POLL: Do You Get PEM From Physical Exercise? Are You Sensitive To Lactate Probiotics Or Prebiotics?

[Hip]

You might be interested in a study about Lactobacillus rhamnosus altering the function of GABA in the brain.

I found that Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium probiotics were helpful for my severe generalized anxiety disorder; perhaps this modulation of the GABA receptors may help explain why.

Although the study's results are complex: they found in a mouse that the Lactobacillus rhamnosus probiotic:

Increases GABA-A receptor expression in the hippocampus
Decreases GABA-A receptor expression in the prefrontal cortex and amygdala

Increases GABA-B receptor expression the cingulate cortex and prelimbic cortex
Decreases GABA-B receptor expression in the hippocampus, amygdala, and locus coeruleus

Most importantly, the study found that:

the neurochemical and behavioral effects were not found in vagotomized mice, identifying the vagus as a major modulatory constitutive communication pathway between the bacteria exposed to the gut and the brain.

In other words, when they cut the vagus nerve in the mice, the effects of this probiotic on the brain disappeared.

So this means the changes in GABA receptor expression induced by the Lactobacillus probiotic were not due to any factors (such as lactate or perhaps LPS) that get into the blood and then affect the brain; but rather these changes were caused by nerve signals sent from the gut to the brain along the vagus nerve.

There has recently been some interesting papers published on how this vagus nerve gut-to-brain pathway has significant effects in the brain. It is the vagus nerve which, when it detects infection/inflammation in the body, triggers sickness behavior in the brain. Michael VanElzakker posits that this sickness behavior response underpins ME/CFS (he thinks the vagus itself may be chronically infected, thus causing the sickness behavior signal to be constantly sent to the brain).

What I think is likely happening with probiotics is that by crowding out the bad, pro-inflammatory bacteria in the gut, probiotics will reduce overall gut inflammation, and this in turn reduces the inflammatory sickness behavior signal sent to the brain via the vagus nerve. So then the brain responds by reducing sickness behavior (ie, reducing fatigue, brain fog, etc), which makes people feel better.

But possibly in some ME/CFS patients, who may have some mild immune suppression, the introduction of Lactobacillus probiotics might inadvertently worsen gut inflammation (or cause a bad bacteria die off, releasing lots of highly inflammatory LPS), thereby worsening sickness behavior, and thus increasing ME/CFS symptoms.

This an alternative (or additional) explanation to why lactate-producing probiotics can worsen the symptoms of some ME/CFS patients. Some probiotics might conceivably worsen gut inflammation in some ME/CFS patients, and when the vagus detects this worsened inflammation, it signals to the brain to ramp up sickness behavior.

 

[ahmo]

Some probiotics might conceivably worsen gut inflammation

The conversation on the resistant starch thread suggests that initially some inflammation is a good sign w/ probiotics, otherwise nothing's happening. So maybe we have to be prepared for short-term increased inflammation.

 

[Hip]

The conversation on the resistant starch thread suggests that initially some inflammation is a good sign w/ probiotics, otherwise nothing's happening. So maybe we have to be prepared for short-term increased inflammation.

I guess that for some people, there might conceivably be a die-off reaction when they start taking probiotics, but from what I am hearing from ME/CFS patients who are sensitive to lactate-producing probiotics (or to the prebiotics that feed them), these probiotics are really poison to their system.

What those who are sensitive to lactate-producing probiotics think?

 

[snowathlete]

Bifidobacterium helps me (mainly my ulcerative colitis but it is tied in with my MECFS at least in terms of inflammation overlap) but when I took a multi strain lactobacillus / streptococcus probiotic it made me noticeably worse.

 

[Hip]

when I took a multi strain lactobacillus / streptococcus probiotic it made me noticeably worse.

Did you persist with this probiotic, just to see if your feeling worse might have been a temporary die off or re-adjustment reaction? Or did you find the worsening of symptoms too problematic to want to continue?

I always find worsening of symptoms makes me stop taking whatever medication triggered it very quickly, unless I have it on good authority that it is necessity to go through the bad period before you start feeling better.

 

[adreno]

I agree that pro/prebiotics are unlikely to be significantly helpful without inducing some degree of inflammation in the beginning. But the immune activation from effective probiotics (e.g, CB) are very different from the lactate overload from LABs.

 

[Crux]

I guess that for some people, there might conceivably be a die-off reaction when they start taking probiotics, but from what I am hearing from ME/CFS patients who are sensitive to lactate-producing probiotics (or to the prebiotics that feed them), these probiotics are really poison to their system.

What those who are sensitive to lactate-producing probiotics think?

I haven't had any sort of beneficial inflammation or good die-off from probiotics and concentrated prebiotics.
They have felt like poison, I must admit.

There are so many probiotics and prebiotics right on and in our foods ; I don't feel it necessary to take more.

Of course each one is distinct in their microbiome. If someone has taken many courses of antibiotics, or had years of IBD, diarrhea, etc., then they may need to supplement.

 

[Sidereal]

I wonder if bad reactions to lactobacilli, yoghurt etc. just means one is lacking other species that convert lactate into SCFAs.

 

[Crux]

I wonder if bad reactions to lactobacilli, yoghurt etc. just means one is lacking other species that convert lactate into SCFAs.

I believe this may be true for many, but personally, I've tried bifidos, even a single strain, and still had painful reactions.

About a year ago, I melted a couple of tbl. of a good grassfed butter, as an off the cuff experiment to see if extra butyrate would make a difference. Sometime later, I let out a butyric acid smelling toot. I guessed that I was replete with butyrate?

I realize I may be in a minority, because, I've stuffed my gob with probiotics and fermented foods for decades. It's only been this last year that I've realized this too much of a good thing, thing.

There are lactate utilizers, but I couldn't find ones for sale. I think they can be overwhelmed if one is overproducing lactate. The liver clears about 70% of lactate,( I've read), so a bum liver can also be a factor.

Then there's the D-lactate problem.... It's the one that can easily cross the BBB, and trash the brain and nerves.

 

[Sidereal]

I believe this may be true for many, but personally, I've tried bifidos, even a single strain, and still had painful reactions.

I have terrible reactions to single strain LAB or bifidos. Bifidos produce lactate but I don't think that's the whole story.

 

[Sidereal]

There are lactate utilizers, but I couldn't find ones for sale.

Are you reading @adreno's Clostridium butyricum thread?

 

[Valentijn]

I wonder if bad reactions to lactobacilli, yoghurt etc. just means one is lacking other species that convert lactate into SCFAs.

My reaction to yogurt is quite a bit worse than my reaction to non-bacterial dairy products with a similar composition.

 

[Crux]

I have terrible reactions to single strain LAB or bifidos. Bifidos produce lactate but I don't think that's the whole story.

In an ideal gut, bifidos can cross feed lactate utilizers and butyrate producers, but I have no such gut. With LABs , well, I may as well drink acid.

I have looked at adreno's CB thread; it seems that CB isn't a major lactate utilizer (?), but it doesn't seem to be much of a lactate producer either. Good.

I can see the use for it if one is low in butyrate, and I see some folks are having good results.

 

[Sidereal]

In an ideal gut, bifidos can cross feed lactate utilizers and butyrate producers, but I have no such gut. With LABs , well, I may as well drink acid.

Right, when a normal gut is supplemented with LAB and bifidobacteria there is no spike in fecal lactate because it gets converted to SCFA by other bacteria.

 

[Sidereal]

My reaction to yogurt is quite a bit worse than my reaction to non-bacterial dairy products with a similar composition.

Interesting. What dairy products are you able to tolerate?

 

[Crux]

Right, when a normal gut is supplemented with LAB and bifidobacteria there is no spike in fecal lactate because it gets converted to SCFA by other bacteria.

Lactate is also used for ATP production...wouldn't that be nice...

 

[Valentijn]

Interesting. What dairy products are you able to tolerate?

A Dutch pudding with a thinner consistency (vla). I can get milder problems from dairy, but those are mostly resolved with digestive enzymes.

 

[adreno]

it seems that CB isn't a major lactate utilizer (?)

Which are the major lactate utilizers?

 

[Crux]

Which are the major lactate utilizers?

The two that I've come across most often are : Eubacterium hallii, and Anaerostipes caccae.

There are probably some better articles, but here are a couple :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC522113/

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1574-6941.2008.00595.x/pdf

 

[adreno]

The two that I've come across most often are : Eubacterium hallii, and Anaerostipes caccae.

There are probably some better articles, but here are a couple :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC522113/

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1574-6941.2008.00595.x/pdf

Thanks. I saw a rat study that showed CB utilizes only D-lactate, not L. This seems very common. I have high D-lactate, so this still might be helpful to me. Unfortunately, as you say, the ones mentioned in those articles are not available commercially.