Read this before trying choline.

[linusbert]

My results came in: my Nitro-Tyrosine was 626 nmol/L where the laboratory upper limit was 630 nmol/L. Since on the day of the blood draw my allergies were not that bad and the measured level was right at the upper limit, I am inclined to believe it is related to my chemical allergies. It is quite possible that, on my worse days, the nitro-tyrosine would be over the upper limit, so I will definitely keep on eye on this blood marker in the future in spite of the high cost for the test.

i really would go for a round of hydroxocobalamin 500-1000ug or even above.
nitro tyrosine is a marker for nitro radical stress. HYDROXOcobalamin is basically like a direct detox to that kind of ROS as it binds with NO and prevents the excessive formation.
therefore it does not fix the root problem (if the root problem isnt a b12 deficiency) but it can help prevent further damage to your body.

Choline's main effect is on the liver.
The liver is where meds are metabolized.

I wonder what the effect that choline can have on the liver that worsens a condition.

Let me think about this.

has big effects on the liver, beyond that its important in the methylation pathways as methylgroup donor. and also acetylation as acetylcholin later.

 

[cristi_b]

i really would go for a round of hydroxocobalamin 500-1000ug or even above.
nitro tyrosine is a marker for nitro radical stress. HYDROXOcobalamin is basically like a direct detox to that kind of ROS as it binds with NO and prevents the excessive formation.
therefore it does not fix the root problem (if the root problem isnt a b12 deficiency) but it can help prevent further damage to your body.

My vitamin B12 was measured at 676 pg/mL which is above average, I also eat a lot of meat so there's no chance of developing a deficiency. I've tried hydroxocobalamin and it causes sympathetic activation: I sleep less and become very irritable so unfortunately I cannot take it. Since NO has antimicrobial properties I tend to believe that there's some pathogen somewhere and my body is producing excess amounts to handle the infection.

 

[linusbert]

My vitamin B12 was measured at 676 pg/mL which is above average, I also eat a lot of meat so there's no chance of developing a deficiency. I've tried hydroxocobalamin and it causes sympathetic activation: I sleep less and become very irritable so unfortunately I cannot take it. Since NO has antimicrobial properties I tend to believe that there's some pathogen somewhere and my body is producing excess amounts to handle the infection.

its not so much about a b12 deficieny , its therapeutical use of a vitamin. you use the NO binding properties. too much can create a very dangerous ROS species. which wreaks havoc in the body. but of course you get the side effects of a high dose vitamin like imbalances and stuff. which is sad.
but 700 seams like a good enough level. i guess the body is able t oconvert to hydroxocobalamin if in need.

 

[tedecgp]

Hi, everyone. I want to write about my difficult fight to overcome horrible side effects of choline.

@ilivewithcfs thank you so much for sharing this. I identified relatively recently that I'm sensitive to most things that raise acetylcholine. It makes it easier to handle, knowing that I'm not alone or imagining things.

Since ~ mid 2023 I have intermittent periods of fatigue, brain fog, body heaviness, sometime later also sense of difficulty with breathing, significantly lowered mood, intrusive thoughts, emotional sensitivity...
I couldn't pinpoint any triggers for that. It can last a day or several days, also sometimes I can feel it coming and going away throughout the day, sometimes I can sense it being right in the middle of the scale between good and bad mood, and it's also not pleasant. I was thinking it was PEM-like, as it sometimes happens a day or two after exertion.

Trying to solve this, I tried Inosine Pranobex, after reading on reddit that it helped someone with PEM in Long Covid. It did not work for me, at all, made me more miserable than ever in three days. On second day I got brain fog, the third - I got very depressed, emotional, wanting to hide, guilty, very low self-esteem, intrusive thoughts of self-harm, fatigued and very tense at the same time. Basically all my symptoms amplified.

The day after stopping it, I got a rebound effect of very high mood, great energy. Subsequent day also was very positive. I've checked that Inosine Pranobex (or inosine itself) is known for enhancing cholinergic transmission.
I analyzed my diary and saw similar pattern with other choline-enhancing drugs, even antidepressant Trintellix and Omega 3s supplements, or TMG.
B6 induces brain fog for in me (active form is even worse). I think it was the same with B12.

Nevertheless the episodes still happen, despite trying to limit choline sources (it's difficult).

I'm trying to use Forskolin for this, not sure about effectiveness, I guess I'll see when I run out of current bottle.

Also thanks @linusbert for tips on addressing this. I tried B3 and Glycine in the past, but it seemed they didn't work. In fact a few times I've felt glycinate forms of Magnesium and Iron made me feel worse... But in my case, the symptoms are so intermittent and often resolve on their own, so a few times I attributed symptom reduction (or worsening) to some supplement that I just started, when in fact it's just part of 'normal' ebb and flow. It's difficult to find what's working consistently. The Inosine Pranobex reaction was so strong, it was obvious. Other that that, it's hard.
I might give glycine another try, maybe longer term.

There are more people affected by this sensitivity (see links below) but unfortunately, it's not studied from what I was able to find, so we're mostly in the dark.
Related things that *are/were* studied that can both lead to increased acetylcholine levels are:
1. a mutation leading to butyrylcholinesterase deficiency and
2. organophosphates poisoning (insecticides) - inhibiting butyrylcholinesterase
Butyrylcholinesterase is one of the two enzymes responsible for breaking down acetylcholine. When one is deficient in it, they might get adverse reaction to certain pre-surgery anesthetic compounds (basically, it works much longer for them than normally). But outside of this, it is not known to cause any issues. I even got my butyrylcholinesterase levels tested, they came back normal. So I guess the mechanism must be different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/depressionregimens/comments/v7zk01

https://www.reddit.com/r/LongCovid/comments/1fnq93k/_/m1ktwi5

 

[helen1]

@tedecgp
@ilivewithcfs
Thank you for this information tedecgp. I have butyrylcholinesterase deficiency (also called by six other names, mainly pseudocholinesterase deficiency) and have noticed I felt lousy on choline but had no idea why or if it was something else. I think I’ll stop taking it completely now that I know.

Huperzine A was a terrible experience also due to BChE deficiency. Aricept is on the list too if anyone suspects they have BChE and has considered taking aricept.

The most important drug interactions though are with the anesthetics succinylcholine and mivacurium, which can result in fatal consequences (as almost happened with me).

If you’ve had 23andme done, it’s downloadable from your raw data.

These groups have a higher incidence of the deficiency:

The highest incidence, 5-10%, is in
-Iranian Jews (10%)
-Iraqi Jews
-Aleutian First Nations

2.) Next highest %, in the Hindu caste Arya Vysya, has an incidence of 3%.

3.) The next highest incidence, 1.5%, is in
-Portuguese
-Basques

4.) All other ethnic populations
-0% or close to 0% incidence.

5.) Acquired incidence can be caused by:
-excess pesticide exposure,
-chronic infection,
-kidney or liver disease,
-malnutrition,
-major burns,
-cancer,
-various medications.

 

[Violeta]

@ilivewithcfs, I don't know if your symptoms from choline have cleared up yet, but I am seeing studies about berberine reversing some symptoms caused by choline. It has to do with TMAO, Trimethylamine N-oxide, if you are interested in looking it up.

 

[ilivewithcfs]

@ilivewithcfs, I don't know if your symptoms from choline have cleared up yet, but I am seeing studies about berberine reversing some symptoms caused by choline. It has to do with TMAO, Trimethylamine N-oxide, if you are interested in looking it up.

My symptoms haven't cleared up yet, my sleep is still not the same. I will look into berberine. Thanks.