Pulse oximeter to measure oxygenation during d-lactic acidosis, air hunger, hyperventilation

Avenger

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I am interested in a possible simple signature that may be useful for some of us that have breathing difficulty or hyperventilation when unwell; and ask whether any of you have used a SpO2 Pulse Oximeter when you are unwell? These monitors are now cheap and accessible and very accurate. They only give an indication of Oxygenation, but I have found my own SpO2 to be low during D-Lactic episodes.

The University of Tokyo has a similar non invasive method of detecting Lactic levels that could possibly be used to detect D-Lactic levels in ME/CFS;

Association between venous blood lactate levels and differences in quantitative capillary refill time Yasufumi Oi,1,2 Kosuke Sato,1,2 Ayako Nogaki,1,2 Mafumi Shinohara,1,2 Jun Matsumoto,1,2 Takeru Abe,2,3 and Naoto Morimura2,4 1 Emergency Care Department, Yokohama City University Hospital, 2 Department of Emergency medicine, Yokohama City University School of Medicine, 3 Advanced Critical Care and Emergency Center, Yokohama City University Medical Center, Yokohama, and 4 Department of Acute Medicine, Graduate School of Medicine, The University of Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan

Aim: Capillary refill time has been widely adopted for clinical assessment of the circulatory status of patients in emergency settings. We previously introduced quantitative capillary refill time and found a positive association between longer quantitative capillary refill time and higher lactate levels in the intensive care units, but not in the emergency department. In this study, we aimed to identify a quantitative and clinically applicable index of circulatory status (DAb) that can be measured with quantitative capillary refill time, then evaluated the linear association between this index and lactate levels in the emergency department.
CONCLUSION, IN this study, we introduced DAb, as assessed through Q-CRT, as an index of lactate levels to overcome the shortcomings of Q-CRT. We show that DAb is a feasible, non-invasive, and rapid assessment of lactate levels in emergency primary care settings. Future multicenter studies with a longitudinal design are needed to verify our findings.


There is no point in having Blood Gas or D-Lactic investigations unless you are very unwell; having breathing difficulty or hyperventilating (hyperventilation is the natural way that we cope with D-Lactate/raised Co2 and acidosis). The symptoms can fluctuate wildly; D-Lactic tests may not be accurate and the chances of most ME patients being given a D-Lactic or Blood Gas is close to 0.

I have just started using a cheap but accurate SpO2 Pulse Oximeter; and I can show drops in SpO2 when unwell. I was wondering if anyone else has used this when ill or during bad episodes of illness. It may be a way of proving that we are unwell and a way of monitoring illness. It would be easy to take photographs of the results with date and time to show how this is affecting you; and any relationship to Gut symptoms that you are experiencing.

I wanted to ask how many of us are aware of breathing difficulty when very unwell and how many suffer Hyperventilation?

After many years of breathing difficulty due to undiagnosed D-Lactic acidosis; I am very angry especially when I see that Simon Wessely has ''established the lack of relationship between hyperventilation and CFS'' and misguided ideology that ''he would not endlessly investigate for ineffective causes, using the analogy of a hit-and-run accident in which finding out the manufacturer or number plate of the car that hits you doesn't assist the doctor in trying to mend the injury, repeating that we are "in the business of rehabilitation" . You cannot rehabilitate acidosis, mitochondrial dysfunction or hyperventilation due to acidosis; these are not dysfunctional beliefs. You cannot establish a lack of relationship between hyperventilation and CFS; when you just have not found the relationship because you lack the necessary understanding of complex Gut issues that have only recently come to light as the tip of an iceberg. This thinking is beyond dysfunctional!

We need a signature for ME/CFS that is accurate, easy to access and dependable. It would be interesting to find out how many of us can measure a SpO2 drop when most unwell or hyperventilating.


D-Lactic Acidosis: More Prevalent Than We Think?
med.virginia.edu › 2014/06 › Parrish-September-15


PDF
by R CASE · ‎2015 · ‎Cited by 4 · ‎Related articles
''A normal anion gap does not therefore definitively exclude D-lactic acidosis''.
 
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I am interested in a possible simple signature that may be useful for some of us that have breathing difficulty or hyperventilation when unwell; and ask whether any of you have used a SpO2 Pulse Oximeter when you are unwell?
I get seriously intense air hungar symptoms when I get ill with like the flu, or recently gastroperesis. When I am well, I show high oxygen in my blood. But thats not telling us if that oxygen is reaching the muscles and tissues (its not, in my opinion).

I do not know if my oxygen levels change when I am run down. I need to figure this out. I managed to get it to lightenup after the first 36 hours. A Vicodin helped, but I can't be taking that all the time.
 

Avenger

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YES. I was literally gasping for air...taking bit deep gulps...yet your starving for it.

So I'm ordering a meter....not breathing is - scary.
I also had the same symptoms of air hunger while breathing normally.

I was literally suffocating during the worst episodes. This suffocation is literally invisible to Doctors because it is the build up of Co2 in acidosis that is the real problem, then secondary failure of Pyruvate Metabolism resulting in Mitochondrial dysfunction increasing Oxidative stress. The SpO2 monitors were never available in the early years when I would Hyperventilate in front of Doctors who were not trained to recognize this form of acidosis, which was unthinkable and was passed of as Somatization. Even after a Seizure in Hospital this was still put down to Somatization. There were at least 4 requests for me to have Blood Gasses during an episode, but never performed when I attended Hospital. Fortunately for me the episodes did not kill me and were self limiting, even though they repeated again and again and could last for long periods; and this has had a real effect on my mental health, because the systemic symptoms were disturbing, but just dismissed.

Mitochondrial fragmentation can be due to oxidative stress; Organic acids such as D-Lactate can have a direct effect on mitochondrial dysfunction and fragmentation. I was diagnosed with Mitochondrial Dysfunction many years before D-Lactic acidosis.

D-Lactate altered mitochondrial energy production in rat brain ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc › articles › PMC3292964


by B Ling · ‎2012 · ‎Cited by 52 · ‎Related articles
1 Feb 2012 — Interestingly, the clinical symptoms due to high levels of D-lactate (D-lactic acidosis) are similar to inherited or acquired abnormalities of pyruvate metabolism [11]. Therefore, D-lactate may directly or indirectly interfere pyruvate metabolism pathways, which are essential for mitochondrial energy production [12].
Introduction · ‎Materials and methods · ‎Results · ‎Discussion

FEBS J2011 Apr;278(6):941-54.
doi: 10.1111/j.1742-4658.2011.08010.x. Epub 2011 Feb 3.
Mitochondrial oxidative stress causes mitochondrial fragmentation via differential modulation of mitochondrial fission-fusion proteins
Shengnan Wu 1, Feifan Zhou, Zhenzhen Zhang, Da Xing

''We conclude that mitochondrial oxidative stress mediated through Drp1 and Mfn2 causes an imbalance in mitochondrial fission-fusion, resulting in mitochondrial fragmentation, which contributes to mitochondrial and cell dysfunction. ''

We are very fortunate to have the help from Prusty's research. The more signatures that we can find to demonstrate these problems the better.
 

Avenger

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Perhaps there might be some benefit to gain from doing remote ischemic preconditioning too?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22843115/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772854/

ME/CFS and Covid-19 long haul probably due to Viral changes within the Microbiome (Virus can enhance some species of Bacteria and advantage them to kill other species) Virus need to find host Bacteria or die and the Gut is a main target;

Hi kangaSue,
I thought that you might all like this report from Lassesen's site, sent to me by Samer B;

New post on CFS Remission


Long Haul Covid – Welcome to the ME/CFS world!
by lassesen
Long haul COVID is sometime referred to as Post-Virus Syndrome. I prefer the more general, Post-Infection Syndrome. Most people with a CFS/ME diagnosis fall under that classification and causation.
Forget about Disability etc
A few people may get it, those with positive test results for something wrong, for example a SPECT scan of the brain. In general, long haul covid show no atypical results from standard medical tests. This has been the situation for ME/CFS for decades. Some people may get it granted for up to one year... and then will get turned down on renewal.
How will the insurance company respond?
From ME/CFS experience, it will be suggested that it is either psychosomatic, or work-phobic , or someone using it as an excuse not to work, or psychologically crippled from COVID stress. There is nothing wrong with the patient according to medical tests. Hence, it is psychological or attitude. Benefit denied.
Probable Cause ... microbiome dysfunction
Microbiome dysfunction, even when shown, would be viewed as an experimental or research diagnosis and thus, not applicable for disability. This gets much worst because almost no physician knows now to effectively deal with a microbiome dysfunction apart from a Fecal Matter Transplant (which may require multiple attempts using different donors -- they still have not figured out compatibility and compensation vectors for FMT). FMT in the US is restricted to a very small number of conditions, and long haul covid is unlikely to be included for decades.
Technically, sufficient information appears to be available on PubMed (National Library of Medicine). It is not consolidated into a cookbook formula but spread across over 3000 separate articles. Clinical MDs do not have time to consume this, and applying it would be contrary to existing standards of care. Their supervisors will veto it (been there, seen that!)
Bottom Line
The cure for Long Haul Covid is likely the same cure as ME/CFS. From existing studies, we know that a percentage will spontaneous recover every 6 months, with the percentage decreasing over time. Some will never recover. A few will, like ME/CFS. continue to get worst.

lassesen | March 2, 2021 at 3:11 pm | Categories: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome | URL: https://wp.me/p2Sdu4-b2b

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EddieB

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YES. I was literally gasping for air...taking bit deep gulps...yet your starving for it.

So I'm ordering a meter....not breathing is - scary.
YES. I’ve got this very thing going on right now.

It’s happened in the past, went to the emergency room, but when they see a normal oxygen test and normal blood pressure, all investigation stops.

I hadn’t had it for a while, but it started up again a few days ago. Any exertion will set it off. I was in the doctors office two days ago, just walking from the car into the office set it off, along with severe fatigue and uncontrollable shaking. Couldn’t get a breath, but the oxygen meter read 100%, blood pressure nearly perfect.
Doctor was baffled.

I’ve also been having headache, restless leg, and ear pressure/ popping. I am suspicious of iron deficiency and how it may fit into this. From what I’m reading, low iron in the brain will cause the heart to pump harder to compensate, I had blood drawn yesterday for a full panel, but doubtful it will show anything.
 
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had blood drawn yesterday for a full panel, but doubtful it will show anything.
I pretend that if I get blood drawn, some fresh new batch will get made and I will miraculously: feel better!

It’s happened in the past, went to the emergency room, but when they see a normal oxygen test and normal blood pressure, all investigation stops.
Maddening, isn't it? I have consist impressive oxygen readings using that device. So its not telling us anything ab out oxygen reaching tissues. Is it?

I did notice that when I was a big mess, I sacrified one of my stockpiled Vicodin (very very hard to obtain) and while I was on the Vicodin, the air hungar stopped. I noticed it quite dramatically.

My lungs aren't the greatest. Air hungar comes with the feeling that I have an anvil on the my chest. But literally I have no congestion. Its: like that elephant, sitting on you, in the TV commercial. So that is a very common ME flare/crash symptom for me: the heavy chest feeling, breathing- tough.
 

EddieB

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Hello there Rufous,
This suffocation is literally invisible to Doctors because it is the build up of Co2 in acidosis that is the real problem, then secondary failure of Pyruvate Metabolism resulting in Mitochondrial dysfunction increasing Oxidative stress.
Forgot to ask my question 😳
Is there anything to test/check for here, it was mentioned a meter to measure something? And if so, would the results matter?

I did see a pulmonary specialist a few years ago to investigate this and my elephant/chest symptoms.
I had collapsed a lung many years prior, and thought sure it was some permanent damage. He told me that there was no evidence that anything had ever happened and the lungs were in great shape. Figures.

I pretend that if I get blood drawn, some fresh new batch will get made and I will miraculously: feel better!
Yeh, me too, keep hoping that something will turn up that’s been missed. Never does. I know there’s something screwy with my iron, two hematologists couldn’t figure out. Probably has someone to do with mitochondria and conversion.

I think I’ve asked you, have you had iron levels checked?

I don’t have Vicodin, I have piles of Xanax, wonder if it would help? I try and stay away from it, too hard to stop,
 
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I don’t have Vicodin, I have piles of Xanax, wonder if it would help?
I have plenty of Xanax it seems, too. I was taking just a small 1/2 of a 0.5 mgs....to help me sleep. Basically, it was contributing to me not doing the 2 or 3 am wake up and the List thing. It also prevents a 3 am IBS thing I would get anytime I had to go out the next day (thank you for this special blessing!).

I take them in daytime very very rarely. (usually just a bit of one).

I'm a bit agorophobic, I think it was caused by "all this". I get- nervous- if I'm going out. I'll start pacing. My BP will go up. If its to go to the dentist- that will continue until I might be scaling the walls. But mostly I'm ok.

So now I don't take them hardly ever. Which is generally good.

My iron was OK when it got checked a while back, but I do have several more tests to do that got postponed due to COVID, and now its like: when am I going to do these tests? (I'm not yet vaccinated). I don't get alot of tests.

Now I'm in trouble with my doctor, because I've gained weight. I was looking like a famine victim there. So my daughter came and food supplies got maintained. I might have put on 15 pounds.

My doctor is rather obsessed on: be skinny. So he is going to- get on my case I suspect. EGAD! My doctor is a cardio obsesssed guy, had his own mild heart attack. Hence: He lost 60 pounds or so.
 

EddieB

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I was taking just a small 1/2 of a 0.5 mgs....to help me sleep.
Yeh, I did that a couple years ago. Was going ok till I tried to stop it, couldn’t sleep at all. So I’ve held off on taking anymore on an ongoing basis.

Gosh we’re a lot alike. Since getting totally off antiDs having trouble staying asleep. 2-3am wake up. Wondering if the lack of sleep is adding to the headache/ air thing?

I am very suspicious about iron tests. These symptoms, out of breath, fatigue, restless leg, waking up, etc,etc.
All listed under iron deficiency, yet we test normal. Well, sort of normal. I have a new primary doctor that’s even suspicious, my C reactive and sediment rate are “too perfect” in her opinion. Like you said, just because it’s there doesn’t mean it getting used.

And I say keep your 15 lbs, people who aren’t sick don’t know how hard it is keep weight on when you can’t eat right. Or you can send it to me, I could use it 🍗
 

Avenger

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YES. I’ve got this very thing going on right now.

It’s happened in the past, went to the emergency room, but when they see a normal oxygen test and normal blood pressure, all investigation stops.

I hadn’t had it for a while, but it started up again a few days ago. Any exertion will set it off. I was in the doctors office two days ago, just walking from the car into the office set it off, along with severe fatigue and uncontrollable shaking. Couldn’t get a breath, but the oxygen meter read 100%, blood pressure nearly perfect.
Doctor was baffled.

I’ve also been having headache, restless leg, and ear pressure/ popping. I am suspicious of iron deficiency and how it may fit into this. From what I’m reading, low iron in the brain will cause the heart to pump harder to compensate, I had blood drawn yesterday for a full panel, but doubtful it will show anything.

Hi, yes exactly as was happening to me (my ME was later diagnosed as D-Lactic acidosis). It was as if I was starving for air, but Doctors could not understand why. I had fast heartbeats and big banging ectopics at times. The more ill I was the worse the ectopic beats. I also get bad headaches, and shaking at times but only when ill. This was always worse after activity. I am guessing that activity and D-Lactic symptoms must have coincided at times, so that activity made me more unwell.

I had a seizure during one of the worst episodes. During a few of the worst episodes, it could feel like going into shock. Do you get any abdominal pain, bloating, reflux or dizziness (light headed)?

With D-Lactic acidosis Oxygen can be normal, but it is Co2 that builds up increasing blood acidity as acidosis. Oxygen has often been normal with many patients suffering from D-Lactic acidosis. A number of similar Organic acids can cause similar problems and systemic poisoning as the Organic acids increase beyond ability to detoxify and excrete. D-Lactic acid can decrease kidney function and the ability to excrete D-Lactate.

This is one reason that those of us with D-Lactic acidosis will be more vulnerable to Covid-19, because D-Lactate affects many organs including Kidneys, Mitochondrial function (causing abnormal fatigue) and Breathing difficulty as well as brain and heart function.

Breathing difficulty can look like Hyperventilation as in a panic attack. But I have never panicked or had a panic attack. If Oxygen hunger is bad, Hyperventilation takes place to correct the acid base problem. It is a natural phenomenon during acidosis and nothing to do with your mental state, but that is how Doctors understand Hyperventilation in ME/CFS.

I am not absolutely certain about the SpO2 monitor yet; I purchased two monitors to make sure that the readings were accurate. It has so far captured my breathing difficulty; that is why I asked if anyone else had used an SpO2 with positive results during breathing difficulty.
 
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I am not absolutely certain about the SpO2 monitor yet; I purchased two monitors to make sure that the readings were accurate. It has so far captured my breathing difficulty; that is why I asked if anyone else had used an SpO2 with positive results during breathing difficulty.
So your saying you show lower oxygen readings during the lactic acidosis events?

(I think your also saying its possible to have a good oxygen reading, yet have CO2 building up seperately, resulting in the air hungar feeling).

I have it just slightly with normal ME. Air hungar worsens tremendously during acute episodes of being more ill, or ill with something else.

So then I wonder if having more oxygen (could I get actual oxygen)...would make any difference?
 
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Do you get any abdominal pain, bloating, reflux or dizziness (light headed)?
I seem to keep getting a gastro- illness thats like a stomach flu and causes gastroperesis. So that is the "thing" that keeps happening...once a year, maybe more...that I think in fact gave me much more severe ME in 2018 (twice, within 2 months this happened, near death experiences each time). My theory is: a virus is reactivating, and is trying to possibly kill me.

So air hungar gets real bad when that happens , every time. So I don't have much intestinal action during my gastro problems which are stomach related, somehow.
 

Avena

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So then I wonder if having more oxygen (could I get actual oxygen)...would make any difference?
It does for some of us. Some not. Dr De Meirleir has adviced his patients to try out oxygen concentrators over the years. You’ll find some anecdotal experiences on this forum if you do a search.
 

Avena

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One thing that really helps my air hunger during PEM/lactic acid is vasodilation. My oxymeter do actually go drastically _down_ immediately after taking it. Then goes back to the same as it was before.