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CBD OIL... Anyone tried it? It's legal now.

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Zensational, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Zensational

    Zensational

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    If you saw the documentary WEED, you probably know about the little girl who had been having seizures from birth. Out of desperation her patents tried her on Cannibis, a strain high in CBD and low in THC. Amazingly her seizures were greatly reduced in frequency and severity.
    Appatently as a result of that show and probably other pressures CBD oil is now legal. It is very expensive and I have been researching growers and makers of the oil.
    I was wondering if anyone has tried it and if so what were the results.
    There are some weak versions available on the internet, but I suspect you need to high potency to make a difference.
     
    Wayne and Tristen like this.
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Whether cannabidiol (CBD), a non-psychoactive cannabinoid from the cannabis plant, might have benefits for ME/CFS is debatable.

    THC shift the immune response from Th1 towards Th2 (ref: here), and this is not good for ME/CFS (in ME/CFS you want to shift the immune response towards away from Th2 and towards Th1). CBD may also shift the immune response towards Th2 (ref: here).

    However, CBD is a potent anti-psychotic (ref: here) with an excellent safety profile, and so may be useful for ME/CFS patients or generalized anxiety disorder patients that sometimes experience some psychosis-type symptoms.

    (Ironically, THC, the psychoactive compound in the cannabis plant, has potent psychosis-inducing effects, but when THC and CBD is are taken together when cannabis is smoked, the anti-psychosis effects of CBD seem to cancel out the pro-psychosis effects of THC. This may explain why smoking "skunk" cannabis plants that are bred for high THC and low CBD is occasionally associated with precipitating psychosis.)

    Cannabidiol (CBD) has anti-cancer effects, especially for breast cancer.


    You can buy pure CBD oil, which has no psychoactive effects at all, completely legally here:

    Dew Drops Hemp Oil Supplement - Dixie Botanicals Hemp Oil Supplements


    You can also buy a specially bred cannabis plant seed called Avidekel, which produces a cannabis plant with very high CBD, and minimal THC:

    New CBD-Rich Strain ‘Avidekel’, Sets New Medicinal Standards with 15.8% CBD & 1% THC

    But these Avidekel seeds are very expensive at $320:

    Avidekel high cbd marijuana seeds - $320.00
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
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  3. Zensational

    Zensational

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    Thanks for that info. My thinking was that if the CBD oil can prevent or lessen the severity of seizures then it might have a calming effect on the nervous system, and since most of us have extremely sensitive nervous systems, it might be something to use before bedtime. I really can grow it because where I live it's illegal, although it is going to be on the ballot for medical use soon.
    Guess I'll have to try it out and see.
     
  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @Zensational

    Well, Dr Paul Cheney has suggested that ME/CFS patients may have a shift in the brain towards seizure, due to over sensitive neurons, and he thinks this shift in the direction of seizure explains the "wired but tired" symptoms and sensory overload symptoms experienced in ME/CFS (ref: here).

    So perhaps in that context, the anti-seizure effects of CBD might be helpful in ME/CFS.
     
  5. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Have you watched the WEED documentary, @Hip? The woman in it suffered from several auto-immune disorders (lupus, RA, IC) and it turned her totally around. However they are talking about the juice of the raw leaves, which is perhaos totally different in its action than CBD oil. In general it is nice to use whole plants rather than extracts, as they usually have other compounds that balance and work synergistically.

    This of course does not help those of us for whom it is illegal, or difficult to achieve legal status.
     
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  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @leela

    I have not seen that WEED documentary, but looking up lupus I just found this interesting study on the anti-inflammatory effects of cannabinoids:

    Cannabinoids as novel anti-inflammatory drugs

    I've just super-quickly skimmed though this study. Some excerpts from this study:
    Note that T-regulatory cells are cells that fight autoimmunity.

    These particular cytokines (IL-1, TNF-α and IL-6) cause sickness behavior symptoms (defined as the symptoms you get when you come down with an infection like the flu). ME/CFS symptoms are very similar to sickness behavior symptoms, and some people think ME/CFS is a form of chronic sickness behavior.

    AjA = ajulemic acid = a synthetic non-psychoactive analogue of THC.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
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  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    By the way, the Dixie Botanicals Hemp Oil Supplement mentioned above can be bought legally in the USA, as it des not contain THC, only CBD.

    However, last time I checked, Dixie Botanicals had not yet got a license to sell this product outside the US.
    It would be interesting to hear some personal accounts of ME/CFS patients using Dixie Botanicals Hemp Oil Supplement. But would not hold out too much hope, since I know of ME/CFS patients who smoke cannabis (cannabis contains CBD), but do not report any great benefits.
     
  8. Zensational

    Zensational

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    See what Sanjay Gupta has to say.
    .
     
  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I get great reduction in leg pain and weakness from mild marijuana, which I use occasionally when it is bad, or when my mood is low, and it helps a little with that too. It also reduces my nausea, or at least it used to.

    @Hip, thanks for the info about Th1/Th2. Maybe it's good that I don't use it very often now!
     
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Done some searching and found this 2004 review on cannabinoids and the immune system:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15221424
     
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Seems from that study that the immune shift from Th1 to Th2 caused by smoking cannabis is not significant, except in the lungs where some immunosuppression may occur.

    So in the context of ME/CFS, the immune shift to Th2 caused from smoking cannabis is too insignificant to be of much concern, according to this study. If cannabinoids provided some useful health benefits in ME/CFS, like an anti-inflammatory benefit or anti-autoimmune benefit for example, you could probably safely take them without worrying about an immune shift to Th2.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
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  12. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    I'm going to keep the Dew Drops in mind and will post if I try them. I've been having a terrible time with fibro pain, muscle spasms, and sleep.

    I've only smoked pot once since the 80s, and I couldn't believe how much better it made my fibro pain that day. But I have ADD, and I really didn't like how much spacier I felt. Also, I felt paranoid. So I would be interested to see if I could get some beneficial effects from hemp oil without the psychoactive part.
     
  13. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    I started taking another brand of cannabidiol, Cibdex, bought on Amazon at $40/1oz. I have only been taking it for three days and the first two days I didn't notice much change.

    I am taking it for hip joint pain and sleep issues. Last night I slept with a lot less pain and slept somewhat better. This is especially significant for me since I also had a toothache when I went to bed but it was gone this morning.

    I am taking 30 drops under the tongue, double the dose they recommend. I may drop it back now that it's obviously working and see if 15 drops is enough. I started the first evening with 15 drops, but it may have a cumulative affect so I hope that now 15 drops will do it. At 15 drops, there are said to be "80 servings per container." It says on the bottle that it contains 1.25mg of cannabidiol from 6.25mg of hemp oil, made from seeds and stalks.

    BTW, I had tried valerian root capsules and tincture and passionflower tincture (for sleep issues) and did not get any relief. I also take 500mg magnesium before bed. And I'm doing the Steven Bruhner antiviral protocol for EBV, plus LDN.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2014
    madietodd and Hip like this.
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Interesting stuff, Iquitos. Do please keep us updated on your Cibdex experiments, especially if you sense there are any cumulative benefits for ME/CFS.

    The fact that cannabidiol (CBD) modulates the opioid receptors suggests it may well have long term benefits for ME/CFS. Remember that endorphins, which activate the opioid receptors, are low in ME/CFS; so if cannabidiol serves to increase opioid receptor activation, it may be beneficial. Low dose naltrexone (LDN) benefits ME/CFS by boosting the body's opioid system; and many people who take opioid pain medications for ME/CFS find that these medications significantly improve their ME/CFS symptoms (see this thread). So there is definitely a link between the opioid system and ME/CFS symptoms.

    The elimination half life of cannabidiol is around 2 to 5 days (ref: here), so this means if you take cannabidiol daily, your body levels will build up, and you should then be able to lower your daily dose a little, and still get the same results.


    I notice that, unlike the Dixie Botanicals Hemp Oil, Cibdex is actually available for sale in the UK, on Amazon, for £37. A bit expensive, but if it works well, and one bottle contains 80 servings (nearly 3 months supply), I guess would be worth it.
     
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  15. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    Well, I chickened out last night, about dropping the dose back to 15 drops and took 30 instead. I had felt so much better during the day after sleeping so much better than usual and having less hip pain when walking that I overdid it and I knew it. I did some things that I never do anymore, like shopping in three different places. I usually do that sort of thing over three days time instead of all at once.

    So I slept better than usual again and have less pain today. And I forgot to take a nap yesterday afternoon and didn't suffer for it.

    Another surprising development: One of the lymph nodes under my jaw has shrunk to where I can barely feel it. The other one feels smaller. They both have been swollen and moderately painful for over 30 years.

    I don't know that this is all due to hemp oil drops since I'm still doing the herbal antiviral and part of the antibiotic protocol, which could be contributing to the improvements, but I've been doing that for over a month now and these rather dramatic improvement have happened just since I started the hemp oil.

    I'm going to be moving next week and that will be very hard on me. I intend to keep up the herbal protocol until I run out of those tinctures and then stop and see if the hemp oil will maintain my improvements.

    Tonight I will drop the dosage back to 15 drops and see how it goes. No chance of overdoing it today as I did everything I needed to do yesterday!

    And yes, Hip, I did know about LDN's effect. I had been taking a pain reliever with codeine but don't have the capacity to get that prescription again. It was helpful but not as much as the hemp oil seems to be.

    Spent a lot of time watching the various videos re: medical marijuana on youtube, epecially the science behind it. Don't know why I haven't done that before -- just assumed it wasn't available to me because it wasn't legal where I'm living. I'll be moving to where it is so I guess that's why I started researching it. That the animal, including human, body has endocannabinoid receptors in the brain and the gut has a lot to do with its effectiveness. The research in Israel and Spain is fascinating and the US is starting to do some, too.

    And in case anyone is curious, I feel nothing like a high. The CBD oil has no or very low THC which is why it is legal everywhere in the US and in many other countries.

    Also, ordering it from Amazon is cheaper than ordering it from the Cibdex website because on Amazon if the order cost $35 or more, shipping is free. The Cibdex site charges, if I remember right, something like $8-9.00 to ship.

    An 80 day supply for $40 works out to 50 cents/day, half the cost of my diclofenac with codeine, which was half as effective as the CBD oil. And if I am able to cease the herbal protocol, which is very expensive, I will consider myself very lucky.
     
  16. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    Tried the 15 drops dosage and didn't get satisfactory results. So it's back to 30 drops for me from now on.
     
    Hip likes this.
  17. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    or try increasing it gradually and see if a dose below 30 drops is enough? (After all it's not cheap!)
     
  18. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    It worked well at 30 drops so I think I'll start there and back off a drop or two each time until I know the minimum for me. Getting a better night's sleep and less pain is worth "wasting" a little of it in the process. Thanks for the suggestion!
     
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  19. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I had full sedation recently, and I was supposed to be completely fine within 24 hours. It took 3 days for my eyesight to stop going off. So I figure I metabolize some drugs more slowly than normal.

    Hip said the half-life of Cibdex is 2 to 5 days (post 14, above). So I imagine the individual daily dose would depend on the effective dose needed AND rate of metabolism. That is, for people this works for.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  20. Tristen

    Tristen Senior Member

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    Living in the middle of the Emerald Triangle for years, I've seen first hand the many good benefits cannabis can have on several health problems.....seizure disorders being one of them. Someone very close to me has a son with a severe siezure disorder who after years of going through the list of pharmaceutical drugs with minimal benefits and horrible side effects, found cannabis to be very effective. The oil without the THC has been available for some time now. It has almost completely stopped his seizures (without being high). I've often thought of trying it for the me/cfs since there is some evidence of it's anti-inflammatory effects on the brain.
     
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