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Please educate me on B12

Peyt

Senior Member
Messages
678
Location
Southern California
Hi All,
I ordered some HydroxyB12 after learning that according to my SNP's (COMT ++ , VDR +/-) I can benefit from Hydroxy or Adenosyl B12. I am +/- on both MTHFR and MTRR.
This is the brand I purchased:
http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Orthomolecular-Research-Hydroxy-Tablets/dp/B00457FZYA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409821283&sr=8-1&keywords=hydroxy b12

Which has the following written on the label:
Hydroxyocobalamin 1000 mcg / 16667%

The first time that I took it, within minutes I was yawning. This is a nice thing for an over-methylator because us
over-methylators have excess dopamine and norepenephrine and have tough time sleeping... But off course I don't want to be sleepy during the day so I started taking it at night along with my magnesium powder(which also induces sleep for me).... Anyways, within 2-3 days I started getting alot of pain in my ear. It felt like a ear infection but no fever... and could not tell if it's from this supplement or Mollyebdenum which I had started around the same time.... So I stopped both and waited a week..... then I took only the Hydroxy B12 2 days ago.... I slept well that night, but the next day I noticed my muscles felt tired and heavy... figured may be the dose (1000mcg) is too much so I skipped the B12 that night. But the day after(which was yesterday) I started building up this pressure in my head, under my left eye and it turned into a full blown headache with feeling of nausea in the afternoon which forced me to leave work early.... took some Tylonal and Nicianmede which always helps me in these situations, and slept....And it took about 6 hours before the pain finally cleared up.

So I now would like some education on B12 please. I know that I am low on B12(even my blood tests showed it)... But I am not sure how to handle this... Should I try the Adenosyl type and see how that works? Should I take a much smaller dose of the HydroxyB12? Should I be taking the B12 with Methyfolate or another supplement? Please help if you can...My 23andme Profile is attached. . thanks so much,
Peyt
 

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Peyt

Senior Member
Messages
678
Location
Southern California
Oh Btw, here are the supplements I am taking for a few months without any side effects:

EPO 500mg (2 to 3 times x day) for Pyrolle disorder
Sunflower Lecithin 1200mg(2 to 3 x day) .........for BHMT ---this one I recently started back
Vit D / K2 (5000 IU/ 200mcg) (once a day)------Low Vt D
Biotin (500mg ) once a day
P5P (150mg) once a day -----------Pyrolle Disorder
Niacinamide ---- (500mg x 2 per day) ------ Overmethylation or COMT++
Manganese (10mg x1 per day) ---
Yucca ------(2 caps x3 times per day) for CBS++
Zinc Picolinate (50mg x1 ) --- For low zinc
Betain HCL ----(650 x 3 per day) with meals for better digestion
Protease Enzyme Supplement (2caps per each meal) --- For better digestion
L- Ornithine- 500mg (2-3 times a day) --- Helps with headaches and blood circulation

I did try a product by NOW called Folic Acid which also had a small amount of B12 as Cyanocobalamin, which I was able to tolerate for 2 weeks with great success. I felt my depression was lifted and I was feeling great... after that I started getting headaches (similar to the one I described above) so I stopped it. Never tried Methylfolate
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Hi Peyt. I can't answer your specific questions. The best I can do is refer you to the guide in my signature. here you'll find what Fred has to say about the different B's. One thing that's changed, which I haven't revised, is his current suggestion to take AdB12 on a day without MB12, so that each is absorbed better. He's talking about doses of 50mg AdB12, which would be more than a starting dose.
 

Peyt

Senior Member
Messages
678
Location
Southern California
Thanks so much Ahmo,
Well I am looking at pages 25-26 of Fredd's guide which talks about Hydroxy B12, and correct me if I am wrong, but it does not sound like he likes Hydroxy B12 very much! :) ... makes me think maybe I should try the ADB12 instead.... The reason I picked Hydroxy b12 is because it was one of the 2 choices for someone with COMT ++ and VDR +/- according to Yasko's chart on choosing B12, but I also have the choice to use ADB12, so I guess I can try that one.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Hi Peyt. As far as Fred is concerned, HyB12 is a useless work-around. It seems to work for some...whether it's the best choice, or is merely just barely getting the job done, I can't say, I don't have a science mind.AdB12 is another thing entirely. And I didn't appreciate this until quite recently. It acts in making ATP, which is a separate function from the methylation cycle. I've looked in my notes for further info re ADB12, but found nothing else. It came up in a thread, I asked for clarification re was ATP separate from Methylation Cycle, and got an emphatic YES!

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b-12-the-hidden-story.142/page-161#post-485465
Folate insufficiency increases inflammation. It is spoken of in research that the body uses it’s own “triage” system for allocating folate. When healing starts on one layer it appears that all the folate needed for that level is allocated to it and reduces folate at other levels which increases the inflammation in those other layers. At least that is the way I would describe it based on my own experience of periodic folate insufficiency hundreds of times. Chewing a b12 tablet and swallowing reduces the amount of b12 to about 1% from an achievable (with Enzymatic Therapy) of 25-33% (max range).

The theory that HyCbl should work better for some genetics may come from massively reduced effectivness. It doesn’t cause all those nasty side effects of healing like low potassium symptoms, low folate symptoms and in reference to nerves, the increased feeling of pains that freshly stimulated nerves that hadn’t been working have. When an area comes back from not feeling, what is felt is the damage; with shooting pains, intense steady pain, painful tingling, more awareness of the shrinkage and therefore tightness of the muscles and all that. Again, I can only speak from repeated experience. Active healing can be painful. Shutting down the damaged nerves reduces the pain. What I said to myself 11 years ago is that the whole thing is counter intuitive. Many people say “what awful side effects” from the increased pains, the misery of low potassium and increased inflammation and pain from donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency and make sure that they never again do what could heal them over a period of time.

I don’t know of anybody who has healed from FMS/CFS/ME doing it with HyCbl. Many have some improvements and other things get worse. In every study done on HyCbl (and they are not designed to actually produce healing) there is about a 2/3 chance that a subject could have some improvement and 1/3 have no improvement at all for the studied symptoms. I have been offering information here and debugging my hypothesis and protocol for 5 or 6 years now. In all that time I have not seen anybody at all announce that they have corrected their problems to the point of returning to work, walking 5 miles daily, climbing a 2000 foot vertical hill, get back into decent aerobic condition and get their muscles restored. So whatever people interpreting the tests to mean advise on HyCbl doesn’t appear to work.. I can only chalk up all your apparent contradictions to various ways things work partially or not at all. The whole thing is complicated.

Where the people are having results the conversation changes all the time as they no longer have a problem with one symptoms set and turn their attention to others. That is why the active b12s and folate lead to need for more folate, need for potassium, need for a dozen other things, until it gets down to making adjustments in b1, b2 and b3 because those are what lead to specific predictable results. HyCbl rarely leads to solving a succession of half a dozen things or more. So far nobody can describe a healing path that starts with HyCbl through the flags of healing being turned on to secondary and tertiary insufficiency or over sufficiency symptoms. There are no predictions that can be made ( nervous system turning on, low potassium and folate shortly after starting) and predictions of what works for that after the initial things are cleared. And of course these are multi substance problems. In my opinion it works out better if one thinks in terms of partial methylation block, methyltrap and partial ATP block. HyCbl doesn’t generally correct these and can even cause them over time. MeCbl and cofactors can often correct these if given a chance. Damage can take years to heal if at all for some damages.


With HyCbl it is very much a percentage thing. It works to a greater or lesser extent for some symptoms for often some while, and also dependent upon perhaps a dozen other factors. For every one of us a major part of the problem is finding an effective balance. HyCbl does cause side effects. And just like folates and other cobalamins, it happen by some number of levels, frequently giving paradoxical looking results. So with HyCbl it does clearly work on some levels for some duration for some people. It is also quite probable to have these contradictory results. And so much depends also upon dose of B1, B2 and B3 which can ramp up the low potassium effect and donut hole folate insufficiency with unpredictable results on healing. There are no hard and fast answers to anything. If one takes a look at a lot of research on HyCbl a large range of possible result occur. For some tiny percentage of people their responses are virtually identical, at least for the duration of an x-month study, to MeCbl or AdoCbl. The question is “why?”. What makes such a person predictable in that response. What happens over time to the other handful of “triage” levels some of which will be working some not. Rich thought that a lot of that has to do with cofactors, like B1, B2, B3 and many others. Whether MeCbl or AdoCbl work at all or not is whole dependent upon cofactors. Lack of an effective folate for one’s body can completely prevent MeCbl from working as can lack of AdoCbl or lack of Vit D.

HyCbl typically has a lot of effect on a few of the universe of MeCbl/AdoCbl symptoms, less effect on a bunch more and no effect or negative effect on others, and that varies from person to person. In studies, the symptoms studied have about 1/3 of subjects not responding with changes in the study symptoms, and 2/3 responding to some degree. However, when looking at the whole person with perhaps hundreds of symptoms, HyCbl hasn’t demonstrated any substantial ability to allow many people to say “I’m largely recovered from FMS/CFS and am going back to work and living my life”. That doesn’t mean it has no effects. It has partial and contradictory responses and perhaps complete responses on a few symptoms.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...al-5-mthf-versus-egg-yolks.31498/#post-483883

One thing I would do in your position is check out some timing issues. After 10+ years of trying all sports of scheduling and doses of MeCbl and AdoCbl, I find I get the best results if I take MeCbl and AdoCbl separately. Currently I take AdoCbl once a week at 30-50mg sublingual to get CNS penetration. I take it over a 4-5 hour period using 1/2 a cap of Anabol Naturals at as time along the lower lip and gum. This gets it penetrating the nervous system. On that I maintain equilibrium and there is no noticeable startup effect from being “low” each week. I find that the MeCbl and AdoCbl each work better when just the one thing is the majority present in blood. I skip one dose of MeCbl that day. See the MeCbl/AdoCbl ratios post from a week ago or so.

... Are you taking glutathione, MaxGL, NAC, whey or other glutathione promoting items, folic acid, folinic acid, green drinks and probably some other things, like Metaformin? Also B1 > 20mg daily, B2. 30-40mg daily or B3 > 100mg daily, CyCbl or HyCbl.. These all may be hindering the methylation for one reason or another. The methylation end of things reacts very quickly and is very sensitive to all sorts of things.

http://phoenixrising.me/archives/18836 Aug 27, 2014

Something on NO/ONOO in Cort’s blog today (on Dr Cheney’s treatment protocol):

Dr. Cheney recently noted that hydroxyB-12 was voted the single best treatment for CFS in a large survey of CFS cases (> 1000). Neither cyanoB-12 nor methylB-12 have the properties of hydroxyB-12 as far as detoxification and redox control and cyanoB-12 cannot be used at high dose as it carries cyanide.

It is also the form of B-12 used in the famous study done by Dr. Newbold, a NYC psychiatrist, that demonstrated neuropsychiatric benefits at high doses (60 mg per day SQ/IM) over a six-month period. Newbold’s late 1990’s study showed 60mg of daily HB12 helped with a variety of mental illnesses. B-12 plays a major role in Dr. Cheney’s protocol

The benefits Dr. Newbold saw were impressive and led him to speculate that B-12 plays a central role in all psychiatric diseases regardless of type (as well as brain trauma). B-12 also supports the methylation cycle, a significant portion of which is controlled by the redox state of the cell.

Dr. Cheney believes proper methylation is key to good brain functioning and sleep. Hydroxy-B12 is the only form of B-12 that can control redox via its binding to nitric oxide (NO). (The term redox state is often used to describe the balance of GSH/GSSG, NAD+/NADH and NADP+/NADPH.

It also includes processes involving free radicals). When hydroxyl-B12 binds to NO it eliminates the beginning of the NO-ONOO cycle which Martin Pall believes occurs in ME/CFS. NO binding in the presence of elevated superoxide prevents the formation of peroxynitrite (ONOO) – allegedly the most dangerous of all free radicals. It also binds to CN (Cyanide): hydroxyB-12 is the treatment of choice for cyanide poisoning.

HydroxyB-12 binds the nitrogen residues of toxins in the blood and carries them out in the urine and skin. Cheney believes that redox control may be dose-dependent in the same way that treating cyanide poisoning is. Too little hydroxylB12 and you die of cyanide poisoning.

This reflects Dr. Cheney’s belief that the importance of B12 in ME/CFS has nothing to do with B-12 blood levels (aka nutrition) and everything to do with scavenging toxins (i.e.. free radicals). Just as you would never measure B-12 blood levels before using it to counteract cyanide poisoning, he would never measure B-12 blood levels before using it to affect free radicals.

HydroxyB-12 is being used to affect the redox state and therefore the methylation cycle; it has nothing to do with B-12 levels.

Read more: The Cheney Chronicles #2: His Protocol For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/2014/08/25/cheney-chronicles-protocol-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/
 

Peyt

Senior Member
Messages
678
Location
Southern California
Okay so Fredd doesn't like it but Dr. Cheney does!... hmm.... I actually prefer a chart like Yasko has which correlates the types of B12's to the SNPs... Anyways, today I decided to bite the bullet and make an appointment with a Dr. I picked a M.D. from mthfr.net . Her name is Dr. Sheila George. She is in California every other month and just happened to be here next week. So I will see her next week. I just hope this is her area of specialty. If anyone has heard of her and has a review please post it here. Thanks