Psychedelics and Immunomodulation: Novel Approaches and Therapeutic Opportunities

Marylib

Senior Member
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1,168
I had never tried psylocibin before (never tried LSD) and I would not do it again, because it is too stressful perhaps. And I don't want to gamble. But I sure loved that sleep and felt much better than usual the next day.
 
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@actup when I was using shrooms I got very good results from dosing once a month, or once every three weeks. Shrooms doesn't seem to interact with sigma receptors tho, just serotonine receptors, so they won't modulate immune system, at least not so directly as DMT, for serotonin does affect immunity but in a total different level and scale.

I guess I don't totally understand the science behind it but I've been working with LSD and it seems to have modulated my immune system to a large degree. It's sort of seeming like my silver bullet to feeling better. Its also known to be potently anti-inflammatory. I'm getting close to symptom free. whatever the mechanism, its effects are dramatic for me

Some people are experimenting with microdosing LSD.
yes, it has been helping me a lot. Macrodosing has been even better.
 

fredam7

Senior Member
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159
I guess I don't totally understand the science behind it but I've been working with LSD and it seems to have modulated my immune system to a large degree. It's sort of seeming like my silver bullet to feeling better. Its also known to be potently anti-inflammatory. I'm getting close to symptom free. whatever the mechanism, its effects are dramatic for me


yes, it has been helping me a lot. Macrodosing has been even better.

Did you have other disorders along with CFS? A pain dr tried everything including methadone and marijuana and I got no relief, in fact, my pain got worse . I have a very bad large fiber disorder that causes intractable pain so it's more than taken a toll.
I had a bit of improvement with anxiety when I took very clean , medical grade mj with equal thc and cbd but both low percentages . I also slept some and didn't wake with terror attacks. The farmer was put out of business of course as junk flooded that market, so I was never able to get anything remotely close to it again.
The pain dr told me to try mushrooms and told me a specific name but I forgot , of course . He also told me to try ayahuasca. I have not done either because something terrible happened a year as a result of me freezing and the consequences are ongoing so nowI have anxiety that's so severe I will do anything to get away from the terror it is causing. So in that frame of mind , I'm
concerned how I would handle either drug . I might do something horrible . Did you feel any compulsion to harm yourself when you took the doses? I mean in ways you would have to live with when you came to? I'm
not afraid for any reason other than my terror and how it might manifest .
Did you do this at home alone?

It's very interesting because the pain dr is a very good one and is highly respected and had no
Need to take the risk of telling me to do this. He sincerely believed in it. I know stress feeds into all disease and disorders.

how did it regulate your immune system ? I don't mean technically but what changes did you see happening ?
 

ScottTriGuy

Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.
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LSD and it seems to have modulated my immune system to a large degree. It's sort of seeming like my silver bullet to feeling better. Its also known to be potently anti-inflammatory. I'm getting close to symptom free. whatever the mechanism, its effects are dramatic for me

Very interesting.

What prompted you to try LSD for ME?
 

jesse's mom

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Alabama USA
So in that frame of mind , I'm
concerned how I would handle either drug . I might do something horrible . Did you feel any compulsion to harm yourself when you took the doses? I mean in ways you would have to live with when you came to? I'm
not afraid for any reason other than my terror and how it might manifest .
Did you do this at home alone?

@fredam7 I believe that your frame of mind is not in a place to handle experimenting with this alone.

I see you are thinking carefully about this option and I support that. Set and setting are so very important with hallucinogens. IF you do try microdosing I do not think if you get anxious that it would last long. I would make sure to have someone with me if I am anxious.

In all things I really go low and slow when trying a new supplement, vitamin or anything at all.
My ME/CFS has caused me to be very sensitive and I have to start with tiny amounts.
 
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29
Did you have other disorders along with CFS? A pain dr tried everything including methadone and marijuana and I got no relief, in fact, my pain got worse . I have a very bad large fiber disorder that causes intractable pain so it's more than taken a toll.

I had a bit of improvement with anxiety when I took very clean , medical grade mj with equal thc and cbd but both low percentages . I also slept some and didn't wake with terror attacks. The farmer was put out of business of course as junk flooded that market, so I was never able to get anything remotely close to it again.

The pain dr told me to try mushrooms and told me a specific name but I forgot , of course . He also told me to try ayahuasca. I have not done either because something terrible happened a year as a result of me freezing and the consequences are ongoing so nowI have anxiety that's so severe I will do anything to get away from the terror it is causing. So in that frame of mind , I'm
concerned how I would handle either drug . I might do something horrible . Did you feel any compulsion to harm yourself when you took the doses? I mean in ways you would have to live with when you came to? I'm not afraid for any reason other than my terror and how it might manifest .
Did you do this at home alone?

It's very interesting because the pain dr is a very good one and is highly respected and had no
Need to take the risk of telling me to do this. He sincerely believed in it. I know stress feeds into all disease and disorders.

how did it regulate your immune system ? I don't mean technically but what changes did you see happening ?

So sorry to hear about your struggles. I mean, my sickness never perfectly fit diagnoses and changed a lot over time. I've had CFS, Fibro, CIRs put on my doctor charts. I probably would have been diagnosed with GAD had I realized that the level of stress and worry I experienced wasn't normal. It's tough because researchers are studying the use of these psychedelics to treat anxiety, and the results are stunning! At the same time, being in a very scared, upset frame of mind when using them can exacerbate the anxiety by a lot. I've never felt a compulsion to harm myself or anyone or do anything really stupid (like try to drive or make important decisions). But its definitely taken me down some very uncomfortable lines of thinking and created some kinds of confusing, overstimulating dream-like thoughts. I mean, these have all been still useful in a way, afterwards (like, why did my brain go there? helping me to understand myself better, I guess) but I haven't ever done it alone just in case I got stuck in a negative thought loop, as that person can reassure you and get you out of your head in case you don't have the presence of mind to yourself. Or just show you something shiny, which is easily distracting LOL. I did do it at home. In total comfort, in my pajamas, with a trustworthy friend.

That is really interesting that your doc recommended something similar. I think that's great, and I can definitely attest that these experiences have done more for my anxiety than top tier antidepressants. But I wouldn't jump into it when terrified. There really is a ton of info out there on people's experiences, which might be a first step to understanding what you'd be getting into. Fear of the unknown totally makes sense. Doing the research doesn't commit you to anything.
 
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Very interesting.

What prompted you to try LSD for ME?
@ScottTriGuy
Well, I was helped somewhat by Annie Hopper's DNRS therapy, which is based on the premise that the brain can get entrenched in patterns or 'wired' in ways that are dysfunctional and cause physical issues, and the anxiety caused by that can further cement in these patterns. so in a nutshell, the therapy is to re-wire yourself using CBT like tools. I improved a lot and was able to better control my anxiety as a result, and some of the symptoms went away, but a lot still remained. So my thought was to look for other tools that create or affect neuroplasticity. And that's one of the main aspects of LSD and other psychedelics that has earned them the attention as a possible medicine for disease that is affected by the brain. And since people are using it to treat anxiety and PTSD, seemed like a good fit. I'm not meaning to peg CFS/ME and all associated things as being simply the result of anxiety. But it seems really clear that anxiety and stress are drivers that further intensify the disease (which is so messed up since, yeah- you feel like crap, you hurt, you feel like your life is slipping away while you sleep and stare at the wall, so of course you feel anxious and stressed out!!!! ). Anyways, the LSD reaaaaaallllllly interrupts this spiral. And I'm still finding it magical that my mold tolerance, which was once outrageous, and some other things, are coming to heal as a result, reaching more normal levels of sensitivity. And the weird physical and physiological signs of inflammation lessen.
 

ScottTriGuy

Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.
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And the weird physical and physiological signs of inflammation lessen.

Thanks for sharing - have you read either of Dr Norman Doidge's books on nueroplasticity? One of his chapter's on laser therapy seemed like it may be helpful for my ME symptoms, and it was when I used it on my brainstem.

It sounds like the LSD makes near-immediate changes in nueroplasticity, and that seems hard to reconcile with what I've read about the need for consistent effort / training to facilitate plasticity.

Perhaps the LSD also has anti-inflammatory properties and that would account for the quick effect? Or do you think the change is immediate (and permanent)?
 
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29
@ScottTriGuy

I did read that book! Wow that's so cool that laser helped you. I need to look into that

Yes...near immediate changes. Right- the training and repetition to get some of the 're-wiring' to occur was quite a lot when trying to use non-drug approaches. They worked, but it took so much effort that after a year of full on dedication, and some great gains that started coming on slower and slower, I wanted to enjoy feeling a bit better and having more time out of bed instead of funneling most of my ok time into the training practices. I did try anti-depressants before LSD, and they did help some, at least in the sense of keeping the still pretty strong anxiety a bit more muted, so I was able to cope better with living with the symptoms. IT did seem to diminish the symptoms some too but not as dramatically as with the LSD.

There are some good research papers out there showing how LSD is a potent anti-inflammatory substance; I don't understand the physiological mechanism they describe but my opinion is that this one of two ways that he drug is helping. The other way, which researchers are trying to explore using FMRI and things like that, is how different regions of the brain start communicating and showing activity while under the influence. So apparently people sometimes can smell colors and taste music (I haven't ever experienced that). While interesting to experience I bet, that doesn't seem immediately helpful...but its an example of the larger picture of what's happening, where the parts of the brain are interacting in all these novel ways, which overrides the 'default mode network' - that limbic hyperreactive part that we're trying to tame with the brain training. And truthfully, while under the influence, it feels like the drug turns the volume waaaaaaaaay down on that stressed out, chattery part of you. Sweet relief. Granted, your mind with its newfound freedom might be going in silly, confusing, creative, mystical adventures that you have to endure until the experience is over some 10 hours later. It's not always fun but I just remind myself that that's part of loosening up the patterns/neuroplasticity.

Of course with microdoses, this loosening seems to happen at a much more subtle but still useful scale, without having to go through the sometimes fun or profound or scary places your brain goes when you let it off the leash with bigger doses.

I've been messing around with micro and macro for 6 going on 7 months. At first the micro was like taking an aspirin, and having your headache go away for a bit. Over time, I slowly noticed my sleep improving, my stress lowered, my anxiety becoming more robust and appropriate for the gravity of the situation at hand. Weird pains started going away, thought loops less common, happier demeanor, and the body's response to my triggers changed- and after a couple months, pretty cool stuff, like being able to go somewhere moldy and recover pretty quick (e.g. 2 days of feeling half mast and fatigued but still functional, vs years of an exposure meaning total cloudintheface for a week or more, leading to bedrest and of course all sorts of weird physical symptoms, after which you get a bit better but still feel baseline crappy). Sorry it takes a bit to explain- the periods of relief after doing it got longer and longer. At this point, quite a few things seem to be permanent although I suppose I haven't been at this all that long. I do know after switching over to doing more infrequent but full doses that some symptoms and sensitivity to triggers seem to get knocked out. I've kind of been a pig in eating all the things that were offlimits for years but are now suddenly ok and seems like the green light on these is stickingn around.
 

stefanosstef

Senior Member
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528
@ScottTriGuy

I did read that book! Wow that's so cool that laser helped you. I need to look into that

Yes...near immediate changes. Right- the training and repetition to get some of the 're-wiring' to occur was quite a lot when trying to use non-drug approaches. They worked, but it took so much effort that after a year of full on dedication, and some great gains that started coming on slower and slower, I wanted to enjoy feeling a bit better and having more time out of bed instead of funneling most of my ok time into the training practices. I did try anti-depressants before LSD, and they did help some, at least in the sense of keeping the still pretty strong anxiety a bit more muted, so I was able to cope better with living with the symptoms. IT did seem to diminish the symptoms some too but not as dramatically as with the LSD.

There are some good research papers out there showing how LSD is a potent anti-inflammatory substance; I don't understand the physiological mechanism they describe but my opinion is that this one of two ways that he drug is helping. The other way, which researchers are trying to explore using FMRI and things like that, is how different regions of the brain start communicating and showing activity while under the influence. So apparently people sometimes can smell colors and taste music (I haven't ever experienced that). While interesting to experience I bet, that doesn't seem immediately helpful...but its an example of the larger picture of what's happening, where the parts of the brain are interacting in all these novel ways, which overrides the 'default mode network' - that limbic hyperreactive part that we're trying to tame with the brain training. And truthfully, while under the influence, it feels like the drug turns the volume waaaaaaaaay down on that stressed out, chattery part of you. Sweet relief. Granted, your mind with its newfound freedom might be going in silly, confusing, creative, mystical adventures that you have to endure until the experience is over some 10 hours later. It's not always fun but I just remind myself that that's part of loosening up the patterns/neuroplasticity.

Of course with microdoses, this loosening seems to happen at a much more subtle but still useful scale, without having to go through the sometimes fun or profound or scary places your brain goes when you let it off the leash with bigger doses.

I've been messing around with micro and macro for 6 going on 7 months. At first the micro was like taking an aspirin, and having your headache go away for a bit. Over time, I slowly noticed my sleep improving, my stress lowered, my anxiety becoming more robust and appropriate for the gravity of the situation at hand. Weird pains started going away, thought loops less common, happier demeanor, and the body's response to my triggers changed- and after a couple months, pretty cool stuff, like being able to go somewhere moldy and recover pretty quick (e.g. 2 days of feeling half mast and fatigued but still functional, vs years of an exposure meaning total cloudintheface for a week or more, leading to bedrest and of course all sorts of weird physical symptoms, after which you get a bit better but still feel baseline crappy). Sorry it takes a bit to explain- the periods of relief after doing it got longer and longer. At this point, quite a few things seem to be permanent although I suppose I haven't been at this all that long. I do know after switching over to doing more infrequent but full doses that some symptoms and sensitivity to triggers seem to get knocked out. I've kind of been a pig in eating all the things that were offlimits for years but are now suddenly ok and seems like the green light on these is stickingn around.

What was your lsd dosage?I have only experimented with, I guess, around 40-60mcg dosages.Never a bad experience.The 1st time was really weird because the next day and for the next day and for the next 9 months I was occasionally having very strange synchronicity experiences that made me question the nature of reality and timespace continuum.I am very rational and couldnt explain what was happening in a rational way, it was the number of these instances that made them seem too improbable to have happened by chance.

The other times was just happy time, i dont remember getting any other benefits but i wasnt as crashed as i am now.
 

ChookityPop

Senior Member
Messages
605
I guess I don't totally understand the science behind it but I've been working with LSD and it seems to have modulated my immune system to a large degree. It's sort of seeming like my silver bullet to feeling better. Its also known to be potently anti-inflammatory. I'm getting close to symptom free. whatever the mechanism, its effects are dramatic for me


yes, it has been helping me a lot. Macrodosing has been even better.

Wow. amazing. Which symptoms did you have pre lsd?
 

Marylib

Senior Member
Messages
1,168
I just read something today about psylocibin treatment having good results one year out for depression. I guess the trick is to find that 'sweet spot' in terms of dosage and frequency of dosage and be open to it. If it works, great. If it doesn't, then you've learned something.
 

hmnr asg

Senior Member
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571
There were two people on the cfs subreddit who said DMT has substantially reduced their symptoms.
If only if it was something easy to get a hold of I would have definitely tried by now
 

Dufresne

almost there...
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There are psychedelic societies, albeit somewhat underground, that can be contacted if one is interested in exploring these options. Personally, psychedelics don't do much in the way of lasting positive effects for me, and I think there are risks that really aren't addressed in today's 'third wave' fervour.

Dr Roland Griffiths has done some pretty solid research without reports of lasting negative effects. I think this comes down to his screening process being very good, as well as the careful way in which his research is conducted. But if you look at the history of these drugs in the rockers of the 60's you can quickly see there are probably risks. Vince Taylor, Peter Green, Syd Barrett, Brian Wilson, etc all seem to have had lasting issues with psychosis following psychedelic use. And that's just the rock stars. I know someone who had a similar outcome, I have several friends who know of others. Interesting that the names I mention above and all the negative, lasting effects I've heard of happened with LSD. I've never heard of this happening with mushrooms, and this is the psychedelic Dr Griffiths has primarily researched at Johns Hopkins.

I've also heard of lasting negative effects from ayahuasca.
 

hmnr asg

Senior Member
Messages
571
There are psychedelic societies, albeit somewhat underground, that can be contacted if one is interested in exploring these options. Personally, psychedelics don't do much in the way of lasting positive effects for me, and I think there are risks that really aren't addressed in today's 'third wave' fervour.

Dr Roland Griffiths has done some pretty solid research without reports of lasting negative effects. I think this comes down to his screening process being very good, as well as the careful way in which his research is conducted. But if you look at the history of these drugs in the rockers of the 60's you can quickly see there are probably risks. Vince Taylor, Peter Green, Syd Barrett, Brian Wilson, etc all seem to have had lasting issues with psychosis following psychedelic use. And that's just the rock stars. I know someone who had a similar outcome, I have several friends who know of others. Interesting that the names I mention above and all the negative, lasting effects I've heard of happened with LSD. I've never heard of this happening with mushrooms, and this is the psychedelic Dr Griffiths has primarily researched at Johns Hopkins.

I've also heard of lasting negative effects from ayahuasca.

The people who ended up with HPPD [link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_perception_disorder] and psychosis back in the 60s were doing COPIOUS amounts of LSD, likely combined with other drugs. I think this third wave that you speak of mainly consists of responsible adults who want to use psychedelics for therapeutic use and are very interested in the science of it. Unfortunately because of the stigma that persists to this day the research is slow to progress.

I dont think anybody would deny the dangers of psychedelics, even the most ardent "third wave" enthusiasts.
My experience has also been that the most serious lasting negative impacts are caused by LSD. Mushrooms seem to be a lot less detrimental.
In terms of CFS, the one psychedelics that I have heard good things about was DMT in low doses (a few stories on reddit).
 
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