Positive Thinking, The Secret, Huna....

[Joyful Lady]

It is a REAL problem when you are tryin to be a SPIN DOCTOR with us who know what you are up to!!!! I am sure you can find some ignorant people with "colds" on the internet to go and pedal your crazy ramblings to. When you figure out how to think stealthy Lyme Bacteria and Viruses out of the body...let me know. I once had an aquaintance tell me that BELIEF CREATES BIOLOGY...and he had a massive heart attack a year later.... hmmmm wonder if still thinks that??? Karma does eventually catch up to those who "judge" is all I know.

A final question. If someone was here looking for clients would they not provide their website and contact information? What do you have as evidence to support your opinion that you are interpreting the situation accurately? I ask, not because I care what you think about me, but because it might be beneficial for you to consider more than the first thought that comes to your mind as a viable answer and to ask a follow-up question of yourself such as, "Is there anything that supports my conclusion?" and "Is there anything that might cast doubts about this conclusion?"

I noticed when I joined that this forum provides a place where I could have listed my website but I chose not to do so - my purpose here was to try to shed some light from a 3rd party onto the mind-body connection discussion. The posts I saw before I joined were all vehemently denying any connection between mind and body, but it seemed their denial was linked to seeing it as an accusation and to being denied treatment by being told something was "all in their head". I hoped to provide some beneficial information and a different perspective from someone who was not denying a physical illness and who is very knowledgeable about many aspects.

I have learned a great deal from these interactions.

 

[Jacque]

My clients are not sick people who are coming for cures. They are people who want to thrive. I am not here seeking clients. I do not "seek" clients. They find me. Your world is painted by your beilefs; just as everyone's is - that does not make their beliefs accurate. That does not negate that experience with hundreds of individuals does not give me valid references and examples that help me explain concepts and my level of experience.

I know you are happy someone who once upset you had a heart attack and died. Since I know karma is hogwash what is the relationship between the two? If it makes you feel better to believe he was somehow 'repaid' for the emotional wounds he inflicted on you (or your perception allowed -- you did not have to give his words any credence - that was your choice). If someone said you had green hair would you believe them? Why believe anything another says if it dose not resonate with your own internal knowing? Give yourself more credit and others less.

He didn't DIE...FYI...and is no longer chanting his ridiculous arrogant self rightous mantra... You have NO EXPERIENCE when it comes to what we are dealing with here....

And, yes I know you think we are all ANGRY too and that is why we are sick.... So (as I scratch my head) I guess in all of my F'd up stinkin think at age 11 I subconsiously asked a tick to crawl in my ear and bite me...spewing its many infections into my body which I have been fighting or over 35 years...because I am so negative that I want to stay sick..it is serving me so well.

 

[Dainty]

Would it be okay if we all just take a deep breath here?

I hardly know what the conversation is about anymore.

 

[Jacque]

yeah ,my son got cancer at the age of 2 1/2 he was the happiest giggliest little boy on the planet . Ive seen kids born with cancer or get it at a few months old . Ive always said folk should spend some time on a childrens cancer ward believe you me it puts a whole new perspective on everything and has got sod all to do with positive thinking either on part of the parent or the child .

BTW...I am very sorry to hear about your son. I too have spent much time in the Los Angeles Childrens hosp with my Grandson, so I wholeheartedly agree with what you said. I am sure the Joyful one would tell us those innocent children are suffering to learn lessons they didn't learn in past lives or some CRAP like that!

 

[currer]

In one year I was offered a position I had lamented ever receiving and a 64% raise. I did not apply for the position, they contacted me -- after I changed my belief about what I was ready for and worth.

Ha! "Spirituality" - linked to materialism.

I thought material gain would come in somewhere.
The highest spirituality is one maintained for its own sake, even when it leads to loss.
Spirituality is a higher function than material advantage.

You have to do it for its' own sake only.

 

[currer]

In that sense,- that dignity, kindness, and courage are maintained by many on this forum even in the face of terrible disadvantage, pain, and stigma, PWME frequently express greater spirituality in little ways in their everyday lives than can be appreciated by outside observers.

And, no, there is not much reward.
I guess that is the test.

Most people who come to this forum express kindness and courage and help each other.
That is spirituality.

 

[pollycbr125]

Thankyou Jaque Im happy to say we were one of the lucky ones and hes now a healthy(ish) 17 year old . I did notice Joyful Lady didnt respond to that particular post I made funny that . Sorry to hear about your grandson I hope he is on the road to recovery x.

Im all for people having their own beliefs , thoughts, ideas and religions etc . whatever works for you but what Im not for is others preaching and ramming their ideas down other peoples throats . It reminds me of cults tbh id rather plod my way through life doing my own thing mistakes and all that way I only have myself to answer to .Tbh im waiting for the post that declares we can all be cured for a mere £500

 

[Jacque]

Thankyou Jaque Im happy to say we were one of the lucky ones and hes now a healthy(ish) 17 year old . I did notice Joyful Lady didnt respond to that particular post I made funny that . Sorry to hear about your grandson I hope he is on the road to recovery x.

Im all for people having their own beliefs , thoughts, ideas and religions etc . whatever works for you but what Im not for is others preaching and ramming their ideas down other peoples throats . It reminds me of cults tbh id rather plod my way through life doing my own thing mistakes and all that way I only have myself to answer to .Tbh im waiting for the post that declares we can all be cured for a mere £500

My gorgeous grandson is now 3 months old and came through MIRACULOUSLY!! I was told he would likely not survive...but HE DID... he must have some important things to do here in this life!!! I am a very happy Grandma...that is after I got ver the CRASH I took after the stress of it all.... I am sooo happy to hear about your son as well... I am all about each person finding their way in this world as well....

 

[Roy S]

Folks,
I'd suggest just hitting the report button and letting the moderators decide.
In my opinion "I know you are happy someone who once upset you had a heart attack and died." is way over the line.

 

[pollycbr125]

My gorgeous grandson is now 3 months old and came through MIRACULOUSLY!! I was told he would likely not survive...but HE DID... he must have some important things to do here in this life!!! I am a very happy Grandma...that is after I got ver the CRASH I took after the stress of it all.... I am sooo happy to hear about your son as well... I am all about each person finding their way in this world as well....but can smell a RAT a mile away...and Joyful woman really smells..... She needs to listen to some of her own CRAP......

so pleased your grandson is doing well now enjoy they don't stay babies for long

 

[Jarod]

Yeah. When medical staff think it's acceptable for them to manage the cognitions of patients, it very easily slips in to a justification for telling the patient whatever the doctor wants them to hear. It's easy for a doctor to not take account of the real hardship which is caused by the provision of 'positive' views of one's condition or prognosis, as the problems it leads to tend to be outside the medical realm. I think it can become an equation of 'If positive thinking helps their recovery, great. If not, no skin off my nose.'

I think the calculation or equation in my case was definitely wrong.

 

[jeffrez]

The idea that unconscious thought patterns can cause disease is based on a logical fallacy, the psychogenic fallacy. There are two papers by Sykes that address this, and I wrote a blog on it some time back. There is no disagreement that the mind can influence health. It is equally obvious that the mind is a function of the body, at least to those with a science background. Depression looks to be an autoimmune disease in some cases. It is not really a psychiatric illness for this subgroup, its a physical illness with psychiatric symptoms. PTSD is probably resulting from traumatic structural changes to the brain. It is therefore not a psychiatric illness, but a neurological one.

The whole notion of psychogenic induced physical disease is based on more than a century of errors and fallacies. The mind influeces body, ergo the mind causes disease ... thats a logical fallacy. We can't find the physical cause of disease, ergo its has a psychogenic cause ... another fallacy.

In fact I do not believe mind exists at all. I think, in all probability, mind is a convenient description of brain function. We can talk to our brain, whether you call it thought or verbal talk, but its just one more input to specific regions of the brain. Its not magical. So it can have some impact, but it can't have miraculous impact. The notion is therefore a superstition, not science. That does not mean that it cannot be right in some cases, only that we have no substantive evidence of it.

Bye, Alex

The unconscious can't be quantified, measured or determined, so it's actually incorrect to say that the idea that it can influence health is a fallacy. Because we can't measure or test it, we really can't make a definitive scientific conclusion about it one way or another. It's really just a matter of opinion, something either one believes or one doesn't, kind of like the notion of "god" (which might in fact be our brains' way of representing our unconscious to us ;-)).

Otoh, the conscious mind can be measured and determined in particular ways, and it's well known that conscious mind patterns can influence health, and even create disease. Of course it would then not be a huge leap to suspect that the unconscious can also, but like we're perhaps both saying in slightly different ways, we can't yet say for sure that it does, at least not with scientific certainty.

 

[alex3619]

The unconscious can't be quantified, measured or determined, so it's actually incorrect to say that the idea that it can influence health is a fallacy. Because we can't measure or test it, we really can't make a definitive scientific conclusion about it one way or another. It's really just a matter of opinion, something either one believes or one doesn't, kind of like the notion of "god" (which might in fact be our brains' way of representing our unconscious to us ;-)).

To conclude that because the mind can influence the body, the mind can cause disease, is a fallacy. It does not follow. It might be true, or might be true in select instances, but there is no basis for concluding it must be true. Thats why its a fallacy. Its just invalid logic.

So if they said the mind can influence the body, therefore its possible the mind can cause disease, that would be acceptable. That however shows the idea is an hypothesis requiring scientific testing. Where is the approriate scientific investigation? The last thing that people pushing this line want us to think is that all this is unproven hypotheses.

I do not agree that conscious thought can cause disease. It can lead to aberrant behaviour, but that is not a disease. That it can exacerbate existing disease symptoms, that is also not in doubt. That it can cause such diseases has never been proved that I can see, though it has often been claimed. It might however create risk factors, there is enough evidence to suggest that. So it might participate in initiating disease states, but the mental issues are not themselves the disease states, though other mental issues might arise out of disease states.

I am not sure the concept of a sub/unconscious mind makes sense. The subconsious, or unconscious, is just the brain we are not conscious of so far as I am concerned.

Now if they had real evidence of psychosomatic causation, that would be different, but the science just isn't there yet.

Bye, Alex

 

[Tammy]

Here is my short perspective which I hope comes out OK............I am not articulate as alot of you are. I personally don't think what Joyful lady has said is so farfetched. I think she has made herself very clear that she doesn't expect everyone here to just think positive and it will cure them of CFS. As far as logic goes....(Alex)........what is logic anyway?..............I've seen many things and have experienced some very strange things that one would only see in a sci-fi movie.....and as open minded as I think I am..........Am still perplexed at something that happened to me that in no way could ever be explained LOGICALLY. Let's for the moment take Logic out of the equation...................

 

[Tammy]

There are definitely cases of people with different illnesses that have somehow became well with change of mind.............one that comes to mind is a lady by the name of Evy McDonald who was diagnosed with Lou Gherigs disease and recovered after transformation of the way she was thinking about life. So all I'm saying is that yes...........it can happen....it's possible..........and before you throw tomatoes at me............I will also say that I think it unfortunately happens to only a few. Why does it happen for some and not for others? I DON'T KNOW.

 

[Tammy]

I remember a very televised minister once being asked why some people get healed when he lays hands on them and others don't. I really liked his honest reply which was I DON'T KNOW! I met a lady with CFS one time in L.A. We were both there to see a healer............(..yes....I've tried just about everything). Well guess what the outcome was..............she was healed after 3 sessions............I was not. WhY? I DON'T KNOW! There are things which defy logic and to me it's all relative anyway......what is logical to one might not be to another.............dependent on our own level of understanding, awareness and experiences.

 

[jeffrez]

To conclude that because the mind can influence the body, the mind can cause disease, is a fallacy. It does not follow. It might be true, or might be true in select instances, but there is no basis for concluding it must be true. Thats why its a fallacy. Its just invalid logic.

Hmm, not quite. ;-) I didn't conclude that because the mind can influence the body, the mind can cause disease. I concluded that the mind can cause disease because the scientific evidence shows that the mind can cause disease. Heart disease, for one. The mind obviously can also cause disorders of mental health. No fallacy there, only science. ;-)

I do not agree that conscious thought can cause disease. It can lead to aberrant behaviour, but that is not a disease. That it can exacerbate existing disease symptoms, that is also not in doubt. That it can cause such diseases has never been proved that I can see, though it has often been claimed. It might however create risk factors, there is enough evidence to suggest that. So it might participate in initiating disease states, but the mental issues are not themselves the disease states, though other mental issues might arise out of disease states.

Aberrant behavior actually is a disease when considering many mental illnesses. The disease of anorexia, for example, is characterized by certain behaviors (i.e., not eating). A person might have a distorted body image, fear of gaining weight, or other psychological issues, but as long as he or she is eating and maintaining normal body weight s/he doesn't meet the criteria for the disease. Same with bulimia, cutting, pulling hair out (trichotillomania), etc. As long as you are not engaging in the behaviors, you don't meet the criteria for the disorder (pre-diagnosis).

I am not sure the concept of a sub/unconscious mind makes sense. The subconsious, or unconscious, is just the brain we are not conscious of so far as I am concerned.

Now if they had real evidence of psychosomatic causation, that would be different, but the science just isn't there yet.

Bye, Alex

Not sure how you are concluding that, when we have plenty of evidence that increased or chronic stress increase circulating glucocorticoid levels, which definitely can cause disease (insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, hyperlipidemia leading to atherosclerosis, etc.), as well as increasing catecholamines, changing blood clotting factors, increases blood pressure, which can cause heart attack or stroke. A person literally can be scared into a heart attack! It's well known that stress can cause asthma attacks, too. That kind of stress comes from the mind, ergo, the mind definitely can cause disease.

 

[Mij]

What is the difference between the mind and the brain?

 

[Adster]

What is the difference between the mind and the brain?

I'm sure there are many, many answers to that question. For me, the mind is the part that "thinks with a spoken voice", if that makes sense. The part that you can look upon with a greater consciousness and awareness and say "I'm losing my mind!"

 

[alex3619]

So far as I am aware much to most of the information concluding mind can influence cancer or heart disease has been debunked. It used to be considered true, but its some of the psychiatric research that has not stood up to scrutiny. Attitude does not alter outcomes. Behaviour might, but the thats because it alters the biology e.g. eating better.

My statement on fallacy still stands. We are discussing very slightly different things, which is why I went back to the original wording.

To Mij, I intend addressing this question of mind and brain in time, and have discussed it before, but you can find some of my thoughts on it here:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-and-cfs-some-musings-on-a-cool-morning.731/

On anorexia, there is a genetic link. So thoughts plus genes plus environment cause it - its complicated. So its a special case of the reasoning, with extra terms. Its a similar story with bulimia, primary depression, schizophrenia etc. There does not appear to be any hard evidence that thoughts cause disease. When someone is depressed from, for example, grief, I question whether this is a disease and not just normal thought process.

I still assert there does not appear to be a case of disease provably caused by mind/thoughts. Every example appears to follow the psychogenic fallacy. "We don't know what it is, ergo its mental." If something is a fallacy it does not mean the conclusion is necessarily wrong. It means the argument is wrong. If I wanted to say the conclusion was wrong, I would say it was false.

Cortisol is biology. Thoughts may influence it, but ultimately its biochemistry. Indeed, generalizing to most psychosomatic illness, this is a big problem. Most have real physical symptoms and biomarkers. There is an assertion that thoughts can cause this, but no biochemical pathways that show that. The biochemistry does not occur by magic. Those pushing a psychosomatic line, such as in the biopsychosocial movement, need to find the mediating mechanisms to validate their hypotheses. For the most part they simply ignore them. So modifying thoughts can alleviate stress, but its not the whole stress response.

For every case where they can say "The thoughts cause physical changes that cause disease" its possible to say, at least as far as I am aware that "The physical changes possibly cause both disease and mental changes". Most if not all the data is association, they presume causation without evidence and without understanding the physical mechanisms. That is why its a fallacy. Now it could turn out they are right in some specific cases, but thats not yet proven. Every case has to be taken separately. Many psychiatric disorders are now showing to be immunological or neurological, or both.

The trend of the science is to systematically debunk most of psychosomatic medicine. Its one reason why so many psychiatrists are leaving this field in droves. The biopsychosocial movement is trying a different tactic: the science is failing but if its a matter of public policy then it persists. Thats why its Zombie Science.

The thought/disease connection is all based on association, and often association of things that are not well defined. For mind to cause physical disease there has to be mediating mechanisms. Until those are found they are just guessing.

Bye, Alex