 ~2mg
B6 ~1mg
Biotin ~50mcg

And last night I thought that it would be safe to add B5 back to my sleep cocktail, so added ~1mg B5 to it with no detrimental effects in my optic nerve.

You said you have been needing lots of Biotin, so I think adequate amounts of Lys would be needed to match that. I tried adding Lys to my cocktail, but it causes a lot of neck and head tension (vasoconstriction), so I can't take it as a supplement.

I hope you can find relief soon.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Do you mean that it is an energy dependent process and magnesium is required for ATP production, or did you have some other role for magnesium in mind?

I think thiamine is absorbed by both active transport (at lower concentrations) and passive diffusion (higher concentrations).

I can't find the studiesjust now but low magnesium can interfere w/thiamine uptake

 

[alicec]

I am intrigued by what could be triggering shingles.

Me too. I thought my immune system was hypervigilant (I'm in the group that never gets colds, flu etc) so what allowed the virus to reactivate?

Because I have been so unwell my thought processes have been very slow and I have reached no conclusions.

Am getting much better and the amino acids/B1 combination is working wonders at the moment so am looking forward to some better thinking.

You said you have been needing lots of Biotin, so I think adequate amounts of Lys would be needed to match that.

Yes that could be the case. I've always been reluctant to supplement individual amino acids for fear of creating imbalances. The amino acid mix I am trying does contain significant amounts of lysine

 

[Gondwanaland]

Me too. I thought my immune system was hypervigilant (I'm in the group that never gets colds, flu etc) so what allowed the virus to reactivate?

I can't take B1 because it keeps my cortisol high + activates a nasty cough if I try it for too long.

So I suppose it is just the high cortisol suppressing the immune system.

This is new to me that K2-MK4 would also raise cortisol, but thinking back to when I tried it and the disastrous outcome I had it just makes sense.

@Lolinda @Violeta

I've always been reluctant to supplement individual amino acids for fear of creating imbalances.

Yes, I get instant side-effects of low arginine by taking as little as 10mg of Lysine (vasoconstriction). Perhaps I should up my B2 in order to tolerate more of it, but I don't want to get caught in a snowball again.

When I was reading around about Biotin, I also found it is crucial for BCAA metabolism, more specifically Leucine (I don't know why the other BCAAs are never mentioned when Biotin is involved). I absolutely can't take Biotin on its own (anaphylaxis), but B2 and B6 seem to be the perfect escorts - I think it is related with the Urea Cycle.

With all the Biotin involvement with BCAAs and Lys, I am glad it enabled me to tolerate Trp foods again...

 

[aquariusgirl]

Alice
What /how much aminos do you take?

 

[alicec]

Alice
What /how much aminos do you take?

I've been taking 1/2 tsp (about 1.2g) 3 x daily on an empty stomach of this product.

Once I work out how much B1 to take (currently I am sucking it up at an exponential rate) I'll try increasing.

 

[garyfritz]

Me too. I thought my immune system was hypervigilant (I'm in the group that never gets colds, flu etc) so what allowed the virus to reactivate?

This may not be relevant for your case, but… Mercury toxic people often find they don't get colds or flu. Not because their immune system is hypervigilant, but because it's suppressed by the mercury. They actually catch the cold, but they don't have a normal protective reaction to the viral infection. I haven't heard of any connections with shingles, though. Maybe a shingles infection doesn't require your body to respond the way it would for a cold?

Hm, mercury poisoning depletes glutathione, which is required to protect against infections like shingles…

 

[CCC]

@ Freddd and others with more experience. @Johnmac @Athene* @alicec @CCC @ahmo

How did you know when you’d had enough Adenosyl B-12? The IBS that it caused seemed to call for more and more, but now I’m confused.

I may be re-feeding more than one thing here, and may need to re-feed still more.

Sorry to come in so late.

All I can add to this is that we (my son) had a ridiculously high adesnosyl-B12 need in the B12 oils. Only in the past six months has he gone down to 1 squirt of the aB12/mB12 oil a day plus two squirts of the straight mB12 oils.

The only thing that reduced methlyfolate demand was to take 25mg B2+ 800mg folinic throughout the day. In the end, the B2 seemed to reduce the folate demand (and eventually the B12 to the levels I just listed). He still needs a 5mg mfolate hit before bed and on on waking.

We find out by trial and error: if I cut omit a B12 oil squirt (either form), he takes a sublingual in the afternoon if he starts to feel rubbish in a low B12 kinda way. Freddd's symptom list is priceless from that point of view.

If he has too much aB12, his appetite switches off. Omitting an ab12/mb12 oil sqirt has no immediate effect, other than he eats dinner that night. That's how we reduced to one squirt of the mixed a/mB12 oil eventually.

Things that increase mfolate demand - standardised milk thistle powder! (part of the Buhner herbs).

I'm guessing that B12 and not folate is the main B-vitamin issue here, so I'm not sure our experience is much help.

We're also taking all the standard things: Se, Mo, Mg (footbaths), Zn every morning (topical), d-ribose, K, I (topical, once a week), food, water, etc.

 

[Kathevans]

I'm guessing that B12 and not folate is the main B-vitamin issue here, so I'm not sure our experience is much help.

Thanks for your response. Everyone adds to the collective knowledge... I suspect, given my snps, that B12 is my bottom line issue as well. Although those B12 issues most likely kept me from absorbing folate in adequate doses for most of my life. And I think you know my long and winding B2 story. Things seemingly improved as I increased both the Adenosyl/Methyl Oils to 3 squirts a day. Symptoms were lessening, particularly the IBS that's been present since I started the Ado/Methl Oil. But a constantly returning runny nose, the resurgence of old pains--in shoulder blades, in ankles, and increased fatigue--had me also increasing folate doses to the 20mg+ range.

Yet I admit to tinkering with B2 levels--lowering them--and with my B-Complex, the Seeking Health B-Minus, which has the following doses in a full tab: 25mg B1; 20mg B2; 180mg B3 Niacin ; 20 mg B6; 500mcg Biotin; 75mg Pantothenic Acid. With these I went from taking a full capsule each day in divided doses, to taking a half.

I felt as if I was moving forward until suddenly the amount of potassium I needed suddenly increased, as I said above, from 1800mg to over 3000mg/day, keeping me up at night. And when I pulled back on the Ado/Methyl Oil, shifting to the plain Methyl, and lowered the folate, I found myself feeling over-methylated/hyper and nearly sleepless.

So, I'm trying to retrace. Back to 1 Methyl and 1 Adeno/Methyl combo daily, increasing folate to mollify my growling gut, and have returned to the B complex and B2 levels that were working better. Or at lease having me hit 5-6 hours of sleep as an average.

I suppose we must, over-time, expect some shake-ups. But I wanted to respond as best I could to ameliorate anything extreme--which I seem to have slipped into anyway.

When you say, "Freddd's symptom list is priceless," I assume you're referring to the new, updated list relating to re-feeding which is on page 3 of this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...healing-via-induced-deficiencies.41605/page-3

Version 2.0 12/23/2015

INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed"

I agree. And you've reminded me to run out a copy of it to study when all these symptoms hit. (The inclusion of 'amino acid deficiencies' opens up a whole new area for me to explore, though I see it's come up on this thread...)

Thanks!

 

[alicec]

This may not be relevant for your case, but… Mercury toxic people often find they don't get colds or flu.

I am sceptical about the claims made for mercury toxicity. Cutler tells an interesting story but it is a bit self-fulfilling and there's little independent verification.

In any case, apart from general things like fatigue and brain fog, I have few of the symptoms which supposedly show mercury toxicity and I have a normal hair mineral test according to Cultler's counting rules. I know the toxicity advocates say even with a normal hair test you can still have mercury toxicity, but that is one of the convenient "excuses" that I find particularly annoying.

 

[garyfritz]

I am sceptical about the claims made for mercury toxicity. Cutler tells an interesting story but it is a bit self-fulfilling and there's little independent verification.

The same and more could be said about Freddd's theories and protocols. I respect Freddd's system-analysis skills and his personal results, but Cutler has specialized PhD-level understanding of the chemistry and physiology and literally thousands of success stories. I respect that too.

I'm basing my opinions on a whole lot of anecdotal experience. I've been following the Cutler FB group for nearly a year, and I've seen a LOT of people get dramatic results with amalgam removal and chelation. Not 100% successes, of course, but frankly it's a much better track record than I've seen here. It's convincing enough -- along with many other things that suggest I have mercury toxicity -- that I'm in the midst of some very expensive and unpleasant dental work myself.

Yes, the hair tests can be misleading, and I agree that's annoying. Mercury messes up mineral transport, among many other things, and that messes up the hair tests. Cutler's counting rules look for statistical aberrations that are very unlikely to appear in a healthy person. It's a bit like saying "If you flip a coin 100 times and get heads 60 times, there's a high probability you don't have a fair coin."

If you have no symptoms and don't meet the counting rules, then you probably don't have a mercury problem. For me personally, I have a list of likely-mercury symptoms, I meet two counting rules, I have other mercury telltales (like near-zero levels of lithium), and several other clues point to mercury. None of those is a guaranteed diagnosis. But, like Cutler's counting rules, the chances of having all those independent mercury indicators and NOT having mercury problems are pretty small.

In my very first post on this board, I said I was pretty sure I didn't have CFS/ME, but I was trying to understand my voracious requirement for B12. I have a strong suspicion the underlying cause is mercury.

 

[alicec]

The same and more could be said about Freddd's theories and protocols. I respect Freddd's system-analysis skills and his personal results, but Cutler has specialized PhD-level understanding of the chemistry and physiology and literally thousands of success stories. I respect that too.

I agree entirely.

I said I was sceptical about Cultler's theories, not that I discount them. I can quite accept that accumulated mercury is a problem for some people (identifying which people is of course the problem) but I am much less accepting of the over-claiming that would have many chronic diseases morph into mercury toxicity. One person who posts on PR has virtually said that ME/CFS is mercury toxicity. This is nonsense.

I am all for putting any reasonable theory to the empirical test and would have done the same with Cutler if it didn't involve expensive and possibly traumatic dental treatment. Consequently I read his books and thought a lot about his theories.

I wasn't sufficiently convinced.

 

[garyfritz]

Certainly some people see mercury toxicity in every symptom, and some people see methylation issues behind every problem. I think each applies in some situations. I suspect mercury toxicity is more common, given the near-universal exposure from amalgams, vaccinations, coal plants, seafood, broken fluorescent bulbs & thermometers, etc etc.

 

[Kathevans]

I am still experimenting with how much to add but I suspect that like boron, B2 and biotin, for me, there is an almost bottomless well to fill.

Alice, you say that when you cut back on the B2 you had bad results. Can I ask what they were? After titrating up as high as 150mg/day, and holding my levels above 100mg for 5-6 months, I began to titrate back down, as Greg was urging me to do, though perhaps to my detriment. Unlike you, though I didn't feel anything noticeable, though, and perhaps this has an ironic edge, I was busy increasing my folate at the same time, from 400mcg to 20,000mcg. So, driven up even as I lowered my B2? Or simply able to tolerate more once I had more funcitonal B2 with cofactors on board?

Then too, as I settled in to the higher folate doses, my potassium soared from about 1800mg/day to 2900/per day. Well, many, including you, say that this high potassium need diminishes over time, but I'd like to know if there were other symptoms I might use as a guide. I am slowly adding back higher levels of B2, just to see what happens to folate--if anything--or whether the high need remains. At the moment I am still refeeding folate. I came back to the Adenosyl/Methyl B-12 Oil because it was another thing my body seemed to need. In fact, when I stopped it for several days, thinking to use it only once a week as Fred has said works for most people, I stopped sleeping more than 2 hours a night. I added it back and, at least momentarily, the sleep returned.

So many questions remain, but I'm afraid experimentation is the only way to go... You seem to be braver than I at launching in with very high doses. How high have you kept the B2?