Psychedelics and Immunomodulation: Novel Approaches and Therapeutic Opportunities

[Hip]

Great posts, @manna, very interesting and informative.

I did Ayahuasca and successfully broke through on about a dozen occasions. Often I would think "that's it I'm healed" only for it to return a few days later.

This again I find extremely interesting: the fact that ME/CFS symptoms can disappear for a few days after taking ayahuasca.

If the same effect could be obtained from some non-psychedelic drug which mimicked the relevant biochemical actions of DMT, and that non-psychedelic drug could be taken every day without tolerance build-up, then you would have a highly effective ME/CFS treatment, that would make all your ME/CFS symptoms disappear.

Of course, it may be that all the benefits of DMT for ME/CFS come from agonism of the very same receptors that produce a psychedelic effect, and in which case, it might be hard to separate the beneficial effects for ME/CFS from the psychedelic effects.

Would you say that your ME/CFS symptoms completely disappeared in these few days after ayahuasca, or was more like you were 80% or 90% in remission in those few days?

I felt the affect of psychadelics was largely on my Central Nervous System (which is everywhere yes?) and bringing more electricity, if that's the right word, into it.

Do you mean it felt like the nerves in your body, your hands, arms, legs, etc, were tingling, or sort of more sensitive to tactile sensation? (I noticed that the virus which triggered my ME/CFS also seemed to permanently reduce the tactile sensitivity of the skin of my entire body).

By the way, the central nervous system (CNS) is the brain and spine; the nerves issuing from the brain and spine and running into the body are the peripheral nervous system.

On psylocibin, I did find this helpful some of the time but also it unfortunately induced 2 psychotic breaks. Apparently this is fairly common with succeptible people. I would advise caution with it. Microdosing is probably the way to go and supposedly not more than once every 4-5 days.

Duly noted.

Caapi leaf is quite a nice relaxing and safe way to get a slight psychadelic lift.

As I guess many here know, Banisteriopsis caapi (ayahuasca) contains beta-carbolines (specifically harmine, harmaline and tetrahydroharmine) which are MAO inhibitors. In the ayahuasca brew, Banisteriopsis caapi is mixed with a DMT-containing plant like Psychotria viridis (chacruna), and these MAO inhibitors prevent the DMT from being destroyed in the stomach by a stomach enzyme called monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A), which is found in the lining of the stomach. That is why orally taken Psychotria viridis has no psychedelic effects on its own, until mixed with Banisteriopsis caapi. More about ayahuasca biochemistry here.

But as well as being MAO inhibitors, the harmine, harmaline and tetrahydroharmine found in Banisteriopsis caapi also have their own psychedelic effects.

When I read some stories of ayahuasca temporarily putting all ME/CFS symptoms into remission, it occurred to me that it might be the harmine, harmaline or tetrahydroharmine in the ayahuasca brew, rather than the DMT, which is responsible (or partly responsible) for the benefits that ayahuasca has for ME/CFS.

You also get harmine, harmaline and tetrahydroharmine in Syrian rue seeds, so I decided to try some of these seeds, to see what effect they might have on my ME/CFS symptoms.

For a psychedelic trip, the dose of Syrian rue seeds is around 3 to 6 grams (ref: here). So I started with microdoses of 50 mg of Syrian rue seeds. This was fine (though no benefits observed), but when I worked up to a 200 mg dose, it started to make me feel mentally uneasy with very mild psychosis feelings, so I thought it would be best to drop my Syrian rue seed experiments.

I read that there are differences between Syrian rue seeds and Banisteriopsis caapi though: Syrian rue seeds has mostly harmaline, a bit of harmine and very little tetrahydroharmine. Banisteriopsis caapi has mostly harmine, and some harmaline and tetrahydroharmine.

Incidentally, in rats, harmaline increases the level of soluble guanylate cyclase, the only known nitric oxide receptor. So harmaline I think might have an effect equivalent to increasing nitric oxide levels.

Harmaline in large doses though is neurotoxic to Purkinje cells in the brain.

Note that it is essential to observe tyramine dietary restrictions before taking Syrian Rue seeds or Banisteriopsis caapi, at least in high doses.

In the UK it is currently legal to buy but not to brew. By April it will be illegal to buy as well.

I take it that it's the DMT-containing plants like Psychotria viridis that will be banned from sale, rather than Banisteriopsis caapi, which contains no DMT.

this sort of spiritual healing that occurs during Ayahuasca can have the most proifound affects and results as you are left to see your situation in a much clearer light. Longterm chronic illness can bring you down in ways that you're so used to that you don't really notice as being other than normality.

That is one aspect of ayahuasca / DMT that does interest me, the potential for a sort of spiritual purification and general raising of consciousness. I found the ME/CFS really reduced my spiritual and religious sensibilities (due to some biochemical factor in the brain, I believe)

Though I doubt if I would pluck up the courage to do a full ayahuasca / DMT session, given my fear of bring back the mild psychosis symptoms I had a few years ago.

Do you think a series of ayahuasca / DMT microdoses, say one taken every week for many months, would have the same spiritual benefits. Or is there no substitute for the full trip?

 

[manna]

This again I find extremely interesting: the fact that ME/CFS symptoms can disappear for a few days after taking ayahuasca.

If the same effect could be obtained from some non-psychedelic drug which mimicked the relevant biochemical actions of DMT, and that non-psychedelic drug could be taken every day without tolerance build-up, then you would have a highly effective ME/CFS treatment, that would make all your ME/CFS symptoms disappear.

Of course, it may be that all the benefits of DMT for ME/CFS come from agonism of the very same receptors that produce a psychedelic effect, and in which case, it might be hard to separate the beneficial effects for ME/CFS from the psychedelic effects.

I think the benefits derive in many ways but I would say that ultimately the energy is love in an actual energetic healing form. As mushy as it sounds. 2 "experiences" can be vastly different. So long as you're in the right place with the right preparation it has the ability to take care of the rest. Because then it's only ever stuff leaving you not coming in. So although that's kind of painful as you have to comprehend a thing to be able to be let it go. It's always equally releasing though. You get a clear view on all your actions from a point of superconsciousness, understanding and seeing all the causative factors.

One strange thing that often happens is entering into what the Santo Daime call the Miracao...I think it roughly translates as "living in a the miracle state". It's a state of mind of oneness that is like a controlled explosion going off in the centre of your mind. Like being in the central calm of a tornado. Entering this state for a short period is another kind of healing one might expect.

Some people talk of soul retrievals as another form of healing. The spiritual funeral and bells another. I have heard of the three, i don't know what to call them, subtle energy doctors who are experts with straightening the human energy field. Each one of them takes one of three different energy bodys around you and cleanses them

Would you say that your ME/CFS symptoms completely disappeared in these few days after ayahuasca, or was more like you were 80% or 90% in remission in those few days?

For me it was less than a day really. I have heard other people say longer so mentioned it, I think. In retrospect I would say that I never actually changed that much physically overnight. It can take 3-5 days to work into your body afterwards, Usual to feel very emotional for a few hours a few days afterwards. The release for me was spiritual more than physical. It wiped the pain recording slate clean. Erased remembered suffering.

Do you mean it felt like the nerves in your body, your hands, arms, legs, etc, were tingling, or sort of more sensitive to tactile sensation? (I noticed that the virus which triggered my ME/CFS also seemed to permanently reduce the tactile sensitivity of the skin of my entire body).

i have heard it put a better way. The inventor of the Pulsors I use speaks of the rapid strengthening of the CNS, which can happen in a "physical* awakening" maybe, is likened to the feeling of oil being pressed out of a seed. I have felt like I was raining inside because my CNS had rung my nerves out with fire and this had evaporated the damp and water retention in my nerves, which is inflammation.

I believe it may have something to do with the brain and spinal chord and fluid becoming an aerial for what some might call, higher dimensional force. Often it's felt most intensely around the head and neck as it feels like something is squeezing you from the inside. It can be quite uncomfortable, like being pressed by a mangler a little bit. But it doesn't feel harming. Sometimes you think it's harming you but then you realise after a few moments, which can seem like ages so you suffer it more, it's some harm inside coming out and so more obvious to you. It is the spiritual connection that heals I think. you have to have one of the kinds of healings I've spoken of soul, soul retrieval, spiritual funeral etc to get the healings they give. If you think you can get what you need out of it w/o that then no point going the whole way.

By the way, the central nervous system (CNS) is the brain and spine; the nerves issuing from the brain and spine and running into the body are the peripheral nervous system.

I've wondered if the power or voltage etc of the CNS could be measured. Perhaps folks with M.E./CFS would have a measurably lower reading? My guess is that it would be ambiguous too and the under 25% group should have a stronger CNS.

I take it that it's the DMT-containing plants like Psychotria viridis that will be banned from sale, rather than Banisteriopsis caapi, which contains no DMT.

My guess is that it'll all be stopped, the ones mentioned that is.

That is one aspect of ayahuasca / DMT that does interest me, the potential for a sort of spiritual purification and general raising of consciousness. I found the ME/CFS really reduced my spiritual and religious sensibilities (due to some biochemical factor in the brain, I believe)

Though I doubt if I would pluck up the courage to do a full ayahuasca / DMT session, given my fear of bring back the mild psychosis symptoms I had a few years ago.

W/o wanting to remove caution, my experience is that ayahuasca works from the top of the head and so involves an opening of the gland above your mental centre. It is from the mental centre that psychosis can occur. Most psychedelics operate on this centre. One reason ayahuasca is more powerfull is because it operates from a higher gland that is not often used. Take this with a pinch of salt. Also supposedly the pineal is decalcified. This occurs, I believe, when you enter states like "the miracao" lol? Probanly few people in their life get the chance to revamp their pineal in one night.

Do you think a series of ayahuasca / DMT microdoses, say one taken every week for many months, would have the same spiritual benefits. Or is there no substitute for the full trip?

I believe you can heal w/o Ayahuasca so really don't think it's necessary at all. It's difficult to answer whether or not the full trip is necessary to get the spiritual benefits. It's really for the individual to answer.

 

[Hip]

I think the benefits derive in many ways but I would say that ultimately the energy is love in an actual energetic healing form.

Psychedelics like MDMA seem to be helpful in cases of PTSD, which has a major psychological component (see the studies by MAPS.org). Here the emotional effects at the level of mind (perhaps especially the feeling of love that MDMA is known to induce) may well be responsible for the healing of mind and brain.

However, my guess is that the temporary benefit that ayahuasca / DMT has for ME/CFS does not occur at the mental level of emotions, but rather at the biochemical level in the body or brain.

And it should be pointed out that if we assume the benefits of ayahuasca / DMT for ME/CFS do come from the emotional level of mind, then that is very close to adopting the much maligned Wessely school view of ME/CFS, which posits that ME/CFS is an "all in the mind" condition caused by psychological factors, not a disease caused by physiological factors. I don't think anyone on this forum subscribes to the Wessely school view.

It is interesting to note, though, that the love hormone oxytocin itself may be having some biochemical effects that improve ME/CFS (and in fact Dr Jay Goldstein found that one-fifth of his ME/CFS patients improved cognitively when given oxytocin injections). But then — and this is a subtle point — it may not be the emotion of love in the mind that improves ME/CFS, but the biochemical effect in the body or brain of the love hormone oxytocin.

DMT releases oxytocin via DMT's action on the 5-HT2A receptor in the hypothalamus, so that could well explain the feeling of love experienced during a DMT trip.

I tried oxytocin 30 IU subcutaneous injections myself, but it did not improve my ME/CFS symptoms, and also oxytocin unfortunately did not make me feel awashed with the feeling of love, which would have been nice.

Also supposedly the pineal is decalcified. This occurs, I believe, when you enter states like "the miracao" lol? Probanly few people in their life get the chance to revamp their pineal in one night.

This idea that pineal gland calcification is responsible for the loss of spiritual sensibilities or loss of higher consciousness is found all over the Internet.

Yet there does not seem to be any evidence for this story. Evidence would be relatively easy to come by, since pineal calcification shows up on a skull X-ray. If the claim is that pineal gland calcification causes loss of spiritual sensibilities, let's compare the skull X-rays of a group of non-spiritual people to a group of spiritual people, and see if the latter have less calcification. (Though my guess is that the major factors separating the spiritual from the non-spiritual will be genetic, as polymorphisms in various genes have been correlated to the self-transcendence personality trait).

Without evidence, I consider theses claims unsubstantiated. Though I have to admit it would be interesting to see a study investigating whether pineal gland calcification, which is found in up to 70% of adults, does affect brain function, the mind, or one's spiritual disposition in some way.

This study found that the degree of pineal gland calcification does correlate with a reduced output of melatonin from the pineal. So this suggests that pineal gland calcification could also reduce the amount of DMT secreted by the pineal (assuming DMT is secreted by the human pineal gland).

Note: it was only in 2013 that a study found for the first time the presence of DMT in the pineal gland (of a rat).

 

[Hip]

I'd just like to focus more on what I mentioned in a post above, which is that DMT's activation of the 5-HT2A receptor in gut tissues produces potent anti-inflammatory effects.

Recall that Michael VanElzakker has postulated that the symptoms of ME/CFS may be explained by the sickness behavior response, which is triggered when the vagus nerve senses infection or inflammation in the body tissues. Sickness behavior symptoms are pretty similar to ME/CFS symptoms.

Since Dr Chia has found ME/CFS patients have enterovirus infections in their gut tissues, many of the symptoms of ME/CFS could conceivably result from the vagus nerve sensing this infection and inflammation in the gut, and then signaling to the brain to instigate sickness behavior.

But if DMT's activation of the 5-HT2A receptor in the gut tissues potently decreases gut inflammation, this might significantly reduce sickness behavior, which would mean ME/CFS symptoms would be much reduced, if this sickness behavior theory of ME/CFS is correct.


This study, which examined the effects of 5-HT2A receptor activation in smooth muscle cells found that:

Activation of 5-HT2A receptors represents a novel, and extraordinarily potent, potential therapeutic avenue for the treatment of disorders involving TNF-alpha-mediated inflammation.

You rarely see words like "extraordinarily potent" use in a scientific paper, so when scientists say "extraordinarily potent", that really means the effects are indeed extraordinarily potent.

Now note that that the inflammatory cytokine TNF-alpha, along with the inflammatory cytokine IL-1-beta, are the two main inflammatory cytokines that trigger sickness behavior. So since this study found that activation of 5-HT2A receptors caused an extraordinarily potent reduction of TNF-alpha-mediated inflammation, this I think in turn would translate into an extraordinarily potent reduction of sickness behavior, and potentially an extraordinarily potent reduction of ME/CFS symptoms.


It would be easy enough in principle to test this theory that DMT's action on stomach 5-HT2A receptors is providing a major beneficial effect in ME/CFS: all you would have to do is find another 5-HT2A agonist drug that does not pass through the blood-brain barrier (and so cannot affect the brain), and take this drug orally.

It is interesting that cannabidiol (CBD), a relatively non-psychoactive compound in Cannabis, is a partial agonist of the 5-HT2A receptor (which generally means it is weaker than a full agonist). When I was experimenting with CBD oil (see this thread), I took CBD oil sublingually; but for ME/CFS purposes, it might be better to take CBD orally, so that it activates the 5-HT2A receptors in the gut and thereby produces this extremely potent anti-inflammatory effect in the gut.

 

[manna]

Psychedelics like MDMA seem to be helpful in cases of PTSD, which has a major psychological component (see the studies by MAPS.org). Here the emotional effects at the level of mind (perhaps especially the feeling of love that MDMA is known to induce) may well be responsible for the healing of mind and brain.

I wouldn't put MDMA in a "heaqling" category. It may help separate someone from a cause of shock but it does this by inducing/forcing the brain to operate at a higher level than maybe it's naturally able to. Overuse of MDMA, or even just once, can lead to problems of depression. It's not that the brain is being healed that, imo, causes a person to feel better for taking it. Most likely they get a "comedown". also I'm not sure that PTSD is always predominantly psychological. It's possible that PTSD in war veterans was mored likely in those who reacted physically to all the vaccines they're give, possible that their anxiety is a result of induced bowel disease or problems.

However, my guess is that the temporary benefit that ayahuasca / DMT has for ME/CFS does not occur at the mental level of emotions, but rather at the biochemical level in the body or brain.

I'm not sure you can separate the emotions, body and mind. Point is is that no-ones suggesting that the mental problems are not firstly physical in origin but they are still mental in expression, as well. I suppose this may depend on how you view the differences and connections between physical, emotional and mental. It could be suggested that possibly the removal of energetic blocks in the auric field around the head makes one feel much better mentally. The cause of those blocks can still be deemed as physical in origin but the temporary reduction of them can come, ino, from the outside first as opposed to coming from within. The affects will appear in all systems at the same time. Cause and point of healing, from outside or inside, does not really matter on Aya. during normal life though healing mostly comes from the physical approaches ime.

DMT is not normal everyday of course. You will have gotten into negative mindsets even if they are physical in origin. These can be broken during DMT as it appears to override the physical cause, if that makes sense? Difficult to see this all from a perspective that doesn't involve auras, energy centres and subtler "etheric" energies as they seem so inherent in the healing. W/o airing them you're restricted to describing it from purely a bio-physical angle. That's all well and good unless it's not possible to understand from that angle alone. Physical evidence and monitoring of subtler energies is not currently possible so cannot be proven or discussed. For that all you have are perhaps common experience reporting.

And it should be pointed out that if we assume the benefits of ayahuasca / DMT for ME/CFS do come from the emotional level of mind, then that is very close to adopting the much maligned Wessely school view of ME/CFS, which posits that ME/CFS is an "all in the mind" condition caused by psychological factors, not a disease caused by physiological factors. I don't think anyone on this forum subscribes to the Wessely school view.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that M.E./CFS is psychological. I don't think anyone would deny that M.E./CFS has affected their mental and emotional, in addition to physical, wellbeing. So we do have emotional and psychological problems though I believe they are ultimately caused by physical poor health. Many of the meridians that are involved in digestion run into the head. Hence a poor gall bladder function affects the mind because the meridian passes over the head but the cause is physical. That said if, in one night, the energetic principles of the gall bladder meridian are improved then there willl be a release of physical, emotional and psychological symptoms. The healing affect can I think come from outside, i.e. the auric field, as well as from inside, i.e. the CNS. To assume one angle of approach, the bio-chemical, denies any affect that might occur from the outside first.

It is interesting to note, though, that the love hormone oxytocin itself may be having some biochemical effects that improve ME/CFS (and in fact Dr Jay Goldstein found that one-fifth of his ME/CFS patients improved cognitively when given oxytocin injections). But then — and this is a subtle point — it may not be the emotion of love in the mind that improves ME/CFS, but the biochemical effect in the body or brain of the love hormone oxytocin.

DMT releases oxytocin via DMT's action on the 5-HT2A receptor in the hypothalamus, so that could well explain the feeling of love experienced during a DMT trip.

I tried oxytocin 30 IU subcutaneous injections myself, but it did not improve my ME/CFS symptoms, and also oxytocin unfortunately did not make me feel awashed with the feeling of love, which would have been nice.

Does DMT itself initiate the release of oxytocin or is it as a byproduct of some kind of an energetic balance or harmony created by subtler energies beyond the bio-physical being affected? Taking oxycotin on it's own cannot, I don't think, be compared to any release of it occuring during the taking of DMT. For starters you're taking a specific amount that assumes to initiate a physical reaction with every milligram. During DMT I would guess the amount of release would be within what the body can make and release so no posibbility of taking too much or what is not beneficial even. The body knows better how much it can synthesize

This idea that pineal gland calcification is responsible for the loss of spiritual sensibilities or loss of higher consciousness is found all over the Internet.

Well I did say, "supposedly". Indicating that it's not my claim. What would seem/feel accurate to me is that the pineal function is improved during the experience, in a harmonious and natural way, that continues after the experience. Whether that's from decalcification or otherwise, it doesn't really matter i don't think. There's still much speculation as to exactly how DMT affects the pineal and the rest of the body, proof being quite tricky to ascertain during the experience I imagine. Is the calcificatioon a result of lower energy in the pineal or is lower operation of the pineal a result of calcification first?

Yet there does not seem to be any evidence for this story. Evidence would be relatively easy to come by, since pineal calcification shows up on a skull X-ray. If the claim is that pineal gland calcification causes loss of spiritual sensibilities, let's compare the skull X-rays of a group of non-spiritual people to a group of spiritual people, and see if the latter have less calcification. (Though my guess is that the major factors separating the spiritual from the non-spiritual will be genetic, as polymorphisms in various genes have been correlated to the self-transcendence personality trait).

Without evidence, I consider theses claims unsubstantiated. Though I have to admit it would be interesting to see a study investigating whether pineal gland calcification, which is found in up to 70% of adults, does affect brain function, the mind, or one's spiritual disposition in some way.

My feeling is that ultimately, pineal gland operation is improved following the experience. How long for, whether permanent or temporary, would depend on daily health practises and level of physical health.

This study found that the degree of pineal gland calcification does correlate with a reduced output of melatonin from the pineal. So this suggests that pineal gland calcification could also reduce the amount of DMT secreted by the pineal (assuming DMT is secreted by the human pineal gland).

So the amount of calcification is important? Does DMT get rid of it? Where there is calcification one assumes this restricts the flow of energy in some way. During a DMT experience it could be said that the flow of energy through the pineal, be that measurable or not, is greatly increased. It would be interesting to see if decalcification actually occurs. I would say that ime pineal gland operation is improved.

 

[manna]

I'd just like to focus more on what I mentioned in a post above, which is that DMT's activation of the 5-HT2A receptor in gut tissues produces potent anti-inflammatory effects.

I think it's important to have some distinction between cause and affect, as far as DMT is conceerned. Saying DMT reduces inflammation is not strictly true. As you know, if you take DMT on it's own, orally, for the most it'll do nothing. The DMT in acacia is said by some not to need an MAOI to be active though a similar process is suspected. Smoking it is so fast that inhibitors don't get chance to inactuvate it before it reaches the brain. Essentially then it's DMT's affect on the body and potentially the pineal that has a knock on affect elsewhere which includes anti-inflammatory.

Reducing DMT to bio-physical actions only leads to describing processes, whilst not understanding the mechanisms. For instance lets say that activation of the pineal gland leads to an increased functioining of it on a subtle energy/auric level. This having the affect of higher energies be able to condense and be passed into the body through the fact that the bio-magnetic power or resonance of any possible "energetic" centre associated with the head: the brow chakra of eastern healing practises. This could then, from where I'm sat, increase biomagnetism/lifeforce in the organism leading to measurably higher voltage in the CNS which affects all bodily systems including for instance 5-HT2A receptors. In the absence of any scientific explanation or understanding, I see no harm in suggesting "higher" processes that cannot be proven. Either or, DMT alone is not responsible for decreasing inflammation.

I would suspect that the test subjects, from whom the data for "potent anti-inflammatory" was derived all had an "experience". Clearly just imbibing DMT alone is not sufficient to give an anti-inflammatory affect so it must be a subsequent action of taking it and my guess is that that involves energies that are not measurable with scientific equipment. Can any healing affects, like anti-inflammation be separated from the actual experience? I don't think so and it would appear that the "trip" is necessary. I doubt any of the test subjects who did not breakthrough showed any anti-inflammation affects. The fact that imbibing DMT alone is not sufficient to initiate anti-inflammatory responses indicates, I think, that the trip is relevant to the results quoted. The trip is not so readily comprehended from a western scientific perspective.

Do you not think that ascertaining whether or not the test subjects "tripped" is relevant when contemplating any conclusions to be drawn from their data? If they all did trip and we know that DMT is not responsible on it's own for any anti-inflammatory affects then it would seem pertinent to include the "trip" as relevant to the findings. Taking results that involve tripping and not taking that as a pertinent point could be missing the salient altogether. How can you draw a purely bio-physical conclusion from results that seem to come from beyond that paradigm alone?

 

[ScottTriGuy]

It would be easy enough in principle to test this theory that DMT's action on stomach 5-HT2A receptors is providing a major beneficial effect in ME/CFS: all you would have to do is find another 5-HT2A agonist drug that does not pass through the blood-brain barrier (and so cannot affect the brain), and take this drug orally.

It is interesting that cannabidiol (CBD), a relatively non-psychoactive compound in Cannabis, is a partial agonist of the 5-HT2A receptor (which generally means it is weaker than a full agonist).

@Hip

Do you mean that some of the 5-HT2A agonists (full or partial) may pass through the BBB, and some may not?

I believe the ARV Efavirenz crosses the BBB, so theoretically it would not be helpful in this construct?

 

[douglasmich]

Hello. Did anyone try micro dose psilocybin?

I used DMT a while ago. Its far too intense for us. I had an adrenal crash after and was bed ridden.

However i did experiment with microdose DMT (5mg) smoked right before meditation and it put me into a monk like state. For over a week after it destroyed my anxiety and depression. The breakthrough DMT trip i had was terrifying and bizare and too intense for a fragile low GABBA low cortisol fellow.

I am interested in psyilocybin. I wouldnt be able to tolerate a high dose but i was thinking a microdose for health and mood benefits/

Seems to be scattered anecdotes all over the web about microdosing. Im not looking to get high im looking for a therapeutic dosage that could help my health and mood

 

[Hip]

I'm not sure that PTSD is always predominantly psychological.

There definitely seem to be physical factors involved too; having ADHD seems to predispose to developing PTSD. But there is a major psychological component, so it seems the mind as well as the brain is involved.

Point is is that no-ones suggesting that the mental problems are not firstly physical in origin but they are still mental in expression, as well.

If the problem in ME/CFS is a physical one in the brain and body, then certainly there may be mental repercussion and mental symptoms appearing; but if the underlying problem is physical, I think you are probably going to need to fix it at the physical level of the brain and body, not at the mental level of the mind.

It could be suggested that possibly the removal of energetic blocks in the auric field around the head makes one feel much better mentally.

Once you start talking about "auric fields", it ceases to be a scientific discussion. Don't get me wrong, I had a major interest in concepts and ideas from spiritual literature, so conceptually I know exactly what you are talking about.

But once you start bringing in non-scientific concepts as a means to explain biological effects, it's an invitation to basically say whatever you like. You can make it up as you going along, and there is no way to check the truth or honesty of what is being said. You may as well be talking about choirs of angels being responsible for the biological effects of DMT.

In science, you can propose theories, but fortunately there is a touchstone of truth in science, which is called empirical validation / observation: ie, you test your theories in the physical world, and if the theories are shown to be wrong, then you need to dump them. That keeps science honest, at least in principle.

But in the world of mind and spirituality, unfortunately there is no touchstone of truth (or at least nobody seems to have found one); there is nothing to test your spiritual concepts and theories against. Which is why in spirituality you can say almost anything you like, and nobody can prove otherwise.

Now I am not against these spiritual descriptions or concepts at all. They try to capture or express what is subjectively experienced during spiritual practices, whether those are drug-induced practices, or techniques such as meditation (which I am much more familiar with).

But when these spiritual descriptions or concepts are used to explain biological effects, that's when things go downhill, because there is no known way to test the validity of the statements. You can say any old mumbo-jumbo; you can say that power of DMT to heal comes from its molecular structure tuning into the thought waves of transcendental beings living on the star of Sirius, and nobody can prove otherwise.


When I used to do a lot of meditation (years ago before I got ME/CFS), it used feel as it my mind had reached a place beyond science, logic and the physical world. And that's a wonderful feeling. But when you come back down to Earth, you are back in the physical world, and so you need to abide by its physical laws.

Does DMT itself initiate the release of oxytocin or is it as a byproduct of some kind of an energetic balance or harmony created by subtler energies beyond the bio-physical being affected?

It is very likely that the feeling of love you can experience during a DMT trip is more than just oxytocin release; it is likely due to the combination of lots of effects that DMT has on various receptors in the brain; but once you start talking about "subtler energies beyond the bio-physical", it is no longer a scientific discussion, if these things cannot be measured.

I think it's important to have some distinction between cause and affect, as far as DMT is conceerned. Saying DMT reduces inflammation is not strictly true. As you know, if you take DMT on it's own, orally, for the most it'll do nothing.

Sure, but we are assuming you have taken an MAO inhibitor that prevents DMT being broken down in the stomach. In any case, if you smoke DMT, it gets into you system without being destroyed by stomach enzymes.

The study I quoted earlier found that agonism of the 5-HT2A receptors in aortic smooth muscle cells produced an extraordinarily potent reduction in TNF-alpha-mediated inflammation.

DMT just happens to be an 5-HT2A receptor agonist, so this may be a possible avenue of exploration when we try to figured out how DMT is having its temporary beneficial effects for ME/CFS.

Reducing DMT to bio-physical actions only leads to describing processes, whilst not understanding the mechanisms. For instance lets say that activation of the pineal gland leads to an increased functioining of it on a subtle energy/auric level. This having the affect of higher energies be able to condense and be passed into the body through the fact that the bio-magnetic power or resonance of any possible "energetic" centre associated with the head: the brow chakra of eastern healing practises. This could then, from where I'm sat, increase biomagnetism/lifeforce in the organism leading to measurably higher voltage in the CNS which affects all bodily systems including for instance 5-HT2A receptors. In the absence of any scientific explanation or understanding, I see no harm in suggesting "higher" processes that cannot be proven. Either or, DMT alone is not responsible for decreasing inflammation.

That's really just pseudoscience. Pseudoscience is where you take precisely defined and measured concepts from science, and string them together into sentences, often with various other non-scientific vague ideas and notions, in a way that sounds scientific.

When I used to practice meditation, yoga and chi gong, I used to find these kind of spiritual descriptions beneficial, because they would help put you in the mood, help you focus on the right things, and help you tune into your body and mind, promoting aware of subtle sensations. So suggestive concepts like "chakras" or "subtle energy" softly spoken by your yoga teacher may help with your practice, and help create a spiritual state of mind. And when you are in that state of mind, these concepts do seem to resonate with you (and I would not entirely rule out that there may be some reality to them).

But these concepts are not the sort of thing you can use in a scientific cause and effect explanation, and should not really be interwoven with regular scientific concepts, otherwise it comes across as pseudoscience.

How can you draw a purely bio-physical conclusion from results that seem to come from beyond that paradigm alone?

Because if we assume the benefits of ayahuasca / DMT for ME/CFS are due to some mysterious aura or subtle energy that cannot be measured, it gets us nowhere, and stops scientific investigation. It would be like following the traditional approach in countries like India have, where if you have fatal road accident, people will often ascribe the cause to God's will. Having ascribed the cause to a force from above, it ends all material investigations into the cause of the crash, such as shoddy roads and badly maintained cars.

 

[Hip]

Do you mean that some of the 5-HT2A agonists (full or partial) may pass through the BBB, and some may not?

I believe the ARV Efavirenz crosses the BBB, so theoretically it would not be helpful in this construct?

I was saying that by its action on the 5-HT2A receptors in the gut, DMT might be exerting a potent anti-inflammatory effect, and this in turn might be reducing ME/CFS symptoms, if we assume a sickness behavior model of ME/CFS.

So to test this idea, if we had a 5-HT2A agonist that did not cross the BBB, and this 5-HT2A agonist still produced benefits for ME/CFS, then it would suggest that these benefits come from the action of DMT's 5-HT2A agonism in the body, not in the brain.

But when I looked online, it seems that all the current 5-HT2A agonists we have at our disposal do cross the BBB.


But at this stage we don't even know if DMT's 5-HT2A agonism (in the body or the brain) is involved at all in creating DMT's temporary alleviation of ME/CFS symptoms.

 

[Owl42]

I am 51 now, but first developed medical problems at the age of 33, when I was hit with severe generalized anxiety disorder and IBS, the anxiety being severe enough to destroy my career, and many other aspects of my life. ME/CFS only appeared 5 years after that, triggered by a respiratory virus. In some ways, I feel I am still at the age of 33, because that was the last time I had any proper engagement in life. Lots of things happened in my life up until that age of 33, but from then on, I hardly did anything memorable.

This is exactly how I feel but I started at age 18 and I feel like I can't get to be an adult or get real responsabilities or self-image in my life. It's frustrating.

It is the spiritual connection that heals I think. you have to have one of the kinds of healings I've spoken of soul, soul retrieval, spiritual funeral etc to get the healings they give.

I've experienced ego death from shrooms and with my DMT uses I've never reached that state. My first recovery experience from DMT wasn't even from a psychedelic experience, I didn't even use 5mg, I was testing the substance's effect on me. My experiences with vaped DMT have never been more intense than shrooms (or salvia, salvia is fucking insane) and I've experienced great recovery from them that I never felt (at least not that clearly) from any other experience that for sure changed my visions and emotions on reality and myself.

I used DMT a while ago. Its far too intense for us. I had an adrenal crash after and was bed ridden.

Yeah, I've experienced something similar. I've been having little "panic attacks(?)" or anxiety episodes that lead to high heart rate and exhaustion. At first I got scared but they tested me and found nothing, doctors think it's a bad reaction to migraine or something like that, relating it to my CFS condition.

Anyway, now I've seen nothing comes with it and I end recovering hours later I start to see it as something positive. I haven't experienced fear in years, I've told that to my family and friends several times. My adrenaline hasn't been tested tho.

I feel like I'm having it back, some adrenaline. Maybe it's too much for my system right now, but I'm handling it and I think it's making me livelier.

Maybe your DMT experience was too intense. I've got improvement from "non-active" (for the tripping matter) doses, it lasted less but was great.

Maybe I'll test the shrooms microdosing next, in some time. They are active for me from 0,5g but in total darkness and get me really happy, not intense, mostly visuals, some fast thoughts and great tactile sensations.

So to test this idea, if we had a 5-HT2A agonist that did not cross the BBB, and this 5-HT2A agonist still produced benefits for ME/CFS, then it would suggest that these benefits come from the action of DMT's 5-HT2A agonism in the body, not in the brain.

Would DMT be active in the gut without crossing the BBB if we take it orally, or would it just be destroyed by MAO before doing any effect?

 

[douglasmich]

A microdose of dmt makes me feel the love of the universe. But since i developed MCS i react terribly to car fumes and smoke. So i guess i can't vape dmt anymore

 

[Hip]

Would DMT be active in the gut without crossing the BBB if we take it orally, or would it just be destroyed by MAO before doing any effect?

After reading this study, I realized that the 5-HT2A receptors of the gut are located in the small intestine, not the stomach (or at least I could not find any literature stating that 5-HT2A is in the stomach).

DMT taken orally (without an MAO inhibitor) will be destroyed by the MAO-A enzyme in the gut, and probably before it even reaches these 5-HT2A receptors in the small intestine.

 

[Hip]

Oddly enough my doctor agreed to Rx me pentazocine today at my annual physical. So I have a script. Now I'm just too frightened to try it.

I would suggest when you feel ready to try it, start with a very small dose, perhaps ⅛ of a tablet (cut with a sharp knife). Then if there are no problems, a day or two later you may want to increase the dose to a ¼ tablet.

Regarding hallucinations: I had an interesting experience with the Chinese herb He Shou Wu. This herb is known to very occasionally cause hallucinations as a side effect. A few years ago, when I was more ill and mentally frail with ME/CFS than I am now, I decided to take some He Shou Wu.

He Shou Wu did not cause me to have full scale hallucinations, but it seemed to make my brain visually misinterpret certain things in a way that was akin to a hallucination. For example, as I was walking down the street, the wind caught the scarf of a person walking towards me, and so the scarp sort of flapped upwards around her head.

But my brain misinterpreted that, and saw the flapping scarf as a pair of birds wings flapping on either side of her head. Now this was only a momentary thing, because within a second or two my brain self-corrected its visual interpretation, and realized it was a flapping scarf. But this kind of experience (which only occurred when I took He Shou Wu) made me aware of how hallucinations might occur in the brain; they may start with a simple visual misinterpretation. Now that my ME/CFS has improved a bit, I no longer get this side effect from He Shou Wu.

 

[cigana]

After reading this study, I realized that the 5-HT2A receptors of the gut are located in the small intestine, not the stomach (or at least I could not find any literature stating that 5-HT2A is in the stomach).

DMT taken orally (without an MAO inhibitor) will be destroyed by the MAO-A enzyme in the gut, and probably before it even reaches these 5-HT2A receptors in the small intestine.

Enteric coated DMT?

 

[Hip]

Enteric coated DMT?

I think the MAO-A enzyme that destroys DMT is found throughout the gastrointestinal tract, so an enteric coated DMT pill probably would not work.

Incidentally, I read that DMT is mainly destroyed by MAO-A, but also to a lesser degree by MAO-B; so both these MAO enzymes which are present in the gastrointestinal tract will destroy DMT.

However, the study that I quoted earlier mentioned something interesting:

our results indicate that agonism of 5-HT2A receptors is a novel approach to developing small-molecule based therapeutics for inflammatory diseases that involve TNF-α, especially for those of the vasculature and gut such as atherosclerosis and inflammatory bowel disease.

Importantly, levels of drug needed to produce these beneficial effects are predicted to be up to orders of magnitude less than what are necessary to induce unwanted behavioral intoxication, and other physiological effects known to be influenced by 5-HT2A receptor activity like vasoconstriction in the vasculature and gut function.

So it seems that the intestinal anti-inflammatory effects of 5-HT2A agonists like DMT appear at dose levels far below the dose level required to get psychedelic effects.

So for example if you were to take an MAO inhibitor like Banisteriopsis caapi, and then take very low doses of DMT (say from the Psychotria viridis plant), just below the threshold of a psychedelic trip, I think it would still exert a potent anti-inflammatory effect in the intestines, even at this very low dose.


So taking a very weak ayahuasca brew in this way, with doses of DMT just below the threshold for a psychedelic trip, might be another may to test whether it is the anti-inflammatory effects of DMT in the intestines, or the effects of DMT in the brain that are responsible for the amelioration of ME/CFS symptoms that DMT temporarily causes. Although if DMT also has anti-inflammatory effects in the brain (see below), then this test would not be valid.

Note that even though it will not be psychedelic, this very weak ayahuasca brew is probably not something you can take daily, due to the tyramine dietary restrictions required when taking MAO inhibitors like Psychotria viridis.



The other interesting thing about 5-HT2A receptors is that they are also found on astrocytes in the brain. Now when coxsackievirus B (a virus strongly linked to ME/CFS) infects the brain, it infects astrocytes (refs: 1, 2), and also neural progenitor cells. So I have often thought that much of the brain inflammation in ME/CFS may simply derive from coxsackievirus B-infected astrocytes.

Now if activation of the 5-HT2A receptors on astrocytes also results in the same extraordinarily potent anti-inflammatory effect that is seen when activating 5-HT2A receptors on smooth muscles cells, then 5-HT2A receptor agonism may be a particularly effective way of quelling ME/CFS neuroinflammation deriving from astrocytes. So this (highly speculative) anti-neuroinflammation mechanism of DMT might offer another explanation of why DMT temporarily seems to dramatically improve ME/CFS symptoms.

And if, as in the intestines, very low doses of DMT, below the threshold of a psychedelic trip, still have potent anti-inflammatory effects on these astrocytes, then perhaps taking very low dose DMT daily (by vaping/smoking) could still have anti-neuroinflammation benefits for ME/CFS.

 

[manna]

There definitely seem to be physical factors involved too; having ADHD seems to predispose to developing PTSD. But there is a major psychological component, so it seems the mind as well as the brain is involved.

ADHD and bowel disease are, on average, most likely synonomous. I believe 95% of people with autism present with bowel disease. I think we come from different angles in general. For me it's relevant that many "digestive" meridians pass over, around and up into the head. This connects them to the brain and would, I think, show how digestive upset translates into anxiety. Not forgetting that poor digestion also means poor utilisation of food to be synthesized into any number of brain hormones. Of course there's PTSD and there's PTSD. No 2 are alike. If the reason for trauma is significantly emotionally and psychologically frightening, w/o any medical involvement that can, imo, cause bowel disease and concomittent anxiety etc, then it's most likely the PTSD has a predominant psychological component etc.

Maybe interesting, I read the other day that The Guiness Book of World Records currently has a Jewish death camp survivor as being b6he oldest living person. Remaining scientific for the moment and the attrocity of it all aside, is there a reason for this? Obviously as far as a psychological component of PTSD goes, you wouldn't think you could hit the meter any higher, yet they went on to live a very long life. I personally think that alot of it is to do with the weight loss. As awful as it is, one thing you might get from the physical experience of weight loss is a rebooting of the digestive organs, in particular the small and large intestines.

Henry Lindlhar, well known 20th century Naturopath, known for his rigorous scientific approach, found that, from 20 years of treating 50,000 patients in his private hospital, for patients with chronic illness there was weightloss prior to improvement.

My general feeling is that all problems, be them physical, emotional or psychological can be helped mostly by physical approach therapies. A small child does not stay unhappy or distressed as long as an adult does. They are quick to forget because, in part, they are physically healthier than adults.

If the problem in ME/CFS is a physical one in the brain and body, then certainly there may be mental repercussion and mental symptoms appearing; but if the underlying problem is physical, I think you are probably going to need to fix it at the physical level of the brain and body, not at the mental level of the mind.

I couldn't agree more. i might use CBT "stop, stop, stop" method are preventing negative thinking but I'm under no belief that this is anymore than a short term cover up job. If I want lasting resukts then I will have to put my gut right, remove inflammation in organs etc etc. I do believe that you can reduce an allergic reaction via NLP but only insignificantly and you'll get further by removing the food(s) so long as a healthy diet is still maintained.

Once you start talking about "auric fields", it ceases to be a scientific discussion. Don't get me wrong, I had a major interest in concepts and ideas from spiritual literature, so conceptually I know exactly what you are talking about.

But once you start bringing in non-scientific concepts as a means to explain biological effects, it's an invitation to basically say whatever you like. You can make it up as you going along, and there is no way to check the truth or honesty of what is being said. You may as well be talking about choirs of angels being responsible for the biological effects of DMT.

In science, you can propose theories, but fortunately there is a touchstone of truth in science, which is called empirical validation / observation: ie, you test your theories in the physical world, and if the theories are shown to be wrong, then you need to dump them. That keeps science honest, at least in principle.

But in the world of mind and spirituality, unfortunately there is no touchstone of truth (or at least nobody seems to have found one); there is nothing to test your spiritual concepts and theories against. Which is why in spirituality you can say almost anything you like, and nobody can prove otherwise.

Now I am not against these spiritual descriptions or concepts at all. They try to capture or express what is subjectively experienced during spiritual practices, whether those are drug-induced practices, or techniques such as meditation (which I am much more familiar with).

But when these spiritual descriptions or concepts are used to explain biological effects, that's when things go downhill, because there is no known way to test the validity of the statements. You can say any old mumbo-jumbo; you can say that power of DMT to heal comes from its molecular structure tuning into the thought waves of transcendental beings living on the star of Sirius, and nobody can prove otherwise.

I would hope that the explanation I gave regarding how DMT may actually work is about as non out there as you could get. It's most likely that the affects of DMT will not be understood from a bio-physical level. I don't personally think it's scientific to disregard the common experiences of people taking DMT. These common experiences may not be scientifically validated from the outside but I think they still have scientific relevance due to commonality. Strassman's test subjects all reported similar "abduction like scenarios" and being operated on by alien type beings.

The feeling that energy is coming into your CNS via say an opening up and boost to the biomagnetic charge/force of an energy centre associated with your brow may, to the user, be more real and palpable than physical reality itself. In the normal state you would not deny the table is there and likewise, perhaps, in the superconscious state, you might not deny what appears more real than what is in everyday reality. I think you can listen to enough folk who've tried it and distinguish the commonalities and feel that they're probably relevant. This would also make them not subjective: at least not all of them because they are commonly experienced. For me this makes the experiences scientifically relevant. I see no problem in anecdotal reporting being taken seriously and being regarded as scientific.

If people are reporting concepts that have no commonality then you might feel it relevant to disregard them or at least, pigeon hole them as not common so not helpfull.

Really science being a touchstone is a nice idea but in practise it's ripe for bending and twisting. Maybe only by being unscientific but still, it happens alot. How many drugs have been deemed safe via double blind placebo testing (supposedly a scientific gold standard) only to be found to be deadly?

It is very likely that the feeling of love you can experience during a DMT trip is more than just oxytocin release; it is likely due to the combination of lots of effects that DMT has on various receptors in the brain; but once you start talking about "subtler energies beyond the bio-physical", it is no longer a scientific discussion, if these things cannot be measured.

It is also possible that this feeling of love also comes from outside of the body. Just because science cannot measure that which is beyond the physical, if there even is anything, doesn't mean experiential and anecdotal "evidence" of it should be denied. Is it even scientific, in the broader sense, to deny them? What if the bio-physical alone cannot explain DMT and it's affects?

Deriving drugs to mimic what herbs do is of course what alot of modern medicine is based on. Usually, as you know, they take what the scientist deems is the "active" ingredient and then they synthesize it. Most herbalists would say that the sum is worth more than the part so that synthesizing an "active" ingredient automatically takes the approach, and hence affect, out of balance. It presumes to illicit a specific response, via dosage, from the body. If DMT increases CNS activity and hence "helps" everywhere at once, as ried to say or imply, then all resultant affects are harmonious with each other because all systems are responding within their capability to do so....rather than a presumed forced dosage response. Which the body most likely cannot use as it's too specfic an approach as oppsed to being general and all encompassing.

I've read "Supernature" by Dr. Lyal Watson and in that he uses laws of chance and indepth statistics to find out for instance, if lawyers actually are born under Leo (thats a made up connection for arguments sake). He found according to laws of chance from statistics of folk born under Leo, at about 100-1 against, they were (ignore specific data like 100-1 as from memory) lawyers. Is that scientific? It is using measuring...maybe not a meter but meters aren't the only tool in the box.

Sure, but we are assuming you have taken an MAO inhibitor that prevents DMT being broken down in the stomach. In any case, if you smoke DMT, it gets into you system without being destroyed by stomach enzymes.

The study I quoted earlier found that agonism of the 5-HT2A receptors in aortic smooth muscle cells produced an extraordinarily potent reduction in TNF-alpha-mediated inflammation.

DMT just happens to be an 5-HT2A receptor agonist, so this may be a possible avenue of exploration when we try to figured out how DMT is having its temporary beneficial effects for ME/CFS.

Still, the point I'm making is that I don't think you can separate any significant healing affects from having various "spiritual" experiences. If you're gonna subtract conclusions from test subject data then surely everything that occurred, which includes extrasensory and spiritual experiences, is relevant? Slight improvements via microdsoing that occur w/o an "experience" is another thing really.

That's really just pseudoscience. Pseudoscience is where you take precisely defined and measured concepts from science, and string them together into sentences, often with various other non-scientific vague ideas and notions, in a way that sounds scientific.

When I used to practice meditation, yoga and chi gong, I used to find these kind of spiritual descriptions beneficial, because they would help put you in the mood, help you focus on the right things, and help you tune into your body and mind, promoting aware of subtle sensations. So suggestive concepts like "chakras" or "subtle energy" softly spoken by your yoga teacher may help with your practice, and help create a spiritual state of mind. And when you are in that state of mind, these concepts do seem to resonate with you (and I would not entirely rule out that there may be some reality to them).

But these concepts are not the sort of thing you can use in a scientific cause and effect explanation, and should not really be interwoven with regular scientific concepts, otherwise it comes across as pseudoscience.

Can these "concepts" not be used in a scientific cause and affect relationship even if they occur in a high number of anecdotal reports? Do we deny commonality? I realise that words like "chakras" aren't acceptable to many. I would say energy centres. Magnetism is invisible energy and I feel there is a similar energy in bio-physical organisms.

Interesting that even in western medicine you have connections to these concepts. The word "spine" is similar to the word "spininng" and chakras are said to be "spinning energy centres". The solar plexus in eastern healing is yellow, associated with the sun and fire. It spins in a clockwise manner, supposedly. This can be seen by stomach acid being acidic, or positively charged. The navel centre spins negatively and so should be an alkaline environment with alkaline secretions from the pancreas. The colon goes through 3 energy centres, the base, the navel and the solar pklexus. It supposed to be mildly acidic and you have 2 positive(acidic) centres and one negative (alkaline) that make it so. I can see correlations and proofs that to me come from what I would call scienntific evaluation.

Because if we assume the benefits of ayahuasca / DMT for ME/CFS are due to some mysterious aura or subtle energy that cannot be measured, it gets us nowhere, and stops scientific investigation. It would be like following the traditional approach in countries like India have, where if you have fatal road accident, people will often ascribe the cause to God's will. Having ascribed the cause to a force from above, it ends all material investigations into the cause of the crash, such as shoddy roads and badly maintained cars.

Is it scientific to deny the possibilty that it's affects come from more subtler realms? Just because they cannot be measured by voltmeters doesn't mean they don't exist, which you do say but... Again if anecdotal is not considered as evidence then could the enquiry still be deemed scientific? To me it's unscientific to disregard them. The affects coming from subtler realms would most likely not be called an assumption by someone who is experiencing them as more real than normal reality.


The god analogy doesn't work because no-ones saying the fatal crash was caused by god because they had a direct experience of it as being such but are relying on a belief that that's what happens. During Ayahuasca experiences people are seeing these realities regardless of upbringing, belief systems or cultural leanings.

 

[manna]

I've experienced ego death from shrooms and with my DMT uses I've never reached that state. My first recovery experience from DMT wasn't even from a psychedelic experience, I didn't even use 5mg, I was testing the substance's effect on me. My experiences with vaped DMT have never been more intense than shrooms (or salvia, salvia is fucking insane) and I've experienced great recovery from them that I never felt (at least not that clearly) from any other experience that for sure changed my visions and emotions on reality and myself.

Thankfully I'd say that you've kept your doses low. Vaping DMT is known to be potentially mind blowing in the extreme. One longterm respected member of DMTNexus claimed that a woman he'd done it with has not come back and is a shadow of her former self. I can't remember the exact numbers but I think once you start going over 50 mcg vaped then things get alot more messy, or good, very quickly. A clear distinction should be drawn between vaping pure DMT and drinking Ayahuasca.

I did try a very small dose, probably similar to yours and did not have a psychedelic experience but also felt it still...like a heaviness on the body. It was similar to the feeling I spoke of before regarding being "squeezed" from the inside except that was on a full DMT experience (drinking), only this time much less so. I would agree that microdosing would help a little w/o needing to resort to a full experience but you must have felt something when you smoked it and the healing received would be equivalent to that feeling I think.

 

[manna]

Hello. Did anyone try micro dose psilocybin?

I used DMT a while ago. Its far too intense for us. I had an adrenal crash after and was bed ridden.

However i did experiment with microdose DMT (5mg) smoked right before meditation and it put me into a monk like state. For over a week after it destroyed my anxiety and depression. The breakthrough DMT trip i had was terrifying and bizare and too intense for a fragile low GABBA low cortisol fellow.

I am interested in psyilocybin. I wouldnt be able to tolerate a high dose but i was thinking a microdose for health and mood benefits/

Seems to be scattered anecdotes all over the web about microdosing. Im not looking to get high im looking for a therapeutic dosage that could help my health and mood

I might try caapi leaves for a light experience. About 5-6 grams brewed. A great mood enhancer but not more than once every 5 days.

It's important when reporting on DMT use to be specific about how any breakthrough occurred. Was it vaped pure DMT, Banisteriopsis Caapi with Chacruna, Caapi with Chaliplonga, Caapi with Mimosa etc etc. The only safe combo in my opinion, especially for M.E./CFS, is Caapi/Chacruna brewed as a drink. Sure, vaping microdoses of DMT is likely OK but be very careful. Even vaped it's pretty harsh stuff no? I got a titch on my lip and it burnt a fair bit. Still, saying "too much for us" is a blanket statement that is most likely incorrect when weighing up the many different ways of imbibing DMT. In the right setting, with the right ingredients, the right preparation (food and pharma avoidances), taken as a drink of caapi/chacruna, imo, it's impossible for it to be "too much".

I don't think I could physically handle a vaped DMT breakthrough in my weakened state but drinking a brew is a different kettle of fish altogether.

 

[manna]

From the anecdotal reports I've seen, use of psychedelics has brought rapid improvement/recovery, so that suggests to me there is not enough time for viral clearance...I think it's more likely the effect is from immunomodulation.

During the experience there is often what is called "the purge", which is an intense episode of projectile vomitting, to put it lightly. It feels like even your big toe is vomitting. It is said by some that this purge is so deep as to instantly remove any parasites, yeasts and viral fragments from the whole bowel, including the small intestine. This together with the emptying of the bowel via the normal way. IME that alone stands as huge "reboot" to your digestion and removes stress from the mind.

The affects of what I would call revamped CNS continue for about 3-5 days post experience. This in regards to drinking not smoking. Viral clearance would continue in this time.

What if, being full of viruses, yeasts and microbes in general, one feels "low" and that an experinece of "higher, purer energy" (higher CNS voltage) erases that feeling...for a few days until their presence (viral, fungal, microbial) is again "kindled" into the body and brain etc.

I suppose it could be said that as you cannot reach the lymph so readily and quickly then viral fragments etc will survive beyond the experience.