Read this before trying choline.

[cristi_b]

I know, that we are all different. Just because I had this horrendous experience with choline, doesn't mean you will too.

Have you had any gastro symptoms on choline, notably gas/bloating? I ask because there are some bacteria(one of which is Proteus Mirabilis) that can feed on choline and contribute to the creation of a dangerous substance called TMAO. This TMAO has a lot of bad effects on the body, one being INSOMNIA(but there are many others). Might be worth considering testing your blood TMAO levels.

Also, the same nasty bacteria can use L-Carnitine so you need to be careful with trying that supplement, as it might make your condition worse.

 

[linusbert]

Yes, the brand name would also be good to know. Different brands come with different additives, fillers and binders. And in some cases only those might be responsible for side effects.

i didnt find a single good brand. there is one of a brand i tolerate but then not others.

TMAO levels.

400mg shouldnt be enough for reasonable tmao levels. in the studys the higher levels came with several gramms.

 

[ilivewithcfs]

Have you had any gastro symptoms on choline, notably gas/bloating?

No, I haven't.
Thanks for trying to help

 

[pamojja]

i didnt find a single good brand. there is one of a brand i tolerate but then not others.

Though I tolerated already every brand tried, I prefer it in powder form, to avoid binders and fillers.

 

[ilivewithcfs]

Update

I took @linusbert 's advice and added glycine and l-carnitine. I've been sleeping well ever since. I also feel better overall. I'm happy to say, that I returned to my pre-choline level of misery. Hopefully, this crisis is over, although you cannot be sure of anything with this disease.

Once again I want to thank @linusbert for helping me.

 

[linusbert]

very glad you got back to before. and thanks for update!

motivates me to give them both a shot. what form a glycine did you take?

 

[ilivewithcfs]

very glad you got back to before. and thanks for update!

motivates me to give them both a shot. what form a glycine did you take?

I'm taking sublingual pills 200 mg 3 times daily

 

[Wayne]

I took @linusbert 's advice and added glycine and l-carnitine. I've been sleeping well ever since.

Hi @ilivewithcfs -- Congratulations on that success! I feel sort of awed that you were dealing a very difficult and seemingly complex issue, and @linusbert was able to give such specific recommendations that ended up working so well. In fact, feels sort of miraculous. Kudos to linusbert!

 

[ilivewithcfs]

To be honest, things are not perfect. The night after I wrote this update I had trouble sleeping once again.
However, I still find l-carnitine and glycine incredibly effective, I feel better in general and my sleep is not as bad as it used to be, so I will definitely continue to take them. I'll keep searching for the ways to fix my sleep some other way. My doctor insists on increasing the dosage of SSRI, so I guess I'll try that, I don't see other options at the moment.

 

[Wayne]

My doctor insists on increasing the dosage of SSRI, so I guess I'll try that, I don't see other options at the moment.

Hi @ilivewithcfs -- I'm going to admit upfront I have a bias against most SSRIs (for numerous reasons), so I would urge caution when considering that. I'd be happy to share some of my reservations if you have any interest.

Just a few minutes ago, I was watching a video that actually talked about something that might help with sleep @Mary. You only have to watch it for about a minute from where it starts to get the gist. You never know when one seemingly little thing can end up making a big difference.

What Happens if You Consumed Omega-3 Fish Oils for 30 Days​

 

[ilivewithcfs]

Just a few minutes ago, I was watching a video that actually talked about something that might help with sleep @Mary. You only have to watch it for about a minute from where it starts to get the gist. You never know when one seemingly little thing can end up making a big difference.

What Happens if You Consumed Omega-3 Fish Oils for 30 Days​

Thanks for trying to help. I know about the benefits of omega-3, that's why I've been taking them daily for a decade. They are very helpful indeed, but not helpful enough in my situation.

 

[Wayne]

I know about the benefits of omega-3

Just a quick clarification: -- Eric Berg was specifically referring to the Vit. D from cod liver oil that helps with sleep, which in turn helps with calcium absorption. This is different than the benefits of omega 3's only. He prefers cod liver oil over fish oil for omega 3 supplementation because it contains lots of Vit. A and Vit. D which apparently fish oils don't have, or at least have as much as.

I watch a lot of Eric Berg's videos, and he consistently emphasizes the importance of adequate Vit. D intake and levels in the body. What I learned new today was it helps calcium absorption so much it can help some people get better sleep. I myself average about 10,000-20,000 IUs of Vit. D3 daily from capsules, and my various minor skin issues seem to have improved since starting a few weeks ago.

 

[ilivewithcfs]

I supplement all of that: omega-3, vit D, multivitamin and magnesium.

 

[cristi_b]

Some people report better sleep after taking Fatty15: short review.

I haven't tried it myself, as importing it in the EU has some additional hassles/fees, but if you live in the US it should be easier for you.

I've opened a topic to see if someone has any first hand experience with it, but so far no luck:

Anybody tried C15:0 / fatty 15 / pentadecanoic acid ?​

 

[Mary]

Just a few minutes ago, I was watching a video that actually talked about something that might help with sleep @Mary. You only have to watch it for about a minute from where it starts to get the gist. You never know when one seemingly little thing can end up making a big difference.

Thanks @Wayne - I've been taking fish oil for several years. Also, on more than one occasion, my insomnia has been linked to excess calcium! Several years ago hair analysis showed that my magnesium/calcium ratio was badly skewed in favor calcium and I was told to stop all calcium supplements and dairy products too, at least for awhile. It's a crazy balancing act because some time after that insomnia hit again, and yes, then I needed more calcium.

 

[L'engle]

my insomnia has been linked to excess calcium!

I had the worst insomnia of my life due to problems with calcium and magnesium balance. I needed to balance out vit d and calcium intake with vit k2(mk-4), magnesium and most recently boron.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Choline bitartrate contains 41% of choline, so a daily dose of 336 mg choline. A medium-sized egg contains about 144 mg.

Actually, choline was the only of the B-vitamins, which gave me side effects above 300 mg/d. Temporary jaw tensions. However, I always started with very low doses, sometimes even taking fractions of capsules, and increased over weeks, months and years. Out of precautions

This way, it took 2 years for me to reach above 300 mg/d of choline, and decreasing the dose again that side effect never occurred again. Again, years later, that intolerance above 300 mg/d ceased. And which was strongly correlated to increasing Inositol up to 10 g/d.

So the only way to avoid such accidents is to start every new supplement in ridiculous low doses, and increase very gradually only. That way a strong bad effect from too high dose right away, can most likely be avoided. And once the threshold is reached, where side effects would start, easiest reverted again.



Same way to proceed with B-complex, only start with a fraction of the content of a capsule.



Many B-vitamin in deficiency can have the symptom of insomnia!

Take a look at this post: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/doubts-about-b12-b9.92288/page-2#post-2463709

10 grams of inositol .....WOW! that's a huge dose, isn't it?
How did you figure out you need that much? How do you monitor or test your need for it?

 

[pamojja]

10 grams of inositol .....WOW! that's a huge dose, isn't it?
How did you figure out you need that much? How do you monitor or test your need for it?

Some things I wouldn't have access for exact testing. But conditions with favorable studies indicated some benefits. Inositol has been studied in doses of 12-18 g/d in clinical trials. In this case, I could only monitor lab-markers of the conditions, and of course symptoms.

My main conditions I wanted to improve were COPD and prediabetes. Endogenous production of inositol might be at about 4 g/d from glucose, which might be impaired in diabetes. And maybe about 1-2 g/d from diet.

For my conditions it worked already with 10 g/d supplemental for me. So on the one hand I save money, by having found a much lower dose effective than found in clinical trials (maybe because of long term use; 'start low and increase slow'), on the other hand it's of course safer than higher doses never tested really long term.

The vitamin I take at probably the hugest dose, in relation of the RDA, is Niacin at about 3 g/d. Here too, one has to go by related lab-markers and symptoms. Also, here I watched out for anything worsening in not that directly related lab-markers. Most important of those in detoxification, like liver and kidney enzymes.

However, 3 g(d of vitamin B3 is the average daily dose since starting to supplement 15 years ago. For inositol, that average is 7 g/d only. And a recent reduction to that average, hasn't manifested any worsening yet, other than with B3.

 

[Wayne]

10 grams of inositol .....WOW! that's a huge dose, isn't it?

Hi @aquariusgirl -- It is a lot, but not uncommon and is well documented to be an effective treatment for various brain and neurological issues. The following is the best resource I've discovered on the potential benefits of high dose inositol:

LISTENING TO INOSITOL: CLINICAL NOTES

 

[aquariusgirl]

this sucks, sorry to hear.

i suspect you got a neurotransmitter imbalance from the cholin supplementation.
this could be for various reasons, a overload in methylgroups in your body. aka overmethylation. as cholin is a big donor of methylgroups you could suffer from this. so it takes some time even after ceasing of taking it that it balances back.
if this is the case, you can try to take glycine, which is a methylgroup buffer. where as b3 acts as a sponge and just takes them away which then can lead to undermethylation, the glycine takes the excess and gives it back when needed.
you can get glycine naturally from bonebroth.

another reason for overmethylation can be that your supply with cholin did exceed your vitamins required to process it. methylgroup donors like cholin or methionine also need to go with the according vitamins required in methylation and cystein metabolism. if thats the case probably homocysteine is raised in blood.
some have the same problems from taking active methylated b vitamins even without cholin. so the excess production of neurotransmitters is also the problem, but its the other side of the coin.

accumulation of acetylcholin caused neurotransmitter imbalance. also probably too less enzymes and vitamins to remove it / break it down.
vitamin C is helping with reducing too much dopamin, which isnt your exact problem. but maybe it helps with acetylcholin too.

you can reduce your acetylgroups by taking plain l-carnitine (not the acetylcarnitine!). as normal carnitine act as a buffer for acectylgroups similiar like glycine does for methylgroups.

i would not recommend taking any methylated b vitamins in your current state. (that means no methylcobalamin and no methylfolate, no methionine, and probably no active b6 as p5p as it may drive up conversion of those neurotransmitters. also no acetylated vitamins like acetyl-carnitine.)
taking glycine and l-carnitine probably are the best shot to balance it out. in the long run also vitamins and methylgroup donors need to be kept in balance.
its probably best to then take those in tandem:
b-vitamins + methyldonor(cholin,methionin and others) + acetylbuffer(l-carnitine) + methylbuffer(glycine). if a lack of acetylgroups is the proble, acetylcarnitine might help. if acetylcarnitine makes things worse, then its l-carnitine.

Hey Linus. I always get some unpleasant burning brain sensation when I take intravenous choline...do you think I"m missing some stuff to metabolize it? I will go ask CHAT GPT ..but curious if you have any ideas?