Potential Suramin Alternatives - Sytrinol and Kudzu (Anti Purinergic Therapy)

[raghav]

I tried Clemastine 1 mg yesterday night. It made me feel jittery after 2 hrs and then the jitters lasted throughout my sleep. It kept waking me up and caused nightmares. Maybe I will try it tonight and see whether it goes away. But other than that I did not feel any increase in energy. I have also ordered Styrinol (Doctor's best) I will try it and give my feedback.

 

[raghav]

Got Doctor's Best Sytrinol and immediately took 2 gel capsules (150mg x 2). Keeping fingers crossed.

 

[frozenborderline]

I'm still considering emodin, the lapodin product that i posted can be taken orally, or the drug cascara, if it can be found ...
if I do do this under my naturopath's supervision, will report back.

Has nobody here experienced dramatic positive effects from anything?

 

[frozenborderline]

Rhamnus purshiana/cascara is probably another good source of emodin

 

[frozenborderline]

It might do, and the concentration of emodin in the Lapodin would also be a major factor. Without a pharmacokinetic study of Lapodin, though, it would hard to know what blood levels of emodin Lapodin will achieve. The problem with emodin is its toxicity, which means you should not really use it for more than two weeks in a row (even when using normal safe doses).

Hip, do you have a reference for the toxicity of emodin?
and a reference for a safe dose range? I think this lapodin supplement can also be taken orally. SHould be able to tell if it absorbs transdermally though, because beyond the anti-purinergic effects, it's a potent laxative, probably even transdermally... so I would think I'd know when it's working.

 

[frozenborderline]

It might do, and the concentration of emodin in the Lapodin would also be a major factor. Without a pharmacokinetic study of Lapodin, though, it would hard to know what blood levels of emodin Lapodin will achieve. The problem with emodin is its toxicity, which means you should not really use it for more than two weeks in a row (even when using normal safe doses).

the solvent is an SFA ester, which according to the manufacturer, is very easily absorbed transdermally

 

[Hip]

Hip, do you have a reference for the toxicity of emodin?

No specific reference, but many articles will mention its toxicity. Also if you look at articles about the herb Rheum palmatum (Chinese rhubarb, Da Huang) which contains emodin, you will see similar toxicity warnings, and advice that you should not use this herb for more than around 2 weeks, due to toxicity.

 

[frozenborderline]

No specific reference, but many articles will mention its toxicity. Also if you look at articles about the herb Rheum palmatum (Chinese rhubarb, Da Huang) which contains emodin, you will see similar toxicity warnings, and advice that you should not use this herb for more than around 2 weeks, due to toxicity.

Okay, just curious because the specific mechanism of toxicity would determine what I would be concerned about it interacting with. I know that it's a laxative so maybe it makes people too dehydrated?

 

[Hip]

It's liver or kidney toxicity that can appear in some people when they take emodin. Although emodin can also be hepatoprotective in some circumstances (it can protect against acetaminophen-induced liver toxicity).

 

[frozenborderline]

It's liver or kidney toxicity that can appear in some people when they take emodin. Although emodin can also be hepatoprotective in some circumstances (it can protect against acetaminophen-induced liver toxicity).

that's good to know, because standard antivirals can cause liver/kidney toxicity, right?

But is the toxicity for rheum palpatum or just emodin?

 

[frozenborderline]

either way I will probably take my chances with some short term doses

 

[Hip]

But is the toxicity for rheum palpatum or just emodin?

It's for both, as the herb contains emodin.

 

[Ema]

FYI: Note that clemastine was recently found to be potentially very useful in multiple sclerosis.

I've been taking clemastine for a while now, since all that MS research came out as I have a bit of color loss in my left eye that may be due to optic neuritis.

I find it to be a good antihistamine as well, though the sedating effects have worn off for the most part. I can take a full tablet in the morning (2.68 mg), no problems.

I'm very interested in all these other potential pathways as well. It's amazing how often drugs work in ways that are completely different from their specified uses!

 

[frozenborderline]

My lapodin is in the mail and I am also ordering cascara sagrada. Since I can't get pure emodin, I'm getting one product that's emodin + beta-lapachone in a solvent that will work transdermally, and then cascara sagrada, which is a good plant source of emodin. I will try and match the doses that hip talks about and report back to all.

I am thinking that other than it's anti-purinergic effects, it could help with virus or gut issues so I'm somewhat excited.

 

[frozenborderline]

I don't think I'm going to take high doses of lapodin, given that it has a compound that may be synergistic (beta-lapachone). I'm going to take low doses that may not be anti-purinergic. But I will try the higher doses once I get some cascara sagrada.

Incidentally, emodin seems to have a broad range of effects that promote healthy oxidative metabolism and are cardioprotective:

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/06/12/what-you-know-about-emodin/

(this link is just a page that has compiled a list of studies)

 

[frozenborderline]

Tried my first dose of lapodin today. I really don't think I'd feel comfortable pushing the dose of emodin up to 80 mg. I took about 20 mg (with 5 mg of beta-lapachone). It make my stomach feel weird even at this dose. i got briefly dizzy, not terribly so

my pulse has increased slightly. i feel warmer. The only very pronounced side effect is my stomach pain, which is not severe but is just a weird sensation. In fact, overall this sensation is strange.

It has increased my energy a little, I think, but hard to tell as the timing of it with my additional naltrexone dose was weird.

I think the effect is overall positive (the warmth was pronounced and perhaps a sign of better metabolism) but the possibility of side effects makes me nervous. The sensations are not overall bad, just unfamiliar.


http://www.idealabsdc.com/

if anyone is curious about trying it.

I may titrate doses more carefully in the future.

The only weird thing about it is the supplier refuses to disclose the exact SFA ester he uses as a solvent. @Hip I was wondering if you can speak to the safety of SFA esters. He switched to SFA esters as people had issues with the DMSO.

 

[Hip]

@Hip I was wondering if you can speak to the safety of SFA esters.

I don't know what that is.

 

[frozenborderline]

update--stomach is still feeling weird. caution against people with gut issues using the dose I did of emodin, maybe start smaller

 

[deboruth]

i wish i could grasp what this means, as it states both suramin and plavix in one study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143661/

It's about ways to discourage clotting. Plavix was a new drug using a new mechanism to do this. The point about Suramin is that the anti-purinergic activity it can be used to induce is also anti-thrombotic. The discussion is about anti-purinergics that act to discourage the biological cascade to a clot versus a closely similar anti-purinergic that won't do so. This is only the kindergarten level discussion of the introduction. But the point is both drugs -- Plavix and Suramin -- made it into the discussion because they both have anti-purinergic effects that can contribute to stopping unwanted clotting.

 

[pattismith]

But the point is both drugs -- Plavix and Suramin -- made it into the discussion because they both have anti-purinergic effects that can contribute to stopping unwanted clotting.

unfortunately Clopidogrel (Plavix), is only a P2Y12 inhibitor, (whereas suramin is a non specific P2X and P2Y inhibitor)