Pulse oximeter to measure oxygenation during d-lactic acidosis, air hunger, hyperventilation

EddieB

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I seem to keep getting a gastro- illness thats like a stomach flu and causes gastroperesis. So that is the "thing" that keeps happening...once a year, maybe more...that I think in fact gave me much more severe ME in 2018 (twice, within 2 months this happened, near death experiences each time). My theory is: a virus is reactivating, and is trying to possibly kill me.

So air hungar gets real bad when that happens , every time. So I don't have much intestinal action during my gastro problems which are stomach related, somehow.
It seems there has to be a variable. A virus, or gut overgrowth?. Everything else is just a symptom of?

I’m sorry, Avenger, were you able to test for lactic acid and treat it?
 
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Avenger

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Yes, these are some of my worst symptoms. Along with severe fatigue.
Were you able to test for and treat the D lactic acid?
I have a diagnosis from a specialist Gastroenterologist based upon my symptoms and response to antibiotics (I had already had a diagnosis of Bacterial Overgrowth), but I have so far not been allowed to have the D-Lactic assays performed when I am unwell! I think that the NHS do not want this corroborated; but I am seeing another Consultant for a Fecal Transplant; the main reason being that I do not want to continue using antibiotics, when the end result will be total resistance at some point. Metronidazole worked well for many years, but I have now gained resistance to 5 other antibiotics.

But if it became a choice between quality of life and antibiotics, I would still continue antibiotics, because I was close to suicide on a number of occasions during the 18 year delay in diagnosis. Exacerbation's of illness are both painful and distressing. Having to suffocate, with reduced mental function, systemic pain and fatigue, tachyarrhythms, abdominal pain and other symptoms while some Doctors all but laugh it off is beyond cruel.

I have been put on a FODMAP diet, which helps; but symptoms still return (If you read a number of reports they state No Carbohydrates; FODMAP still contains Carbohydrates and it is easy to make mistakes or when the correct food is not available; the FODMAP diet is supposed to decrease fermentation in the small intestine, but i still have returning symptoms. This does not mean that the diet will not work for everyone and it is well worth a try.

The main Carbohydrates that ferment easily and give me the worst exacerbation's are Bread, Pasta, Wheat Biscuits, Pizza, possibly Yogurt, Beans etc. I often develop symptoms between 1-3 meals and then cannot stop the symptoms for days without antibiotics.

I originally used a Low and then 0% Carbohydrate and 0% simple sugars, which works much better, but is incredibly difficult to adhere to and still easy to make mistakes. FMT could reset my microbiome as used for C.Diff which is another form of Bacterial Overgrowth. FMT has already been used for a number of different illnesses including ME, MS, Ulcerative Colitis, Crohns, IBS, Autism, Inflammatory Bowel Disease.

I am in a strange position where I have a formal diagnosis, but after nearly 4 years of receiving antibiotics and dietary treatments and requests for a D-Lactic assay from my Consultant when ill, there has been fierce resistance to set up the Assays necessary to corroborate my diagnosis; Fecal Assay, D-Lactic Assay and Blood Gas Assay (Birmingham Children's Hospital has used a simple Fecal Assay to verify the Overgrowth of Bacteria in children with D-Lactic acidosis). Spinal Fluid and Urine also contain D-Lactate during exacerbation's.

When I suggested to one Doctor that there may be other patients with D-Lactic acidosis, he became irate and told me that he has seen many patients and they had mental health problems. I find it difficult to comprehend how closed the NHS is in general to ME/CFS.

I do not believe that Doctors act independently as they used to, but act as a conglomerate, tow the party line and kowtow to the party leadership. ME/CFS is a political issue and my belief is that if the Pace Trials were fixed, then this shows intent to suppress any belief that ME/CFS is real. It would also mean a huge legal action against the NHS; so they have put themselves in a position where they have nothing to lose in continuing to suppress all belief.

It is easy to dismiss the abdominal symptoms as something else, or secondary to this illness; but 95% of ME/CFS have gastrointestinal symptoms.

It is my belief that this is all due to abnormal microbiome; This sounds relatively benign, but D-Lactate is a horrendous Organic acid that can cause severe multiple symptoms including breathing difficulty. We also live in an age where the microbiome is under constant assault from multiple environmental issues that we have created; Antibiotics, Fluoride, Pesticides and also Viral assaults, where the Microbiome can be altered because some Bacteria are advantaged and enabled to destroy other Bacteria causing some species to increase while decimating other species. There is also a drive for Virus to replicate and the microbiome is an easy target.
 

Avenger

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It seems there has to be a variable. A virus, or gut overgrowth?. Everything else is just a symptom of?
Virus may be implicated in Bacterial Overgrowth and Bacterial Depletion;

The Gut is a main target for Virus as in Covid-19. The drive for a Virus to replicate in Gut Bacteria can also advantage some Bacteria and deplete others (HIV is now being treated with Pre and Probiotics to stop the progression within the microbiome that eventually breaks down the Gut Barrier).

''HIV subjects are known to have a compromised gut barrier function and the observation that Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus species are depleted among the gut bacteria populations in such patients [23] is consistent with earlier studies attributing improved gut barrier and immune function to these species [42].'' https://www.hindawi.com/journals/grp/2014/803185/
 

EddieB

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Yes this is all so difficult and frustrating. I too have battled with this for over 30 years with little success.

I have tried a number of times to restrict carbs, but always end up losing so much weight there is never a benefit.
I recently went 4 months without breads or starches. I lost 12 lbs and became very weak. I went back to eating them and so far have gained back 6 lbs and until a few days ago, was able to walk outside. So for now, carbs are on the menu.

I dug up this organic acid test from a few years ago. I was very sick at the time, but I would imagine these values change quickly.
ED628118-9A5D-4ACC-AA3E-874E39327943.jpeg


I agree with you that the root lies in the micro biome. I have finally found a primary doctor and a gastrologist that are in agreement on that. I’m not sure how helpful they will be because of the medical establishment, but it’s a step in the right direction. The covid virus is going to leave thousands of people with symptoms like ours, and they are going to be forced to look for answers. I hope we all can find some help soon.
 
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I also get some awful mouth sores during a flare up, do you have any of these as well?
Do we dare to switch anatomy locations?

I don't get mouth sores very often, but do occasionally. Like the low b vitamin thing...

My mouth itself is sore and inflammed all over, boiling over and the Sahara desert- much of the time. And I do chinese medicine (well, I've been off protocols recently)...so my tongue runnuth over with evidence of my malaise. So during acute run down states, my mouth gets acutely worse. On a normal day, this doesn't start til around 4 pm (mouth, swelling).

My latest gastro bummer event, like the stomach flu, the pulp my teeth are rooted in was so swollen, most of my teeth were numb. My tongue doesn't fit in the space provided. Nasty blood blisters form underneath- on the spleen meridian channel. That first appeared- when I visited my dying mother for a week a few years ago, now they come and go. A week of bedside handwringing, I was ill for weeks thereafter and that was a new symptom- of so much heat blood blisters were visible. (they are tiny, but look just like a blood blister). I was then unable to rush back up to see my mother who then went into hospice. I considered how ill I would be if I was now to return to her bedside....in the state I was in.

So I have to bear the guilt of being too sick to be with my own mother.

I went around and around on this mouth thing for a while between the dentist and the doctor, the one who stared- she would stare- and ask me What did the dentist say? )(that maybe I am allergic to nuts). The dentist is the only living person who posssibly saw and rather grasped something is up there. All this caused severe random pain in teeth, also. Some of this swelling is likely mast cell, or a type of angiodema. My lips swell also, sometimes they feel scalded. Sometimes the skin feels- like it was injured, or burned.

More details: I was scheduled for a tooth implant. Which I did not want to do, but felt overwhlelmed by how few teeth I have left, and that once this one goes, alot more trouble ensues. So I was quite concerned about this swelling, the implications of having a fake tooth. And frankly- that I'm expected to show up at 8 am, the bathroom is unacceptably a mile away down some long hallway, and I can't imagine enduring this procedure.

During my thorough med history review, I raised this issue with the dental surgeon. He said: He would have to see that, and that he did not believe me.

Oh? I was floored.

I then proceeded to watch my body fabricate a severe abdominal pain, severe enough you'd want to rush to the doctor right away (my appendix are already gone). This goes on for 10 days at least. I cancelled the surgery. The abdominal pain subsided about 24 hours later.

that was my body refusing to have anything to do with that dentist, who does not believe me, as I calmly described this swelling cycle.

What a relief. Meanwhile, I just keep going with that same tooth and, well someday, that will be that. And then that will be that.
 
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I have tried a number of times to restrict carbs, but always end up losing so much weight there is never a benefit.
I recently went 4 months without breads or starches. I lost 12 lbs and became very weak. I went back to eating them and so far have gained back 6 lbs and until a few days ago, was able to walk outside. So for now, carbs are on the menu.
I have had similar reactions to going extremely low carb. And I was down to the weight I was when I was 20, but when I was 20 there were muscles, and now there don't seem to be muscles.

I seem to manage or at least tolerate- oh I can have a piece of nice whole wheat toast and survive it. A second piece of toast is regretable. I can handle some rice, some barley in soup, I seem to be able to eat well cooked beans ok. But I need real protein in the food, and don't seem to be getting much fuel out of anything.

I do real well on potatoes, and other types of roasted vegetables that are starchy seem ok. That was after not eating much of that, due to the rumored blood sugar issues. These seem very good for my gut, as those types of vegetables reduce wind (IBS-d).


Unfortunately I could really use a gastro person but can't imagine the tests they'd demand. I don't hold up well in the presence of the medical community.

I do not believe that Doctors act independently as they used to, but act as a conglomerate, tow the party line and kowtow to the party leadership.
Sadly, its similar in the US for possibly different reasons. In our case, the insurance industry has its methods to keep the money in their wallet for as long as possible. WHen I had the cheaper type of insurance, I experienced 100% denial of all referrals and 100% misdiagnosis of those (I think it is on purpose...). So it is generally months to actually obtain the referral you required. And I have yet to successfull appeal or override their refusal to cover Rxs.


:sluggish::_
 

Avenger

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I seem to keep getting a gastro- illness thats like a stomach flu and causes gastroperesis. So that is the "thing" that keeps happening...once a year, maybe more...that I think in fact gave me much more severe ME in 2018 (twice, within 2 months this happened, near death experiences each time). My theory is: a virus is reactivating, and is trying to possibly kill me.

So air hungar gets real bad when that happens , every time. So I don't have much intestinal action during my gastro problems which are stomach related, somehow.
Yes this is all so difficult and frustrating. I too have battled with this for over 30 years with little success.

I have tried a number of times to restrict carbs, but always end up losing so much weight there is never a benefit.
I recently went 4 months without breads or starches. I lost 12 lbs and became very weak. I went back to eating them and so far have gained back 6 lbs and until a few days ago, was able to walk outside. So for now, carbs are on the menu.

I dug up this organic acid test from a few years ago. I was very sick at the time, but I would imagine these values change quickly.
View attachment 41900

I agree with you that the root lies in the micro biome. I have finally found a primary doctor and a gastrologist that are in agreement on that. I’m not sure how helpful they will be because of the medical establishment, but it’s a step in the right direction. The covid virus is going to leave thousands of people with symptoms like ours, and they are going to be forced to look for answers. I hope we all can find some help soon.
I have a feeling that this is going to be a mixed bag, with some research, but also a major input from Psychiatry, because this is the cheapest method of suppressing what could turn out to be an explosion of law suits, not only against the NHS, but also Governments and Insurance. It is still not in the best interest for these powers to make a relationship between ME/CFS and Covid-19. Lets hope for some honest investment from researchers such as Professor Malcom Hooper, rather that the likes of Simon Wessely who is there only to enforce the Government view (and knighted specifically for suppressing those beliefs).

Please read Professor Malcom Hoopers report for Clinicians and Solicitors and Margaret Williams tireless campaigns on behalf of ME/CFS; https://www.margaretwilliams.me/

The Government and NHS choices for such research will indicate their intent and if Psychiatry, will already have set the final output, that will just need translating into psychobabbic reasoning, which will be as curved as the Pace Trials, with statistical data misinterpreted to fit.


Gastrointestinal Issues are common among ME/CFS; but Psychiatry has used this as a marker for mental health issues! If those Gastrointestinal issues are found to be related to the cause of ME/CFS, it will take away all credibility in Psychology that seems to always be at the disposal of the paymaster.
 

EddieB

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Gastrointestinal Issues are common among ME/CFS; but Psychiatry has used this as a marker for mental health issues!
The last two gastrologists I've seen both prescribed antidepressants. Not for psych reasons (?) but what they called “gut chemical imbalances”. I had a slight success at one point, but horrible failure the rest. Not going through that anymore.

I also believe there’s a lot more people suffering with this disease that the doctors let on. Although somewhat vague in answering my questions, I think they really do know the issue is in the microbiome, But from the establishment standpoint, it’s too costly and time consuming to get involved with, Medications are the quick way to deal with it; if it works, great, if not, too bad, maybe some counseling will help...

If those Gastrointestinal issues are found to be related to the cause of ME/CFS, it will take away all credibility in Psychology
Absolutely. There’s an increasing number of studies showing that antidepressants alter microbiome. That perfectly explains some of the reactions I’ve had from them. They know how antidepressants work, but have no idea why they work. Reality is, they change the microbiome, and the results, good or bad, are through the the gut/brain connection.
 

Pyrrhus

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It’s happened in the past, went to the emergency room, but when they see a normal oxygen test and normal blood pressure, all investigation stops.

I hadn’t had it for a while, but it started up again a few days ago. Any exertion will set it off. I was in the doctors office two days ago, just walking from the car into the office set it off, along with severe fatigue and uncontrollable shaking. Couldn’t get a breath, but the oxygen meter read 100%, blood pressure nearly perfect.
Doctor was baffled.
If anyone is interested, here is one discussion thread about "air hunger":

Treatment for shortness of breath?
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/treatment-for-shortness-of-breath.81325/
 

Avenger

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Yes this is all so difficult and frustrating. I too have battled with this for over 30 years with little success.

I have tried a number of times to restrict carbs, but always end up losing so much weight there is never a benefit.
I recently went 4 months without breads or starches. I lost 12 lbs and became very weak. I went back to eating them and so far have gained back 6 lbs and until a few days ago, was able to walk outside. So for now, carbs are on the menu.

I dug up this organic acid test from a few years ago. I was very sick at the time, but I would imagine these values change quickly.
View attachment 41900

I agree with you that the root lies in the micro biome. I have finally found a primary doctor and a gastrologist that are in agreement on that. I’m not sure how helpful they will be because of the medical establishment, but it’s a step in the right direction. The covid virus is going to leave thousands of people with symptoms like ours, and they are going to be forced to look for answers. I hope we all can find some help soon.
The FODMAP diet may suit you; because it allows Carbohydrates that do not ferment so easily in the small intestine. I also suffer Gastroparesis on a regular basis and issues where I have reflux at night, sometimes choking on food and have had to empty my stomach manually to get back to sleep.

This is complex and may be slightly different for all of us, but those with Gastroparesis; increased fermentation may develop overgrowth of Bacteria or because there is poor motility causing food to stay in the stomach or small intestine too long (Rufous Mckinney). This alone can lead to Bacterial Overgrowth (I have used Resolor for motility and Metaclopromide during bad episodes of Gastroparesis). Motility investigations can show whether you have normal motility. But motility issues can also be a symptom of Bacterial Overgroeth due to Hydrogen and Methane production that increase and decrease motility. Motility alone can be the source of Bacterial Overgrowth and I generally develop Constipation during bad episodes of D-Lactic symptoms.

Different Organic acids produced in Overgrowth may have slightly different effects, but in general become toxic when produced in abnormally high quantity.

''The Organic Acids Test (OAT) provides an accurate metabolic snapshot of what is going on in the body. Besides offering the most complete and accurate evaluation of intestinal yeast and bacteria, it also provides information on important neurotransmitters, nutritional markers, glutathione status, oxalate metabolism, and much more. Patients and physicians report that treating yeast and bacterial abnormalities reduces fatigue, increases alertness and energy, improves sleep, normalizes bowel function, and reduces hyperactivity and abdominal pain.''
 

Avenger

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It does for some of us. Some not. Dr De Meirleir has adviced his patients to try out oxygen concentrators over the years. You’ll find some anecdotal experiences on this forum if you do a search.
I have used an Oxygen Concentrator for many years. I also use Propranolol for tachyarrhythms that develop along with severe fatigue and Oxygen Hunger. When becoming unwell (made worse by any exertion) it feels as though I have climbed a mountain without Oxygen, fatigue, pain and weakness increase exponentially later in the day (post activity) if I try to do anything when ill, but episodes can also just happen or long periods of illness if left untreated.

It has also been suggested that some ME/CFS may be subclinical for D-Lactate; for me low levels of D-Lactate cause me fatigue and feeling Dizzy (light headed) and affects my memory, whereas exacerbation's cause all the above. Symptoms often fluctuate.

Oxygen is given to D-Lactic patients during exacerbation even though their Oxygen level can show nearly normal (in fact most blood investigations will be normal) It is only the Organic Neurotoxin that can be measured and this is rarely if ever performed for anyone with ME/CFS during an episode because the NHS believe fervently and misguidedly that it is all psychological. It is the build up of Co2 that stops the ability to use available Oxygen during acidosis that affects Mitochondrial ability to process and exchange both Oxygen and Glucose leading to extremes of fatigue and air hunger (Dr. Sarah Myhill performed investigations for me showing Mitochondrial dysfunction).

The Spo2 meter is an experiment to see how my Oxygen levels are affected using this simple device through light absorption in blood vessels in the finger, which change when Oxygenated or deoxygenated.

I am ill at the moment, and off all medication to stop my symptoms; and awaiting further investigations for FMT (I am finding this unnerving and wonder how long I can manage to hold out and have already had bouts of drunk like slurred speech and breathing difficulty and been very unwell overnight). I have been told that I would be the first person to have FMT for D-Lactic acidosis, but I had found that an American team may have used this (I am sure that I put the report on one of the threads). It seems logical to use FMT, because it is the most natural Probiotic; but I guess that it may be far more complex than this because there may exist differences in individual microbiomes. But there may be donors that are more ideal to restart and reverse these problems.

In fact I was so unwell yesterday that I forgot to use the Sp02 monitors; my memory was badly affected (I use two Sp02 monitors simultaneously and photograph the results to verify what is happening). I am barely getting over yesterdays exacerbation and have also had flares of severe joint pain. I have already waited 2 weeks to be taken in for investigations and my symptoms are increasing on a daily basis. I am really beginning to think that these investigations are not welcomed by the NHS. It has been a harrowing fight to get this far having to ask for my own investigations and treatments.
 

EddieB

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Sorry you are going through a bad spot, going through one myself.

So to understand, you are saying that there is an excess of organic acids (D lactate) as the result of bacteria imbalances/overgrowth in the intestines, that have spilled over into the bloodstream and body? And this causes the co2 problem?
or me low levels of D-Lactate cause me fatigue and feeling Dizzy
Or a lack of causes it too?
 
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Avenger

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Sorry you are going through a bad spot, going through one myself.

So to understand, you are saying that there is an excess of organic acids (D lactate) as the result of bacteria imbalances/overgrowth in the intestines, that have spilled over into the bloodstream and body? And this causes the co2 problem?

Or a lack of causes it too?
Yes reportedly in the small intestine, but it is possible to generate one or more Bacteria in Overgrowth. Organic acids at higher levels (than normal) increase toxicity and act as a neurotoxin or poison to cause Myalgic Encephalomyelitis symptoms which are similar to D-Lactic acidosis. Co2 builds up in the Blood Stream with D-Lactic acid and also causes Mitochondrial dysfunction and fragmentation. Cells become Oxygen and Glucose starved and energy levels and neurological symptoms fluctuate along with Bacterial toxicity output which is dependent upon Carbohydratres and Sugars fermenting in the small intestine.

D-Lactate can be found in Blood, Spinal Fluids and Urine.

Some Carbohydrates ferment these bye products more easily than others (Bread, Pasta, wheat based Pizza Doughs are the fastest to cause systemic symptoms, but Simple Sugars can act even faster). I put the article below on a few years ago. The research has come from University Based expensive investigations.

Jul-Aug 2009;23(4):621-8.
Increased d-lactic Acid intestinal bacteria in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome
John R Sheedy 1, Richard E H Wettenhall, Denis Scanlon, Paul R Gooley, Donald P Lewis, Neil McGregor, David I Stapleton, Henry L Butt, Kenny L DE Meirleir
Affiliations expand

  • PMID: 19567398
Free article
Abstract
Patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) are affected by symptoms of cognitive dysfunction and neurological impairment, the cause of which has yet to be elucidated. However, these symptoms are strikingly similar to those of patients presented with D-lactic acidosis. A significant increase of Gram positive facultative anaerobic faecal microorganisms in 108 CFS patients as compared to 177 control subjects (p<0.01) is presented in this report. The viable count of D-lactic acid producing Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. in the faecal samples from the CFS group (3.5 x 10(7) cfu/L and 9.8 x 10(7) cfu/L respectively) were significantly higher than those for the control group (5.0 x 10(6) cfu/L and 8.9 x 10(4) cfu/L respectively). Analysis of exometabolic profiles of Enterococcus faecalis and Streptococcus sanguinis, representatives of Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. respectively, by NMR and HPLC showed that these organisms produced significantly more lactic acid (p<0.01) from (13)C-labeled glucose, than the Gram negative Escherichia coli. Further, both E. faecalis and S. sanguinis secrete more D-lactic acid than E. coli. This study suggests a probable link between intestinal colonization of Gram positive facultative anaerobic D-lactic acid bacteria and symptom expressions in a subgroup of patients with CFS. Given the fact that this might explain not only neurocognitive dysfunction in CFS patients but also mitochondrial dysfunction, these findings may have important clinical implications.
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EddieB

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Good information thank you. I see my new gastro tomorrow for a follow up appointment. He was talking about treating for sibo at last visit, I will present this to him, seemed to be open to different approach.

Also having severe mouth and skin sores during flare up, any speculation on what that’s about?
 

EddieB

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Saw the gastro yesterday, he wants me to do a two week course of xifaxan. Not sure about that...

It seems logical to use FMT, because it is the most natural Probiotic; but I guess that it may be far more complex than this because there may exist differences in individual microbiomes. But there may be donors that are more ideal to restart and reverse these problems.
Avenger, please take a look at this interview with Dr Pimintal, read all the way to the end on FT.
 

Avenger

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Saw the gastro yesterday, he wants me to do a two week course of xifaxan. Not sure about that...


Avenger, please take a look at this interview with Dr Pimintal, read all the way to the end on FT.
Saw the gastro yesterday, he wants me to do a two week course of xifaxan. Not sure about that...


Avenger, please take a look at this interview with Dr Pimintal, read all the way to the end on FT.
Hi EddieB,
thank you so much!!!!!!!! super interview, things are really moving on now;
yes there have been some deaths from FMT, but also from Probiotics. We are still in the dark ages as far as the Microbiome is concerned, but this is a start.

I did find something of immense interest in the interview; that of 'Lovastatin', which is being used to reduce Methane in Constipation. This could be of great value to me if I can find out where to procure a trial in the UK (anyone trialed Lovastatin yet)?

I suffer badly from Constipation during exacerbations of D-Lactic symptoms and Methane is known to alter Motility, to slow it down. It is possible that the Bacteria involved (or Archaea etc.) are causing a self perpetuating feedback loop, in which they maintain suitable environments by slowing motility. But it is equally possible to generate both Hydrogen and Methane producing species together; because some Methanogen's live off the Hydrogen produced by other species.

Pimintal has also gone into Methanagen's and Archaea, which was something that I had touched upon in another thread ''ME/CFS for 18 years, but diagnosed with D-Lactic acidosis''.

This is vastly complex and many of the tools that we are using are comparatively the difference between a flint axe and a laser scalpel; we are only at the flint axe stage. The things that we do to our Gut have become environmental issues!

We started by adding Fluoride into our water along with Pesticides and Antibiotics and it is hardly surprising that some of us become ill or have abnormal microbiome.

Fluoride-Induced Alteration in the Diversity and Composition of Bacterial Microbiota in Mice Colon
Biological Trace Element Research volume 196, pages537–544(2020)Cite this article
Abstract
Fluoride, as an environmental toxin, causes damage to intestinal mucosa. It may promote pathogen infection by increasing the intestinal mucosa permeability. In this study, the colonic fecal samples from the control group (C group, 0 mg/L NaF for 60 days) and the fluoride group (F group, 100 mg/L NaF for 60 days) were subjected to high-throughput 16S rRNA sequencing to verify the effects of fluoride on the colonic flora of animals. Results revealed a total of 253 operative taxonomical units (OTUs) in two groups, and 22 unique OTUs occurred in the F group. Fluoride increased the microbiota diversity and species richness of the colon. Concretely, the abundance of the Tenericutes was increased at the level of the phyla in the F group. In addition, in the F group, significant differences at the genus level were observed in Faecalibaculum, Alloprevotella, [Eubacterium]_xylanophilum_group, Prevotellaceae_UCG-001, and Ruminiclostridium_9, compared to the C group. Among them, except for the reduction in Faecalibaculum, the other four bacteria were increased in the F group. In summary, the intestinal microbial composition of mice was reconstituted by the presence of fluoride, and the significantly changing bacteria may partly account for the pathogenesis of fluoride-induced intestinal dysfunction.


The idea that there may be differences in Microbiome's especially gender shows just how complex the Microbiome may be; but then add in signalling between Bacterial Species and our own immune system and huge differences within individual species that are altered every time that we contract a Virus..........Yes there could be Microbiome sub-types or subtle genetic differences (some Gut Bacteria/Organisms may have changed within species due to influences such as Virus). Every Virus will also change the Microbiome after adding its own information permanently to microorganisms within the Gut.

I will still try for FMT and take a chance, but only through a validated donor and all checks being performed first through a fully accredited Hospital. I have very little choice because I am becoming increasingly resistant to antibiotics. I have tried a brand of Probiotics that worked very well at higher dosages, but are out of my reach due to cost. The alternative for me is unthinkable and I guess that many of us have tried different chemical and alternative medicines, and each of these may have potential side effects.

If you are unwell you are generally poor and Probiotics do not work for all of us. We may be a mixed bag of slightly different abnormal Microbiome's, but many with ME/CFS having Fatigue and overlapping problems.
 
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