Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
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True Effectiveness of Cutler Style Chelation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by cman89, Sep 26, 2016.

  1. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    I have run across some internet sources, anecdotal of course, that claim that the effectiveness of Cutler style chelation (DPMS and ALA on rounds) is very overblown, and even metal toxic people don't really end up seeing true results in the long run, just placebo. Now, I have done Cutler chelation with ALA in the past, and I saw rapid change in symptoms, but even then I was skeptical that it was due to the metal detox effect. I am wondering if perhaps some of the skeptics are correct in their assessment. How many of you feel like you saw good results following a chelation program, and how much of that effect could perhaps be the "feel good" effect of ALA?
     
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  2. caledonia

    caledonia

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    If ALA is simply producing a feel good effect, then why would taking ALA once a day instead of dosing frequently within it's half life make you worse, and vice versa?

    As far as how does mercury and other metals affect the body - mercury and lead inhibit MTR (methionine synthase), which inhibits the methylation cycle which controls over 40 major reactions in the body. Aluminum inhibits the BH4 (tetrahydrobiopterin) cycle which controls neurotransmitters.

    Mercury affects CBS which controls sulfur detoxication, and the production of glutathione, the body's major detoxifier. Mercury, arsenic and aluminum inhibit the Kreb's cycle which is how energy is produced in the mitochondria.

    There are many more enzymes and pathways which are affected, those are just the ones I know off the top of my head.

    So you get the metals out, and you would expect all of these things to improve.

    Adults and children success stories
    http://cutlersuccessstories.weebly.com/

    I believe David Hammond had ME or something very similar. He reports being mostly recovered from what sounds like post exertional malaise, and the moons growing back on his fingernails.

    https://www.amazon.com/Mercury-Poisoning-Undiagnosed-David-Hammond/dp/1494747898
     
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  3. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    There is a poll on PR - small numbers but nothing there that would convince you to start the protocol.
     
  4. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    I've been following the ACC FB group for about 3-4 months. From my reading at both sites, I would say the success rates for ACC are probably higher than they are here. Not all 100% cures, and it's not always a smooth and painless process, but a high percentage of people see dramatic improvement.

    Proper diagnosis is obviously key. If you don't have mercury, ACC won't help you. (But IMHO nearly everyone is exposed to toxic levels.) If you truly have a methylation block, then the techniques promoted here seem to help some people. But taking myself as an example, Freddd's approach never did a thing for me. I never fit into the CFS model (thank God). I'm just here because of my huge need for B12, and B12 deficiency is a common thread here. But after learning about mercury poisoning, and observing some connections in my own experience, it looks to me like my B12 appetite is more likely due to mercury than to CFS or methylation problems.

    Greg the b12oils guy has never been able to explain my voracious need for B12. He also doesn't believe in mercury toxicity, at least not from normal exposures like amalgams and vaccinations. I suspect that maybe the B12 demand he can't explain could be caused by the mercury toxicity he doesn't believe.

    ACC is successful enough for enough people that I'm planning to get some expensive and painful dental work so I can start the chelation protocol.
     
  5. cman89

    cman89 Senior Member

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    Interesting. Looks like you feel as the evidence speaks for itself. Good luck
     
  6. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    It does seem to fit, certainly better than the methylation idea (for me). Some examples of evidence that is swaying me:
    • I have many mercury-tox symptoms: tinnitus, ADD, muscle twitching, mild brain fog, etc.
    • I have very high cholesterol levels (280-290 mg/dL), yet a sonogram showed my arteries are whistle-clean. My MD was very confused. Then I discovered the body uses cholesterol to flush mercury out of the body.
    • I have a huge requirement for B12, and the body uses B12 to protect against & detoxify mercury. In hindsight I now realize my "B12 symptoms" are very likely mercury symptoms.
    • In 2013 I had a major spike in the symptoms I now believe are caused by mercury. A few months later I discovered I had lost a filling. Very likely it was degrading and shedding mercury before it fell out.
    • A few months ago I had an increase in several symptoms: night-time agitation, which I had always been able to control with B12, but suddenly the B12 stopped working; and a major increase in my cold-triggered urticaria (hives, itching, burning). I had no idea what caused this. This was just about the time I started following the ACC group, and one of their big messages is that chelation must be done with constant doses to keep the levels high. ALA has a half-life of about 3-5 hours, so you need to take your ALA chelation doses every 3 hours or so. If you don't, the active ALA levels decline, "dropping" the chelated mercury, and you end up redistributing the mercury (and causing more damage) instead of removing it. In trying to figure out what had changed to spike my symptoms, I realized I had started taking a new supplement (LEF 2-per-day multi) -- and that supplement contains ALA! Which I was taking twice per day (instead of every 3 hours), AND I still have amalgams (and you're not supposed to chelate until all amalgams are removed). I stopped taking the LEF supplement and those symptoms vanished within 48 hours.
    So if it was just "I have a bunch of mercury symptoms" I wouldn't be convinced. Many of those same symptoms can be pinned on other conditions. But the combination of factors, especially the lost filling and the reaction to the accidental ALA doses, makes me go "hmmmm..."
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
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  7. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Gary

    I am planning on amalgam removal in the UK. I have to - one of the two is fractured and twinges when l press it.

    I will be following Cutler as l was on his form and saw quite a few improve though some got worse. I think it is vital to prepare the body with clean diet, improve fitness etc ( l don't fit in with cfs either and have more mobility than others here)

    I was seriously poisoned when under a year old and played with the stuff later in childhood plus five amalgams three gone.
     
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I know people on here use "methylation" as a shortcut term for taking B vitamins and other supplements, but you can also fix methylation blocks by removing mercury and lead. As mercury and lead inhibit methionine synthase (where B12 is a cofactor for folate to make methyl groups), it's like two sides of the same coin.

    I imagine most people would have to do both to get complete recovery.

    Freddd himself is another example of someone who is mercury toxic - look at his history.
     
  9. Jpac

    Jpac

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    Any updates on your chelation protocol?
     
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  10. bjl218

    bjl218 Brian Levine

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    Just to stir the pot a bit. My functional medical doc has me on a chelation protocol due to mercury and thallium levels that were a teensy bit high and lead levels that were very high (although not as high as he's seen in some patients). This was determined using a provoked Urine Toxic Metals test from Doctor's Data. I had my 4 mercury amalgams removed by a holistic dentist a couple of years ago. I have no idea how I got exposed to the lead.

    My functional medicine doc is a Quicksilver fan although he uses other protocols instead of or in addition to the QS protocols depending on the type and severity of the toxic metal exposure. In my case, he has me on a modified version of the QS Detox Qube plus DMSA. I'm doing 250mg of DMSA once/day for 4 days with a 3-day break. I am also doing IV Vitamin C and Glutathione IVs. I asked him about the efficacy/risk of this protocol and he said that he has been using this protocol for 10+ years and is very comfortable with it.

    All heavy metal chelation protocols are controversial and so I decided to go with the one my functional medicine doc prescribed because...well...I have to trust someone. And I figured I might as well go with his controversial protocol vs. someone else's controversial protocol. And of course, this protocol is a bit easier to deal with since I don't have to get up in the middle of the night to take ALA or DMSA. I'm 2 months into the 3-month (or more if necessary) protocol at this point. I can't say that I've seen a major improvement, but I've also had no significant adverse effects.

    My B vitamins (as measured via a NutrEval test) are all low to extremely low which may be due to the toxic metals and/or something else. I plan to test them again at the end of this chelation round to see where I stand.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
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  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I have chelated on and off for the past 8 years, under doctor supervision, and though I've gotten rid of a huge amount of toxicity, I still have toxicity today, though its minor. It is a long term commitment that takes careful thought.

    I did oral DMSA and DMPS for mercury with methylstion/glutathione support and mineral replenishment. I had my only 2 mercury fillings replaced with composite.

    A couple of years later, I got stage 3 uterine/ovarian cancer, and had the standard 6 rounds of carboplatin/paclitaxel chemo , which gave me sky high levels of platinum. I spent 9 months doing IV EDTA chelation, which removed a lot of it, though I still have very measurable levels today. It was done with a lot of methylation nutrients, glutathione, and mineral replenishment.

    I've been doing IV and oral PolyMVA for almost 2 years. When I first started it, AFTER all the chelating above, I exhibited huge arsenic and lead toxicity, both of which hasn't really shown up too much on my DD provoked urine tests. Turns out the other chelating has been getting it out of my fat and easy places, the Poly was pulling it out of my mitochondria (its the black stuff in the attached photo).

    Its still coming out of me now. What I've learned about heavy metals and chelating:
    • We have more layers of toxins and we are more toxic thsn we think.
    • A test is only going to show how much is coming out of you, not how much of each toxin you have.
    • If one toxin predominates, results for the others will not be accurate as the body tends to pull one toxin out at a time, in sequence.
    • The Cutler protocol is far too timid for someone like me, it would likely take 50 years and I'd be dead before I fetoxifird by his protocol.
    • You can make things worse by chelating if you don't know what you're doing or even if you do...you can resbsorb and redeposit toxins in worse places, like your brain, and end up sicker.
    • You can damage your liver and kidneys permanently.
    • Many of these toxins are carcinogenic and many interfere with ATP production, so they are worth getting rid of.
    • It is best to learn all you can about chelating before embarking on s protocol do you don't get yourself into trouble. Better if you can consult with, be treated or followed by a knowledgeable doctor before you get into trouble.
    • I'm glad I did it, but its hard work.
    • arsenic in mitochondria.png
     
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  12. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Hi @Learner1

    What’s the source of these images?

    How do you know Polymva is pulling from the mitochondria?

    What would you say you’ve spent on chelation ?

    How many IVs a week?

    I agree w/you on Cutler. Just not going to make a dent.
     
  13. bjl218

    bjl218 Brian Levine

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    Excellent information @Learner1. I had done a few rounds of chelation for mercury a few years ago with a different doctor (I had been eating tons of sushi prior to that) which brought my mercury levels way down. At that time, I had very low levels of lead. Given what you've said regarding pulling one toxin at a time, I wonder if the lead was just "waiting in the wings." In any case, even if I fix my high toxic metal levels with my current treatment, I think I'll test again some time in the future just to make sure. Best of luck and healing to you.
     
  14. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I got them from the scientist, Dr. Wallace, who showed them in his presentation on mitochondrial toxins at the 2016 United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation Conference.
    Alpha lipoic acid is a known chelator of heavy metals, which can cross the BBB and cell and mitochondrial membranes. The polymer formulation has more electrons to help grab onto the metals and pull them out (in layman's terms).

    Prior to starting PolyMVA, I had had very little arsenic show up on any tests in the previous 6 years. Immediately on starting it, I collapsed. Suspicious, my doctor quickly ran a blood test, showing acute arsenic toxicity, according to CDC guidelines.

    I went to the Mito Conference a couple of weeks later, saw Dr. Wallace's talk, which convinced me when he showed the images of arsenic in the mitochondria.
    Oral is cheap. The price of the chelator(s) plus the nutrients to support it, about $3-400 a month. For IV, it ran about $2400 a month.

    Altogether, about $35,000 over 8 years. But, I have lousy detox genes, built toxicity over 45 years to an extremely toxic level, fought stage 3 cancer with toxic platinum-based chemotherapy, and have a family full of people with toxin related diseases, like Parkinson's and non-Hodgkins lymphoma, so I was pretty motivated.

    For most people, I'd guess that 2 years of well-managed oral chelation (several times stronger than Cutler's protocol) would get them a long way.

    As I mentiined, its impossible to know how toxic you are, you can only measure what's coming out at any point in time, so that when the output goes down on the same protocol, you know you're getting there.

    We live in a toxic world and our bodies have ways of getting rid of toxins. Its when they get overwhelmed that we are negatively impacted by the toxins. So, avoiding toxins and feeding our detox systems should be first, with chelation when we have a load that's damaging ATP production and other biochemical processes.
    One chelating IV, with methylation support, glutathione/molybdenum, and replenishing minerals.
    Cutler is for people who can't find a doctor with expertise to help and its designed to go slow and keep people out of trouble. For most of us, though, its too slow.

    It probably was waiting in the wings, just as I've found. For me, the progression was mercury, platinum, cadmium, arsenic, lead, and tin.

    Things are always changing, so living as clean a life as one can, then checking every couple of years may be wise.

    Arsenic is the #1 ubiquitous toxin and it impairs ATP production, and is carcinogenic, so its a good one to keep an eye on.:eek:
     
  15. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    I've had a massive need for B12 for years, since (I believe) I got a huge dose of mercury from a degraded filling. In 2016 I started taking Cutler's Core Four and my huge need for B12 was cut in half, literally overnight. I got my amalgams out during 2017 (gradually due to business travel and other complications). As more and more amalgams came out, my symptoms lessened, to the point where I almost didn't need the B12 at all. I was sleeping better than I have in years.

    In Jan 2018 I started chelation - initially with DMSA (good for mercury, best for lead), then with ALA (only chelator that effectively removes mercury from the brain) and DPMS. I've only been doing that for a few weeks.

    I feel a return of symptoms after I finish a "round" (3 days taking chelators followed by several days off), due to the mercury being "dropped" as the chelator wears out. That's expected. I haven't been chelating long enough to feel significant improvements, but just getting rid of the amalgams made a big difference. For people who were sicker than I was, it can make a huge difference.

    I'm convinced I'm mercury toxic, but fortunately not severely. I've seen improvements just by getting the poison out of my mouth. I'm excited to see what results I get from chelation. Ask me again in a year. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
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  16. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Yikes. I haven't tracked it exactly but I'm sure I spend less than $100 a month for chelators and supporting supps. Some people take more supps and spend more but I'd guess $300 is unusual for Cutler folks.

    It was Cutler's experience (from working with many hundreds of sufferers) that many people were severely injured by large-dose or infrequent-dose chelation, most especially IV chelation, EDTA, glutathione, etc. It is also our experience that many people are much worse off after a doctor-managed chelation process. That has continued to be the case during the 2 years or so that I've been following the forum. We frequently get new members who are in terrible shape after IV chelation, and low-dose frequent chelation helps them heal.

    The intent of Cutler's low-dose protocol is to minimize suffering and damage while removing the toxins. You size your dosage at a level that causes mild discomfort from the mobilized mercury. Someone with mild toxicity might be able to start with 25 mg of ALA every 3 hours. A few severely toxic people are currently taking only 1/32 mg!! That's an incredibly small dose but it's all they can tolerate without nasty symptoms and the risk of crashing and setbacks. When you are awash in mercury, it takes very little chelator to extract a tolerable level. As your level goes down, you take higher amounts of chelator to get what's left.

    And those small levels of chelator are very effective. People in the Cutler group see significant improvement LONG before 2 years. Many people are mostly "done" (basically cured to the point where they don't feel the need for further chelation) within 2 years. Only extremely toxic and disabled people continue chelating (and continue improving) for 3-4 years.

    We have lots of members who had severe health problems – MS, severe mental problems, physical collapse, near inability to function – and after some time on Cutler's protocol, they are significantly better. And it only costs them a few hundred $$ per month, instead of several thousand a month. That makes it available to a lot more people. Nobody's charging thousands for this. Even Cutler answered questions for free. They're just trying to help people.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
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  17. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    You get what you pay for. Cutler is a great treatment if you have no medical expertise to supervise you, you respond well to that approach, you don't have a huge toxic load and/or you're on a tight budget.

    For me, given the experiences I've had, I believe I'd be dead from cancer long before my toxic load came down with the Cutler protocol.

    My chelation was not mishandled by a doctor. It was done carefully, with regular labs, and even so, there was strain on my system.

    Some of us are like the proverbial "canaries in the coal mine". We are genetically prone to toxicity and do not handle detoxing well. It takes personalizing the approach, not a "one size fits all" program like Cutler's.

    And I came from a family with serious toxin related problems and knew was extremely toxic. So, I saw the value in having experts guide the process and doing it as aggressively as I was able. It would have been penny wise and pound foolish to do a web-based do-it-yourself protocol.

    I've had more experience than I care to with cancer. Heavy Metals have been implicated in many cancers and other serious diseases. I've seen many people past the tipping point and losing their battles with cancer, looking back to coulda, woulda, shoulda... I felt it was important to get my toxic load down as quickly as I could and not risk stage 4 cancer.

    It's important to know that there are multiple ways to go about detoxing, and it should be a highly individual decision, based on one's genetics, environmental factors, and access to resources and high quality care.
     
  18. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    It was Cutler's experience that weekly IV chelation like you had was in itself "mishandling." The large spike of chelator levels from the injection mobilizes tons of mercury, which is then redistributed and causes damage. There are many people on the Cutler forum who say that IV chelation severely injured them. I assume it must work for some people, and I'm glad you were one of the fortunate ones. But Cutler strongly believed IV chelation was unsafe, and that's why he developed the frequent-low-dose protocol. I've watched enough people recover with that approach to be certain it's safe and very effective, even for extremely toxic people.

    How you treat your condition is your choice. I just don't think you should write off Cutler chelation as some third-rate approach for people who can't get "proper" chelation.
     
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  19. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Most of the medical community is not trained in proper IV chelation, so I have no doubt that some doctors do it badly. If someone were to consider it, I'd highly recommend checking the qualifications and history of whoever is doing it, and asking a lot of questions about the process.

    For you to suggest IV chelation is a third rate approach for those who are toxic and push the dogma of a do it yourself approach can be extremely dangerous for some patients.

    Chelation of any kind mobilizes toxins. If they are not eliminated properly, they can get redeposited in the body.

    Eliminating then requires digestion that's working well, something most people don't have. So, a responsible practitioner will look into gut health.

    A responsible practitioner will also check out Phase I and II detoxification pathways and nutrient status through lab work and optimize those. Anecdotally, most laypeople are unable do this for themselves. This is why people say things like "I can't tolerate B12," "I felt worse when I tried folate and B12," and "I tried Freddd's protocol and got these symptoms..."

    People become toxic because these processes aren't working properly. Moving ahead without addressing these runs the risk of kidney and liver damage, cancer, mental health issues, diabetes, Parkinson's, and other diseases linked to toxicity.

    Educating oneself thoroughly, getting data through genetic and lab tests to base decisions on, and personalizing an approach under the supervision of a doctor is wise.
     
  20. bjl218

    bjl218 Brian Levine

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    I think it's also important to note that Cutler's protocol is used to primarily (exclusively?) address mercury toxicity. If you've accumulated multiple toxic metals, it might not be the most appropriate protocol.

    In @Learner1's case, it seem like there's a need to get the multiple metals out as quickly as possible despite any possible risk of redistribution.

    I'm not promoting any protocol over any other and I have no issue with Cutler's protocol.
     
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