POLL: Do you have tenderness at Perrin's point on your left breast (diagnostic for ME/CFS)?

[Rufous McKinney]

they stimulate flow in the wrong direction

the lymph seems like a great mystery. How it could even flow backwards is: well hard to fathom. I understand some basic anatomy of the vascular system.

maybe should read up on this. Plus I think my Qi can flow backwards, too!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Perrin finds standard lymphatic drainage techniques make ME/CFS patients worse

well, just subjected myself to a limited version of some form of lymphatic massage ....I feel so WEIRD. so SWOOSHY.

 

[perrier]

Has anyone here been helped by this Perrin treatment? Thanks.

 

[wigglethemouse]

Has anyone here been helped by this Perrin treatment? Thanks.

Some examples in a Health Rising blog
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...rin-point-ray-perrin-me-cfs-and-fibromyalgia/

 

[PracticingAcceptance]

I went to an osteopath and it was sore at Perrin's point. Previously I had tried to find it myself but I got the spot wrong, so I didn't feel anything. It was more towards my armpit than I thought.

 

[perrier]

Some examples in a Health Rising blog
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...rin-point-ray-perrin-me-cfs-and-fibromyalgia/

Thanks so much wigglethemouse. If he is getting some improvement, why aren't the other researchers in touch with him; he seems to be on his own. The sick are more than desperate.

 

[skandar]

Thanks so much wigglethemouse. If he is getting some improvement, why aren't the other researchers in touch with him; he seems to be on his own. The sick are more than desperate.

Related to this, does anyone else get significant PEM after say, a 30-45 minute massage, whether lymph drainage or any soft tissue massage? I did not notice this during 10 yrs of "mild" ME/CFS, but now with moderate-severe ME, 40 minutes of massage gives significant PEM - 2 full days to recover to "typical" sickness level (20/24 hrs in bed).

Edit: I mention this because it might tell us something additional about the pathophysiology. The trigger for PEM does not require obvious physical (motor), sensory, or psychological energy. But, perhaps pressure on soft tissue creates chemical disequilibrium, so ATP is required for healing/restoration (?)

 

[Pyrrhus]

Related to this, does anyone else get significant PEM after say, a 30-45 minute massage, whether lymph drainage or any soft tissue massage?

I have indeed noticed this, and also found it notable.

The trigger for PEM does not require obvious physical (motor), sensory, or psychological energy.

The sensory stimulation may not seem obvious because it is not one of the 5 common senses. But nerves can be specialized to sense much more than just the 5 common senses. Nerves in muscle tissue can sense anything from extracellular ATP due to micro-tears in the muscle, to inflammatory cytokines released in reparative macrophage infiltration of muscle tissue. Which may or may not be relevant to the ultimate pathophysiology.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Related to this, does anyone else get significant PEM after say, a 30-45 minute massage, whether lymph drainage or any soft tissue massage?

On a related note, you may be interested in this study of passive muscular strain in ME:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0159386

 

[starlily88]

I have pain all the time on left breast where it meets my bone - but my Breast Cancer surgeon and Internist told me I have Chondritis. Never hear of Perrin, interesting.

 

[kewia]

Did I understand this right, taking a ruler left horizontal to your nipple, walking 2-3 cm left and at this point reorient the ruler to vertical direction and walk again 2-3cm in upper direction guides you to perrin's point?

At that position I feel no tenderness, but on other positions. I'm masking if continuous manual therapy might bias the point of interest.

I've hypothyroidism, too. But they told me it was too weak to feel all the symptoms plaguing me.

P.S.:
I still don't understand separating other diseases from ME/CFS when they cause the same set of symptoms. ME/CFS is afaicu a syndrome, a set of symptoms with possibly different underlying reasons.

 

[Violeta]

With respect to what Perrin says about lymphatic flow, and I am specifically thinking of the glymphatics, I see that misalignment of atlas can cause lymphatic congestion.



From atlasprofilax:

"A misalignment of the atlas can lead to continuous pressure on the spinal cord, nerves, blood vessels and lymphatic channels..."

If anyone has anything more specific about drainage of glymphatics with respect to atlas, I would appreciate it.

PS: I have a cyst at that point.

 

[kewia]

I've definitely an impaired lymph system. My muscles at the position of the thoracic duct/subclavian vene are very stiff.
I had hard times, where hardened lumps were located over these points and I woke up with gasping each time I fall into sleep, because of the resulting pressure on the chest, especially on the breath muscles.

But why this location next to the left nipple and not over the thoracic duct/subclavian vene joint?

 

[Violeta]

I've definitely an impaired lymph system. My muscles at the position of the thoracic duct/subclavian vene are very stiff.
I had hard times, where hardened lumps were located over these points and I woke up with gasping each time I fall into sleep, because of the resulting pressure on the chest, especially on the breath muscles.

But why this location next to the left nipple and not over the thoracic duct/subclavian vene joint?

That's a good question.