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Pyruvate dehydrogenase function depends on thiamine (B1)

Asklipia

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For the moment all is well!
I wonder if it is necessary to take the magnesium (as recommended somewhere but I can"t remember where) away from the times when I take thiamine?
If they work together, is it not better to take them together?
Taking mag as the same time as B1 would cut by half the times when I have to remember to take something!
 

Chocolove

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I wonder if it is necessary to take the magnesium (as recommended somewhere but I can"t remember where) away from the times when I take thiamine?
This was what was found:
https://quizlet.com/6340036/vitamins-and-minerals-agonistantagonist-flash-cards/
B1 Thiamine
Agonist: Vitamin C, Citric Acid.
Antagonist: Mg, Ca, Cu, Zn, Mn, Fe, Alcohol (ethanol)

Despite extensive searches to verify/corroborate this alleged antagonism; using buzzwords including: magnesium, thiamine, antagonist, vitamin mineral interaction, compatibility, "take within two hours," nutrient interactions absorption ... I am not yet finding anything.

Perhaps confusion emanated from recommendations to avoid antacids (which sometimes contain magnesium). Aluminum based antacids are particularly detrimental to thiamine absorption.

As per:
https://books.google.com/books?id=4... of magnesium and thiamine absorption&f=false

Since magnesium aids sleep, I usually just take it in the evening and thus it doesn't have much potential to interfere with other nutrients including thiamine.
 

Chocolove

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@JasonUT More detail on the thiamine dosage system Dr. Antonio Costantini was using to treat chronic fatigue is described here:

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2012147003A1?cl=en

Vitamin b1 for treatment of chronic fatigue
Publication date Nov 1, 2012
WO 2012147003 A1
Abstract
The present invention refers to the use of vitamin B1 and to pharmaceutical compositions comprising it, in the treatment of chronic fatigue in patients suffering from multiple sclerosis, chronic hepatitis C, from multinodular goiter, celiac disease, Parkinson's disease, cerebrovascular disease, ulcerative colitis, Crohn's disease, thyroidites, Basedow's disease, fibromyalgia, psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis. The present invention also refers to the treatment of chronic fatigue in association with other symptoms, such as depression, sleep disturbances, anxiety, irritability, cognitive impairment, muscle pain, cardiac arrhytmias, cold intolerance, in patients suffering from the aforesaid diseases.


Excerpt:
DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

...According to the present invention, vitamin B1 is administered to patients suffering from at least one of the following pathologies: multiple sclerosis, chronic hepatitis C, multinodular goiter, celiac disease, Parkinson's disease, cerebrovascular disease, ulcerative colitis, thyroidites, Basedow's disease, fibromyalgia, psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, for the treatment of chronic fatigue. Vitamin B1 could be administered orally, with a dosage of at least 600 mg per day, or intramuscularly, with a dosage of at least 50 mg every three or four days.

Chronic fatigue associated with these diseases could appear with other symptoms, such as sleep disturbances, depression, anxiety, irritability, cognitive impairment, muscle pain, cardiac arrhytmias, cold intolerance, dry skin.

In an embodiment, vitamin B1 could be administered orally with a dosage comprised between 600 and 1800 mg per day for female patients and between 1200-2400 mg for male patients, or could be administered intramuscularly with a dosage comprised between 50 and 150 mg every three or four days, preferably 100 mg every five or seven days.

In an embodiment, vitamin B1 could be administered orally with a dosage comprised between 600 and 900 mg per day for patients with a weight lower than 60 Kg, and between 1000 and 2400 mg for patients with a weight higher than 60 Kg.

Vitamin B1 according to the aforesaid dosages could be used for treating chronic fatigue associated with some among chronic inflammatory-autoimmune diseases such as ulcerative colitis, thyroidites, Basedow's disease, fibromyalgia, psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis...
 

Asklipia

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Ingredients of Alinamin Ex Plus here.
I am aware that Takeda has a new formulation, called Alinamin Ex Gold. Ingredients of Alinamin Ex Gold here.
Basically, the new Gold formulation replaces cyanocobalamin with mecobalamin, B5 (calcium pantothenate) with B9 (folic acid), B6 with Pyridoxal phosphate hydrate.
Well here is the sequel to this post as promised: last week we ran out of Alinamin Ex Plus and replaced it with Alinamin Ex Gold. We were only taking one pill per day, which is 1/3 of the dose, together with a bunch of the other thiamine supplements. After 3 days we both had a big crash, on only 0.33 mg folic acid per day. That is a total of 1 mg folic acid. It took us two days to recover completely.
:devil: FFP :devil:
Be well!
Asklipia
 
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aquariusgirl

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So I experimented w/high dose B1 fir a few days (400 -600mg) & felt cognitive benefits..I tired to supp enough magnesium as well.

Then I felt really lousy for a couple of days. Used up all my magnesium? Paradoxical re-pletion effect?

I got a big oxolate dump I think.

And that's when I realized.susan costed Owens is adamant B1 deficiency is a factor in secondary hyperoxoluria.

Constantini is giving massive doses of B1. Massive. So either there's a transport blockage or they are massively deficient in B1.

Well that could add up to a huge oxolate problem right? @alicec
 

JasonUT

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@aquariusgirl
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

What prompted you to try B1?
Did you have nutrient testing done that showed B1 deficiency?
What form of B1 did you try?

I am on day 15 of lipothiamine b1 and I am having these occasional odd episodes. Oxalates, magnesium, paradox, other? I can't figure it out yet.
 
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alicec

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Well that could add up to a huge oxolate problem right?
B1 deficiency can lead to oxalate accumulation and oxalate accumulation can interfere with B1-dependent enzymes, so it's a bit of a vicious cycle.

Repleting B1 can certainly cause oxalate dumping, so yes, massive doses of B1 could indeed cause problems for some people.
 

JasonUT

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B1 deficiency can lead to oxalate accumulation and oxalate accumulation can interfere with B1-dependent enzymes, so it's a bit of a vicious cycle.

Repleting B1 can certainly cause oxalate dumping, so yes, massive doses of B1 could indeed cause problems for some people.
This does sound like a terribly viscous cycle. What do we do? Any suggested reading? I know my oxalates are high per OAT.
 

aquariusgirl

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@aquariusgirl
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

What prompted you to try B1?
Did you have nutrient testing done that showed B1 deficiency?
What form of B1 did you try?

I am on day 15 of ttfd b1 and I am having these occasional odd episodes. Oxalates, magnesium, paradox, other? I can't figure it out yet.
Just trying it to try it....benfotiami e
 

alicec

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This does sound like a terribly viscous cycle. What do we do? Any suggested reading? I know my oxalates are high per OAT.
High oxalates on an OAT may reflect high dietary intake or perhaps that you were just in the middle of a dump. Consistently high results are more worrying and a combination with high glceric and/or glcolic is the most worrying of all since this is likely to reflect endogenous production.

B6 is central to breaking the worst vicious cycle of all since B6-dependent enzymes ultimately turn oxalate precursors into harmless glycine. It is adverse effects on these enzymes, usually from prolonged oxidative stress, that is the driving force of endogenous oxalate production. Once oxalates begin accumulating they further damage the enzymes. Very high doses of B6 can help drive the enzymes to again start removing precursors before oxalates can be formed.

A low oxalate diet takes some pressure off bodily systems. Antioxidants can help offset the advserse effects of oxidative stress. Other B vitamins such as B1 and biotin can help drive enzyme systems which are collateral damage in the oxalate cascade. The presence of certain probiotics in the gut can be important in signalling that it is safe to dump oxalates while a number of other supplements have been found to be helpful in dealing with the effects of oxalates.

I have uploaded a summary I prepared based on information from Susan Costen Owens and a simplified list of low oxalate foods.
 

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aquariusgirl

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@alicec curious to know how you get your magnesium in the high range on RBC tests?

I struggle.....possibly because I was wasting so much B6 for a long time
 

alicec

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curious to know how you get your magnesium in the high range on RBC tests?
For quite a few years now I have used topical magnesium daily - about 5 ml saturated Epsom salts solution plus about 5 ml magnesium oil applied directly to the skin followed by body lotion - plus swallow 400 mg magnesium as bisglycinate (in two doses).
 

sb4

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@aquariusgirl
If you live near the sea, soaking in seawater at least 25 mns at a time as often as you can. I did it for years 100 days a year, and in all these years I was OK. When I had to stop I went downhill.
I think we can absorb lots of minerals and water from the soles of our feet. You are also grounded and outside in natural light, with calming landscape.
 

JasonUT

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@alicec

Per OAT, my Oxalic have been consistently high at 126, 172, and 94 with normal range being 8.9 - 67. My Glyceric and Glycolic have been in normal range.

Per testing, I am very deficient in B1 and B3. Borderline deficient in B6 and B9. Biotin appears to be okay.

Cysteine, Glutathione and Taurine are low per Methylation Pathways Panel.

Trying to fit all the pieces together.
 

Chocolove

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Well that could add up to a huge oxolate problem right?
@JasonUT High oxylates onboard may indicate deficiencies in thiamine (B1), pyridoxine (B6), and vitamin A (not carotene.)

Biochem Int. 1986 Jan;12(1):71-9.
Absorption of glyoxylate and oxalate in thiamine and pyridoxine deficient rat intestine.
Sidhu H, Gupta R, Farooqui S, Thind SK, Nath R.
Abstract

Dietary deficiency of thiamine or pyridoxine has been shown to produce hyperoxaluria and renal stone formation in man
and experimental animals.

To determine the possible contribution of exogenous glyoxylate and oxalate, the intestinal transport of [14C] - oxalate and [14C] - glyoxylate was measured in vitamin B1 and B6 deficient rats and their respective pair-fed controls. Results indicate that glyoxylate and oxalate are passively diffused from lumen to lamina propria in thiamine deficient and their pair-fed controls with no significant change in the rate of uptake of both the substrates.

However B6 deficient rats showed a significant enhancement in the rate of oxalate uptake due to development of a new biphasic transport system. The rate of glyoxylate uptake by simple passive diffusion remained unaltered in pyridoxine deficiency.

PMID: 3947375
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3947375
********************************************************************************************************

Ann Nutr Metab. 1990;34(2):104-11.
Comparative studies on the effect of vitamin A, B1 and B6 deficiency on oxalate metabolism in male rats.
Sharma S1, Sidhu H, Narula R, Thind SK, Nath R.
Author information
1
Department of Biochemistry, Postgraduate Institute of Medical Education and Research, Chandigarh, India.
Erratum in
  • Ann Nutr Metab 1992;36(4):244.
Abstract
The study was conducted to investigate the effect of vitamin A, B1 and B6 deficiency on oxalate metabolism in rats.

A significant hyperoxaluria was the common observation in all the three vitamin deficiencies (vitamin B6 greater than vitamin A greater than vitamin B1).

The activities of hepatic glycolate oxidase and glycolate dehydrogenase were markedly enhanced in vitamin-A- and vitamin-B6-deficient rats. However, lactate dehydrogenase levels remained unaltered in these deficiencies as compared to their respective pair-fed controls.

Vitamin B1 deficiency of 4 weeks' duration could augment the activity of glycolate oxidase only, with no alterations in the glycolate dehydrogenase and lactate dehydrogenase levels. Intestinal oxalate uptake studies revealed increased bio-availability of oxalate from the gut in vitamin-A- and vitamin-B6-deficient rats. Thus, the results suggest the relative contribution of both exogenous as well as endogenous oxalate in the process of calculogenesis under various nutritional stress conditions in rat.

PMID: 2369074
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2369074
 

Chocolove

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I got a big oxolate dump I think.
@JasonUT

http://oxvox.com/oxalate-dumping-symptoms-what-to-expect/
...I so often (and loudly!) encourage people to lower their oxalate intake gradually. While this may not produce such a sudden and clear reversal of symptoms, it will also prevent an abrupt onset of severe dumping, which can be painful and, on the whole, quite detrimental to the health of the individual...

There is good news, however. For starters, most individuals, once they have been through one or two rounds of dumping, will be able to recognize their symptoms right away. And often, simply taking certain supplements will help alleviate the symptoms, or at least make them bearable.

My first line of defense against dumping (and a supplement I take every day “whether I need it or not”), is magnesium (see what brand of magnesium I use myself on this page). While calcium has been shown to be more effective at binding oxalate in the gut, my own experience has taught me that my body likes to use magnesium for binding oxalate once it is in the bloodstream. Since I don’t have any problem with my kidney function or other issues which would contraindicate magnesium supplementation, this is my preferred method of mopping up excess oxalate. As a lovely side effect, I’ve found a nice decrease in blood pressure and heart palpitations as I’ve increased and maintained my level of magnesium intake.

I’ve also found relief using calcium and vitamin D (see my post on the importance of vitamin D to low oxalate dieters here), while various B vitamins sometimes help with things like restless legs and yeast overgrowth (wich is a common problem in oxalate-affected individuals). Alas, I have discovered over time that some of the same vitamins which once helped me deal with oxalate symptoms, now just force me to dump more and harder. This is one of the ways in which dumping can change, even in the same individual, over time.

I have also learned that as you heal other issues, dumping can become a much milder event...
 

aquariusgirl

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I have a dilemma : I am chelating lead but it also pulls magnesium which is already low.....w/out magnesium I cannot restore B1


What to do?