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Cutler Mercury Chelation Poll

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by caledonia, Aug 25, 2015.

?

I have tried the Cutler frequent low dose chelation protocol for mercury or other toxic metals:

  1. I am in effective remission (80%+)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Major Improvement

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
  3. Moderate improvement

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
  4. Minor improvement

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  5. No change

    10 vote(s)
    40.0%
  6. Minor crash

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Moderate crash

    1 vote(s)
    4.0%
  8. Major crash

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Unable to continue protocol

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    If you have tried the Andrew Cutler frequent low dose mercury chelation protocol, please vote in the poll.

    Frequent low dose means dosing with DMSA, DMPS and/or ALA every few hours, including at night, to keep within the half life of these substances. Three day rounds are done with at least four days off in between.

    There are several basic supplements which go along with it, and others can be added to help alleviate symptoms.

    If you have done this protocol in conjunction with one of the methylation protocols, I would especially like to hear your comments on how it's going.
     
  2. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    I was very close to doing this myself in conjunction with methylation bit i ran it by my doctor first and she was pretty strongly against it. She said that Cutler, Yasko and a few others were antiquated theories and there's better info out there now. She sited mostly Dr Lynch and lipid replacement therapy. She said methylation and PC therapy should dislodge metals as well and is safer than the cutler protocol. She is very up to date on stuff so I take her word seriously.

    Just my .02
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
  3. South

    South Senior Member

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    I found two opinions on methylation's relationship to mercury chelation (Cutler plan frequent dose chelation), from the forum on Onibasu.com.

    Somewhere in this there might be a little gem of info to help someone?

    (they aren't my comments; I haven't done methylation and can't comment on Cutler chelation's effect on M.E.)

    One person said that adding chelation (using DMSA on frequent dose protocol per Cutler's book) allowed him to use methylation supplements without getting side effects from the increased methylation. He said the increased methylation might have been increasing loose mercury in the body, and adding DMSA supplements reduced this problem because DMSA reduced the loose mercury that had been stirred up by the methylation supplements:

    "The difference between taking DMSA while taking methylation supps and not taking DMSA is like night and day. Without DMSA - foggy, fluey, tired: with DMSA - clear head, energy, more normal."

    Another person commented that ideally, people should do things in a certain order: remove amalgam fillings first, then chelate to reduce body burden of mercury, then start supplements to increase methylation.
     
  4. Unim

    Unim

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    I was thinking about this as well, after seeing old posts of people starting chelation and not finding much follow up. Thinking of what to ask those who have followed the Cutler protocol for a long time, I thought it might be useful to add a few extra questions if that's okay...

    • How many rounds have you completed or, if unsure, roughly how long and how often did you take breaks?
    • What dose did you start at, how quickly were you able to increase your dose and have you reached the maximum dose for your chelators?
    • Did you have an obvious exposure to mercury or other metal? eg amalgams or broken CFL bulb.




    I have been following Cutler's protocol for roughly 18 months. I've completed 62 rounds of ALA and a handful with DMPS. My dosing has been as follows:
    • Tried DMSA 12.5mg every 4 hours, but symptoms of neutropenia too much to tolerate
    • 25mg ALA every 3 hours for 3.5 days - Heavy fatigue towards end of round
    • Then I added high dose B12 and folate, minimalistic methylation protocol...
    • 50mg ALA, 3 hours, 3 to 3.5 days - No significant negative effects on or after rounds
    • After several months...
    • 75mg ALA, 2.4 hours, 3 days - Mild fatigue, general symptoms on round
    • Swapped tocotrienol supplement for sunflower tocopherols...
    • 25mg ALA, 2.4 hours, 3 days - Had to reduce to this for a few weeks due to increased symptoms on round
    • Currently...
    • 50mg ALA, 2.4 hours, 3 days - No significant symptoms on round
    • Tried adding 5mg DMPS every 7.2 hours - Big increase in depression and irritability on round

    I have struggled to add in a lot of the basic supplements, and for many months went with only lower doses of magnesium, C, and no zinc or tocopherol vit E. In the past few months I am able to tolerate the higher recommendations for the basic supplements and have recently added fish and flax oil. I am also taking artichoke extract, sunflower lecithin, glycine and taurine to support bile flow.

    I have tried thiol exclusion diets a few times, but the effect is always unclear. Sometimes when I add thiols back in I seem to get a feeling of pressure inside my head.

    My only solid gain has been the resolution of a rash on my outer shins. I may have had it since 2007 or before, and it seemed to flare up after starchy or high sulfur meals. I didn't change any supplements during the time this happened, and the steroid creams my doctor prescribed only made me extremely fatigued.

    I'm not very good at tracking my symptoms, but the main noticeable effects have been on round and related to my hormones. Sometimes my body temperature seems higher or my voice gets deeper etc. On occasion slight depression; more frequently bouts of anxiety and irritability, though anxiety occasionally reduced; energy, cognition and digestion still mostly poor. I often find myself sleeping with one arm placed above my head under my pillow, which Cutler considers a sign of arsenic. Still hoping I am in the 'stall phase'.

    I have no obvious exposure to mercury. For many years I ate a lot of tuna and Indian food high in coriander leaf/cilantro. After I became lactose intolerant went through a phase of eating copious amounts of rice milk with other rice-based food. One ongoing problem is there is a fair bit of flaking paint in my bungalow. I've just put sticky tape on it for now until I can manage to do anything about it, hehe.

    150 rounds is my current goal before seriously evaluating my response. My weight fluctuates around 70kg, so my maximum ALA dose will be about 150mg. Going to start increasing my dose again soon and hopefully add in DMSA too. If I see any improvements before then I will be sure to report back.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
    caledonia likes this.
  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    What is lipid replacement therapy and PC therapy? Can you post some links?

    Methylation will dislodge metals from the tissues, but as far as I can tell, it will not get them out of the brain. Only ALA will do that. Supposedly the body's naturally produced ALA is bound up in proteins and so it wouldn't work like synthetic ALA to get metals out of the brain.

    I just thought of an experiment which could be done, which is to crank up methylation until you think you have all your metals out, then do a hair metal and minerals test interpreted with Cutler's counting rules and see if there is still disordered mineral transport.

    There are probably a number of people on this site who already qualify for this if they wanted to spend $85 for the test. It would be good if they had done the test before and it showed the presence of mercury, so you could compare before and after.
     
    South likes this.
  6. caledonia

    caledonia

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    That was Eric from the How I Recovered blog. I am concerned that he experienced "liver congestion" after a year on Cutler and so had to quit. He did make some nice progress in the meantime though.

    At any rate, this would be a great option for me, because I have to keep methylation very low so I don't have the fluey, super tired symptoms (basically feels like a crash). I believe this is due to mercury being dislodged and recirculating, but not detoxing out.

    I saw Rich Vank say the opposite - get some methylation going first, then deal with mercury. The reason is so that your detox pathways are functioning better to handle the mercury. This is, of course, for chronic low level poisoning and not acute poisoning.
     
    Ninan and South like this.
  7. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    @caledonia The best information about Lipid Replacement Therapy with PC (Phosphatidyl Choline) is at http://www.medicalinsider.com/ - go under "Liver Function Toxicity & Detoxification" - then click on #4 "Detoxification Protocols" - then scroll down on the "PHOSPHOLIPID THERAPY" link. Sorry, no easy way to post a direct link to this subsection section. But great information!

    My brother is MTHFR C677T +/+ and an avid reef fishing enthusiast who has eaten hundreds of pounds of seafood per year. He is showing all the signs and symptoms of mercury poisoning - volatile emotions, unsteady gait and facial expressions, itching skin, depression, etc.

    I am wonder the best way to treat organic mercury toxicity? Look forward to reading people's experiences...
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
  8. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    Its called the Patricia Kane protocol, or PK protocol. Dr Patricia Kane developed a lipid replacement therapy in the exact ratio that the lipids appear in our cell membranes, a 4:1 omega 6: omega 3 ratio. Here's a quick excerpt from her site

    http://www.pkprotocol.com/index.html

    You can also look up Patricia Kane protocol and get a bunch of info about it from other people. One important thing to note is she talks about the use of IV lipids, while this is the best way to do it using oral phosphatidylcholine works as well, just not as fast.
     
  9. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I was looking into the Kane protocol years ago, but heard some bad things about her, then found this report:

    http://www.lymeneteurope.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3824

    Not saying that PC isn't a good idea, but that the expensive IV method, or even the necessity of using her products or following her advice might not be wise.
     
  10. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    I did the Cutler protocol for about six weeks back in 2009, and did feel marginally better, but took my "health" for granted back then and in hindsight wish I had continued longer to see if there was more of a benefit.

    Having said that, I also made an appointment w/the nurse practitioner he recommends, and even had her come and speak to our local support group. Not sure how to put this, but she definitely wasn't the picture of health, both during my appointment and her talk at the support group meeting.

    Others were very aware of this as well and pressed her on the benefits of chelation -- on how her health had improved by doing chelation. She struggled to answer the question, seemed to want to move on to discussing other aspects, but one of the guys wasn't satisfied and kept asking.

    I was relieved when she finally said, (paraphrasing): "I can walk a lot easier."

    Everyone perked up when they heard that, until she added, "I just had my knees replaced."
     
  11. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    I did the Cutler protocol for about 12 weeks 4 or 5 years ago, and finally stopped - It was too hard to continue and I didn't feel any different afterwards - I think I was already doing MB12 and methylfolate. The hair analysis counting rules indicated mercury toxicity, as well as my symptoms - I had very frequent mercury detox symptoms and was unable to tolerate any supplement that was supposed to help with "cleansing". When I took certain aminos (glutamine and glycine come to mind) I had a very strong detox reaction, and when I increased my methylfolate from 1600 mcg to 2400 a year ago last June, I had a severe detox reaction.

    So somehow, between June 2014 and spring of this year, I seemed to either clear out mercury or get my detox pathways working properly, or both, am just not sure. But I don't get the detox reaction any more - I tolerate glycine and glutamine with no problem.

    I think what happened was I started pushing those amino acids, albeit slowly (the glycine for sleep), as well as choline/inositol (which also caused detoxing) and gradually my tolerance increased and then I had the Quicksilver Mercury tri test done last February and it showed no mercury and that my detox pathways were working great. And I know that wasn't true in June of last year.

    This article talks about Phase II liver detoxification, and it mentions glycine, glutamine and inositol as being required, as well as several other things. http://www.diagnose-me.com/treatment/liver-detoxification-phase-II-support.html
     
    Peace likes this.
  12. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    I'm not saying everything is fool proof or 100% as beneficial as the creator of said protocol makes it seem. However, I do trust my doctor more than any other doc I've seen in 5 years and she believes heavily in the PK approach. This is only in conjunction with other factors though, such as a ketogenic diet, methylation, detoxing, mold avoidance and antibiotics should someone really need them.
    Other fairly well known doc.s have given their agreement to this approach as well, namely Dr Jack Kruse and Dr Myhill

    http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Phospholipid_exchange

    I myself don't even use Bodybio products. I've seen many places where they are touted as by far the best quality but the reality is they are ludicrously expensive. I take oral phosphatidylcholine from Seeking Health and I make my own 4:1 oil as described on Dr Myhill's site.

    I don't think this therapy alone would heal someone like us but I can see the merit in it being an important factor. If my doc says high dose PC will help dislodge metals and such I'm inclined to believe her. Is it as hard core as the cutler protocol? Probably not but nothing says it can't be effective over a greater amount of time.
     
    dannybex likes this.
  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Have you redone the hair analysis interpreted with Cutler's counting rules, or is the Quicksilver test something different?

    Would you be willing to spend $85 to do a followup hair analysis?

    My provoked urine tests don't show much in the way of metals anymore, but my hair analysis (interpreted with counting rules) does show disordered mineral transport.
     
  14. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I've been doing pharmaceutical grade fish oil since before I got ME (say about 17 years?). I got my last amalgam out a couple of years ago. I still have mercury toxicity (just tested recently).

    I can see where the right oil supplementation would help counteract the cell membrane disruption caused by the mercury (and other toxins), but I don't see where it would detox the mercury out.

    The PK protocol is basically methylation + PC. Basically the same as Rich Vank's simplified protocol.
     
  15. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    I'm not going to do a follow-up hair analysis right now - I'm going to see Dr. Kaufman on 9/1 and finances are stretched beyond thin right now. My regular doc does an annual hair analysis (not through Doctor's Data), which will be in January and I'll probably wait.

    Here's a link on the Quicksilver test: https://www.quicksilverscientific.com/mercury-testing/testing/mercury-tri-test

    It's completely different than hair analysis interpreted with Cutler's counting rules. Though I suppose the counting rules should work, shouldn't they, with any hair analysis done by a reputable lab?

    I was doing the Cutler protocol and had the quicksilver test done primarily because of symptoms, not test results - I would get very spacey, tired, trouble concentrating, woozy, after taking certain amino acids or anything that could have a "cleansing" reaction - if "cleansing" was in the description, I was in trouble, and I just don't get that reaction any more. It seemed to coincide right around the time I had the Quicksilver test done. BTW, if you want to get the Quicksilver test done, it has to be through a practitioner - it's not cheap, it was around $350 I think, but I found a really really nice guy in the L.A. area who ordered the test for me, it was on sale, and he didn't charge me a consultation fee for interpreting the results, as most practitioners do. He had the results e-mailed directly to me. No one else would do this. And then I called him afterwards and offered to pay for a phone consult, and he just talked to me and we discussed my results (which were surprisingly good) and no charge.

    So you could work with him even if you're not in the area - we did everything by phone and e-mail.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  16. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I think as long as the hair test also has a mineral portion to go along with the metals portion, it can be analyzed with Cutler's counting rules.

    I would have to delve back into his hair test interpretation book to get specific info on how to do tests other than Doctors Data. People on the Frequent Dose Chelation Yahoo group could possibly help too.
     
  17. Aerose91

    Aerose91 Senior Member

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    Similar, yes, just more specified in the lipid profile. PC being the most abundant lipid in our cell membranes and they tweak it to the correct 4:1 ratio.
     
  18. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Caledonia - I just realized that my statement "It's completely different than hair analysis interpreted with Cutler's counting rules" was probably misleading as it seems to imply that the Quicksilver Mercury Tri Test is just a hair analysis test. It uses hair, blood and urine samples and gives you totally information than a regular hair analysis.

    I know I went on to say something about the counting rules should work with any hair analysis, but I was referring there to the hair analysis my regular doctor does every year.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  19. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Yes, I was able to follow that :) As long as what your doc does every year includes a mineral portion, it may be able to be interpreted with Cutler's counting rules.
     
    Mary likes this.
  20. Mary

    Mary Senior Member

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    Re the Quicksilver Mercury Tri Test - actually some states let you order directly whereas others (including California) require you to go through a practitioner. Here's the info re ordering by state: https://www.quicksilverscientific.com/mercury-testing/testing/how-to-order-your-test-kits

    Depending on your results, they may recommend various products (which I didn't need or use). The chiro who ordered the testing said this product was very good: https://www.quicksilverscientific.com/solutions/imd-intestinal-cleanse but again, I didn't use it so can't comment on it.
     

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