Read this before trying choline.

[ilivewithcfs]

Hi, everyone. I want to write about my difficult fight to overcome horrible side effects of choline.

I started to take choline bitartrate about a month ago. It seemed to help at first, but after a few days I started to have trouble sleeping. I gave up choline right away, and yet my insomnia kept getting worse and worse. I took handfuls of various sleeping pills, which didn't work. I felt like I was in hell, I had suicidal thoughts all the time. My doctor had no idea how to help me, he just increased the dosage of sleeping pills, and that didn't work. Couple weeks ago I started to take anticholinergic medications (dimenhydrinate and oxybutynin), and after that I finally had some improvement. At the moment I'm still taking anticholinergics and lots of sleeping pills, and my sleep is much better, although still not normal. When it comes to CFS symptoms- my baseline is much worse, than it had been before choline. I've been sick for many years, and I got used to the fact, that many supplements don't work/stop working, but it's the first time, when I got so much worse after a supplement.

I know, that we are all different. Just because I had this horrendous experience with choline, doesn't mean you will too. Just make sure, that if you do get nasty side effects, then give up this supplement and start anticholinergic meds ASAP. There are ton of them on the market, some are OTC.

 

[linusbert]

this sucks, sorry to hear.

i suspect you got a neurotransmitter imbalance from the cholin supplementation.
this could be for various reasons, a overload in methylgroups in your body. aka overmethylation. as cholin is a big donor of methylgroups you could suffer from this. so it takes some time even after ceasing of taking it that it balances back.
if this is the case, you can try to take glycine, which is a methylgroup buffer. where as b3 acts as a sponge and just takes them away which then can lead to undermethylation, the glycine takes the excess and gives it back when needed.
you can get glycine naturally from bonebroth.

another reason for overmethylation can be that your supply with cholin did exceed your vitamins required to process it. methylgroup donors like cholin or methionine also need to go with the according vitamins required in methylation and cystein metabolism. if thats the case probably homocysteine is raised in blood.
some have the same problems from taking active methylated b vitamins even without cholin. so the excess production of neurotransmitters is also the problem, but its the other side of the coin.

accumulation of acetylcholin caused neurotransmitter imbalance. also probably too less enzymes and vitamins to remove it / break it down.
vitamin C is helping with reducing too much dopamin, which isnt your exact problem. but maybe it helps with acetylcholin too.

you can reduce your acetylgroups by taking plain l-carnitine (not the acetylcarnitine!). as normal carnitine act as a buffer for acectylgroups similiar like glycine does for methylgroups.

i would not recommend taking any methylated b vitamins in your current state. (that means no methylcobalamin and no methylfolate, no methionine, and probably no active b6 as p5p as it may drive up conversion of those neurotransmitters. also no acetylated vitamins like acetyl-carnitine.)
taking glycine and l-carnitine probably are the best shot to balance it out. in the long run also vitamins and methylgroup donors need to be kept in balance.
its probably best to then take those in tandem:
b-vitamins + methyldonor(cholin,methionin and others) + acetylbuffer(l-carnitine) + methylbuffer(glycine). if a lack of acetylgroups is the proble, acetylcarnitine might help. if acetylcarnitine makes things worse, then its l-carnitine.

 

[ilivewithcfs]

Thank you, that's really helpful.

 

[godlovesatrier]

I've been getting this from b complex post COVID. Maybe it's a severity thing. But yeah not nice. Thankfully temporary for me

 

[L'engle]

It's snuck into a lot of vitamin compounds. Something to watch out for!

 

[LINE]

It is always best to use the full spectrum of B vitamins otherwise, imbalances can occur. There was another user on PR that had the same experience. (the same holds true for amino acids and minerals or perhaps fatty acids).

 

[ilivewithcfs]

It is always best to use the full spectrum of B vitamins otherwise, imbalances can occur. There was another user on PR that had the same experience. (the same holds true for amino acids and minerals or perhaps fatty acids).

Full spectrum of b vitamins also gave me insomnia, but it went away after giving them up.

 

[pamojja]

I know, that we are all different. Just because I had this horrendous experience with choline, doesn't mean you will too. Just make sure, that if you do get nasty side effects,

Good to know for others would also to know, how much per day in which form of choline you took?

Full spectrum of b vitamins also gave me insomnia, but it went away after giving them up.

Was this dietary doses of B vitamins, or with multiples of the RDA?

 

[ilivewithcfs]

Good to know for others would also to know, how much per day in which form of choline you took?

Was this dietary doses of B vitamins, or with multiples of the RDA?

I took choline bitartrate 410 mg twice a day.

When it comes to the B vitamins - the dosages there were 2 -3 times higher, than RDA, but didn't exceed maximum daily allowance.

 

[Viala]

If you are react this way to choline, you may also be vulnerable to other vitamins like B3, B9, B12 and to Betaine HCl and TMG which are choline derived supplements. Meat and especially eggs are also high in choline, dairy is ok.

Years ago when I started to take B vitamin complex I had to stop it quickly because of the side effects, then I tested each vitamin separately to know which one was problematic. Form of the vitamin also matters, to make it more fun, but it helped me a lot to know which things I need to avoid. After a while I could introduce high amount of some vitamins, but not each one of them. I believe our requirements depend a lot on our SNPs and also diet type.

 

[pamojja]

I took choline bitartrate 410 mg twice a day.

Choline bitartrate contains 41% of choline, so a daily dose of 336 mg choline. A medium-sized egg contains about 144 mg.

Actually, choline was the only of the B-vitamins, which gave me side effects above 300 mg/d. Temporary jaw tensions. However, I always started with very low doses, sometimes even taking fractions of capsules, and increased over weeks, months and years. Out of precautions

This way, it took 2 years for me to reach above 300 mg/d of choline, and decreasing the dose again that side effect never occurred again. Again, years later, that intolerance above 300 mg/d ceased. And which was strongly correlated to increasing Inositol up to 10 g/d.

So the only way to avoid such accidents is to start every new supplement in ridiculous low doses, and increase very gradually only. That way a strong bad effect from too high dose right away, can most likely be avoided. And once the threshold is reached, where side effects would start, easiest reverted again.

When it comes to the B vitamins - the dosages there were 2 -3 times higher, than RDA, but didn't exceed maximum daily allowance.

Same way to proceed with B-complex, only start with a fraction of the content of a capsule.

yet my insomnia kept getting worse and worse.

Many B-vitamin in deficiency can have the symptom of insomnia!

Take a look at this post: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/doubts-about-b12-b9.92288/page-2#post-2463709

 

[ilivewithcfs]

I want to add something about my b-vitamins experience. For a long time I've been taking a multivitamin with the dosages of b vitamins, that do not exceed RDA. And this multivitamin doesn't cause any problems. B12 in various forms and dosages didn't do anything good or bad, same with niacin and b6, choline clearly makes me crazy, so I'll just stick to the multivitamin and that's it.

 

[pamojja]

Of course, In my case only, choline was essential to reverse a NAFLD. And other B-vitamins gradually increased, some to megadoses, to bring other chronic conditions into remission.

 

[ilivewithcfs]

Of course, In my case only, choline was essential to reverse a NAFLD. And other B-vitamins gradually increased, some to megadoses, to bring other chronic conditions into remission.

It really sucks, that CFS patients have similar symptoms, yet very different responds to meds. It's like walking on a minefield. I'm really scared to try anything new, but I'm going to have to.

 

[Carl]

Of course, In my case only, choline was essential to reverse a NAFLD. And other B-vitamins gradually increased, some to megadoses, to bring other chronic conditions into remission.

Yours is similar to my experiences. I tend towards NAFLD and painful liver if I don't consume enough Choline. I would say that genetics probably influence people's experiences.

 

[pamojja]

It really sucks, that CFS patients have similar symptoms, yet very different responds to meds

I don't consider essential nutrients as medications. Especially when started in tiny doses and increased gradually. There is no reason to rush with nutrients, since it often took decades, also with lesser utilization at older age, to become deficient. It will take years to correct the damage.

Also, without mood issues in my case, I can't evaluate nutrients through symptoms that easy, but see their effects sometimes years ahead in improving various lab-markers.

I would say that genetics probably influence people's experiences.

And past medical history (NAFLD started with 7 malarias and their various pharmacological treatment in my case; CKD with ibuprofen), toxic exposures, different diets, etc.

Especially without genetic testing, consider it only important to start with the lowest doses, for any sensitivity (from whichever cause) to be caught right from the beginning, and always easier to correct, this way.

The only med I take is LDN.

 

[Wayne]

choline clearly makes me crazy

Hi @ilivewithcfs -- Something I try to keep in mind when my body reacts--whether good or bad--to a new supplement, is that often the brand name can make a big difference. Some companies are clearly better than others when it comes to offering quality products.

I'm not suggesting you should try a different brand, especially given how badly you were affected by this. But brand name should be kept in mind when discerning whether it's the actual supplement, or a particular brand that's causing a reaction.

Sorry you had to go through such trying times! And thanks for reporting your experience as a cautionary note for others.

 

[JES]

Choline bitartrate contains 41% of choline, so a daily dose of 336 mg choline. A medium-sized egg contains about 144 mg.

Yep, but many of us do not react the same way to the vitamins found in food as in pill form. It's not only about the amount either as eggs do indeed contain quite a lot of choline. I would say I respond more strongly to the egg equivalent dose of choline in supplement form than from eating an egg in the morning, which gives me practically no negative side effects.

 

[linusbert]

Hi @ilivewithcfs -- Something I try to keep in mind when my body reacts--whether good or bad--to a new supplement, is that often the brand name can make a big difference. Some companies are clearly better than others when it comes to offering quality products.

I'm not suggesting you should try a different brand, especially given how badly you were affected by this. But brand name should be kept in mind when discerning whether it's the actual supplement, or a particular brand that's causing a reaction.

absolutely true, i order often the same supplement from multiple companies and everyone tastes different and has different side effects or none. to some i am allergic to others not.

I would say I respond more strongly to the egg equivalent dose of choline in supplement form than from eating an egg in the morning, which gives me practically no negative side effects.

same for me. i can eat 4-6 eggs on a day and the only thing if at all i notice is gut discomfort the next day, but thats only from whole eggs because egg whites are hard to digest. egg yolks so far no problem, and thats where the good stuff is in.
but i have a hard time to throw away the egg whites and eat only the yolks. if our dogs come for visits its no problem, they eat the whites, i they yolk. everyone happy.

natural nutrition mostly comes bound to the right proteins or is in the best form the body can use without much efforts. i cannot eat any iron or copper supplements even in small amounts, but liver and meat is zero problems.
i suspect that synthetic stuff besides being contaminated with chemicals and unwanted stuff is harder for the body to process which costs energy as well as other nutrition like proteins. free form vitamins in the blood are radicals the body must eliminate fast.

 

[pamojja]

i order often the same supplement from multiple companies and everyone tastes different and has different side effects or none. to some i am allergic to others not.

Yes, the brand name would also be good to know. Different brands come with different additives, fillers and binders. And in some cases only those might be responsible for side effects.

I would say I respond more strongly to the egg equivalent dose of choline in supplement form than from eating an egg in the morning, which gives me practically no negative side effects.

That's why I asked for more details. It would be very unfortunate if, due to just one strong reaction to a particular supplement and dose, that others would quit an otherwise essential nutrient. With tire consequences too.

Again, always best to start with a tiny exploratory dose. And increase gradually over long periods. ANY supplement with their often unknown additives might cause unexpected bad effects. And maybe there is a dietary item, which provides the nutrient in a much tolerable form. Like eggs and beef-liver (but in this case would prefer organic grown only).