POLL: Do you have tenderness at Perrin's point on your left breast (diagnostic for ME/CFS)?

[BadBadBear]

unfortunately many people with m.e are tender bloody every where most of my intercostal spaces are tender. so it is not really fair to say that Perrins point is any more or less tender ouch .

I have sore tender points all over, too. But no diagnosis of Fibro. Perrin point is sore but so is everything around it. I don't have a lot of pain if I am just sitting or walking, but using a foam roller can be excruciating. Have been that way since my first major flare in 2012.

 

[pattismith]

I'm sore on both sides. It's a sharp sort of pain, like when I press certain acupressure points on the soles of my feet. I voted for the first option.

idem for me, both sides...But I have much tender points everywhere in my body....
I'm convinced that Fibro probably have many tender points on both sides, and ME/CFS doesn't exclude fibro...

I may also have myopathy, so I don't think that in my case this tender point is 100% associated with a ME/CFS diagnostic...

I am also a bit septical about finding a tender point on a single side, but this could be more specific I guess...

 

[hinterland]

I’ve had a quick prod and not been able to induce a tender point in myself, so doubt self-diagnosis is accurate.

However, I had a physiotherapist induce pain at this point coincidentally when doing a musculoskeletal examination. By my reaction she could see the area was tender, but hadn’t heard of Perrin’s point. It took me a few moments to remember about it myself.

I was examined by Ray Perrin himself many years ago and diagnosed with tender Perrin’s point and other positive signs for ME/CFS. I had about 4 treatment sessions, which were provided free of charge in return for participating in research. The first one I felt some benefit from, clearer vision. The further treatments, one a week, didn’t appear to have any effect.

 

[JaimeS]

I'm sure I'd qualify for fibro... I've had the 19-point tender points test and had every point be tender.

Despite that, my pain on an average day is 2 or 3 of 10 and I don't consider it a significant symptom in terms of its effect on my QOL.

 

[Mary]

idem for me, both sides...But I have much tender points everywhere in my body....
I'm convinced that Fibro probably have many tender points on both sides, and ME/CFS doesn't exclude fibro...

I may also have myopathy, so I don't think that in my case this tender point is 100% associated with a ME/CFS diagnostic...

I am also a bit septical about finding a tender point on a single side, but this could be more specific I guess...

I don't have fibro or any pain in general ..... but definitely have ME/CFS! One of my healthy sisters just took this test and had no pain at all. But another sister who has rheumatoid arthritis but not me/cfs said she's always had pain when pressed on (even before the RA) - we're all over the map! So I'm going to vote yes for one and no for the other.

@Hip - I just tried to add votes for my sisters. I was able to change my vote so I did one yes (for ME/CFS patient with pain - me), and one no (non-ME/CFS patient and no pain), but I need to add another one for non-ME/CFS patients with pain, but it won't let me add the third vote.

 

[Hip]

@Mary, the poll is set up so that you can say whether or not you (the ME/CFS patient) has tenderness when pressing Perrin's point, and optionally whether or not a healthy friend has this tenderness (so you get a maximum of two votes), but there is no way of adding extra ME/CFS patients or healthy friends. I would add the results from your healthy sister, rather than the sister with rheumatoid arthritis, because this poll is asking for results from healthy controls.

However, the fact that your sister with RA has pain when pressing Perrin's point is interesting, because as discussed earlier, in order for this Perrin's point tenderness to be a useful diagnostic for ME/CFS, it would have to absent not only in healthy people, but also absent in people with diseases other than ME/CFS. Otherwise it would not be a unique diagnostic for ME/CFS.

 

[Mary]

Hi @Hip - FWIW, my sister with RA says she has always been like this, even way before the RA started. And she also says it has always hurt wherever she presses and she never understood why doctors were puzzled by that. (we tend to think everyone experiences the world the way we do)

Anyways, I think she would be hard to classify in this instance. It would have been interesting if this had only started in connection with the RA, but it didn't. And hurting all over - that's something else too, though I don't know what.

 

[gabriella17]

I had no idea this was a thing. Just tested myself, and indeed the left hurts!

 

[Hip]

FWIW, my sister with RA says she has always been like this, even way before the RA started. And she also says it has always hurt wherever she presses and she never understood why doctors were puzzled by that.

Before your sister developed rheumatoid arthritis: did she find that there was pain on pressing just at Perrin's point, or were there multiple areas on her body where pain was elicited by pressing? You can get lymph nodes in various places that can be tender.

Enlarged, swollen or tender lymph nodes are quite common in autoimmune diseases, so maybe you sister had some autoimmune processes going on even before the RA had fully manifested.

 

[Mary]

Before your sister developed rheumatoid arthritis: did she find that there was pain on pressing just at Perrin's point, or were there multiple areas on her body where pain was elicited by pressing? You can get lymph nodes in various places that can be tender.

Enlarged, swollen or tender lymph nodes are quite common in autoimmune diseases, so maybe you sister had some autoimmune processes going on even before the RA had fully manifested.

She developed RA about 4 years ago. She's 67 now. She said she had pain when pressing anywhere on her breast, not just the Perrin's point, for as long as she can remember. So we're talking a long time. She did have rheumatic fever as a child - maybe that caused some sort of autoimmune process, but overall she was remarkably healthy until just a few years ago. I think there is some literature about a possible connection between rheumatic fever and RA though it's been awhile since I've looked it up.

 

[Nielk]

I have equal tenderness on both sides.

 

[Hip]

She said she had pain when pressing anywhere on her breast, not just the Perrin's point, for as long as she can remember.

I am not too clear on this, but I think Dr Perrin finds that ME/CFS patients have tenderness just at Perrin's point, rather than the whole breast or breasts. If someone has tenderness throughout the breast area, I am not sure whether that counts or not as tenderness at Perrin's point.

 

[PracticingAcceptance]

I'm going to try again tomorrow... I suspect prodding myself to find it may have made it accidentally tender.

I have boobies - surely this is a more difficult test on women than men? Bit tricky to find the spot with breast fat in the way. Additionally, breasts can be tender because of the time in one's monthly cycle.

Are there any other points I could check?

Often I find myself pressing my sinuses - that's a lymph thing, right?

 

[knackers323]

Id have to say that the left does hurt more than the right

 

[lenora]

Boy, does this entire write-up describe me perfectly!! As described, I also have syrinxes in my spinal cord (Syringomyelia), couple with Arnold-Chiari Malformation. Over 30 yrs. ago when the only way to stop the build-up of fluid in my cord (& into brain) was surgery inserting a shunt into my cord, I awakened from anesthesia with I'd had a mastectomy on my l. side. To this day the severe pain from the l. breast that wraps around under my arm & to the area where the shunt was inserted, is still severe. Back then, it was unimaginable (nerve pain was impossible to treat until gabapentin came along). Anyway, I'm talking suicidal pain. In addition, I have severe (I mean that word when I use it) pain b/c of scoliosis, kyphosis & lordosis. I was wearing braces alternating with casts from the age of 4 yrs. I have everything described and have been diagnosed with ME/FM, also. I'm now in my 70's & have found the FM has become better in some areas, but moved to others. I know a lot about acupressure & have used Osteopaths over the yrs. My neurologist/neurosurgeon know & tell me to do whatever helps. This is like striking gold for me!! Would be interested in anyone else who has had SM, and Arnold-Chiari Repair surgery. Sorry it's long.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I am not too clear on this, but I think Dr Perrin finds that ME/CFS patients have tenderness just at Perrin's point,

This point also corresponds with a major EFT (tapping) point and on my body, would be located on the side, and feels like I am tappng on a rib and not breast tissue. The centimeters described will vary based upon the size of the body in question. You can feel the point quite readily when it is lightly massaged and on me is quite acute.

I am going to do some more EFT using this point.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Enlarged, swollen or tender lymph nodes

I'm right now strongly going to pursue the lymphatic issue in this body. This has always been an obviously compromised component of my EBV-driven (probably) illness. And I've had spinal defects from birth (not severe, but still a bummer). Not POTS. And this spine is not fixable.

The herbs I am taking for my intestines have told my liver to: dump more toxins.
Toxins feel hence circulating. So my guts are better and my Brain and Inflammation are worse.

So I intend to clear this with systematic "EFT" (emotional freedom technique) tapping, work on the Perrin Point daily, and more herbs. And maybe draw some pictures. Visualize this lymph moving .

Wave magic wand.

 

[Hip]

This point also corresponds with a major EFT (tapping) point and on my body

I don't think there is a connection between the Perrin point and EFT.

In terms of treatment, I don't think Perrin focuses on this point, but tries to get the lymph fluid throughout the body moving, using a series of techniques described here:

The Perrin Treatment Protocol

Perrin described six techniques he uses to increase lymphatic flow: specific lymphatic massages, gentle articulatory maneuvers to increase mobility of the spine, soft tissue massage of the muscles, chiropractic adjustments, cranio-sacral techniques to improve the cranio-sacral rhythm, gentle functional techniques to release the pelvic area, and exercises.

Perrin told Whitten that standard lymphatic drainage techniques make ME/CFS patients worse because they stimulate flow in the wrong direction.

After relaxing the upper back muscles and increasing movement in the spine, Perrin attempts to free up the lungs by relaxing the respiratory muscles using a technique called “diaphragmatic release”.

Perrin’s exercises can easily be done at home and consist of gentle twisting of the upper body while the hands are held around the side of the neck, while crossing one’s arms and hugging one’s shoulders, and with the arms folded at the waist. I found that they can significantly decrease tension in the upper body.

Perrin also describes self-massage techniques to aid lymphatic drainage. One simple technique called nasal release can bring about a ‘lasting release”. He recommends sleeping on your side with a cushion between your knees to aid drainage from the brain and spine. He also recommends blue light filters on your computers, tablets. etc. and, staying off those devices before bedtime.

Instead of anti-inflammatories, Perrin prefers alternating warm and cold packs or compresses, particularly in the upper and middle back for about 10 minutes.

Treatment sessions occur once a week for the first 12 weeks, after which they decline in frequency. Severely ill patients may take up to 3 years of treatments, while the moderately ill may take 8-12 months. Getting adequate rest is critical. The very severely ill FM and ME/CFS patients can be difficult to treat if they can’t tolerate being touched.

Note that while the Perrin treatment protocol has helped some ME/CFS patients, others have reported no benefit.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Note that while the Perrin treatment protocol has helped some

Thanks, all that was helpful. I am sickened by all forms of: any stimuilation. Cannot enjoy a massage as I will be sick for days and days after. Its a kinda trap. the Other side seems: like Pangea.

Hence: the route to get at this remains shrouded in a type of FOG.

 

[Hip]

Cannot enjoy a massage as I will be sick for days and days after.

It's interesting that Perrin finds standard lymphatic drainage techniques make ME/CFS patients worse because they stimulate flow in the wrong direction (see above quote).