Perrin/lymph drainage/massage: makes sense or not?

[GracieJ]

This is a cool thread to me for two reasons: I have CFS, which I believe happens due to toxicity (a long process of cause and effect) and I am a massage therapist that practices lymph drainage massage. Having no colleagues who knew the protocol, I taught another therapist what to do on me. Wow, was it effective. I had mental clarity and a feeling of lightness for two days that was unbelievable.

There is a lot of back and forth discussion about the validity of Perrin's work. I believe he is on to something solid, and it looks to me like another piece of the blind men and the elephant -- one part is not the whole, but no reason exists to argue. I use craniosacral also, both on clients and as a client. It seems like something that would hardly work, but is highly effective for many things. It was my breakthrough for cluster migraines, lasting 3-4 months at a time. MONTHS, yes, you read that right. I would love to specialize in cfs clients, but am single and need to support myself, so have to stay with a more generic clientele. Anyway. Just wanted to let you all know that these are great therapies from either end, and if you can learn the DIY techniques in conjunction with other cleansing protocols, they are especially effective.

 

[Jenny]

I've been having weekly lymphatic drainage massage (Perrin technique) for 7 months now. So I've had about 32 massages. About 75% of the time after each massage I feel better for a couple of days. 25% of the time I don't feel any different. The two things that seem to help are the back massage, which is very relaxing, and the craniosacral work, which makes me feel more normal generally. I also do the self treatments three times a day.

It seems that the worse I feel, the more effect it has. I've had some goodish weeks recently (as I do in warm weather) and the treatment hasn’t seemed to have much immediate effect.

I've been rating how I feel on a daily basis for years, so I can directly compare how I am now with how I was previously. So comparing the same periods in the last two years (this is because I have much seasonal variation in symptoms) and scoring on a scale 0.25 – 10 where 10 is best:

Nov 2010-May 2011 Mean 3.36, range 0.25-7.0

Nov 2011-May 2012 Mean 3.98, range 0.25-8.0

So 7 months treatment has given me about a 6% improvement. I didn’t score anything more than 7 in the first period, but had 2 days of 8 in the second. My general pattern continues to fluctuate wildly for no particular reason – I can be 0.25 for 4-5 days, then dramatically improve to 6 or 7, and vice versa.

I’ve also been doing lots of other things since Nov 2010 – valaciclovir, methylation supplements, B12 injections, meditation, lots of other supplements, and just started Isoprinosine.

Is it worth continuing the Perrin treatment? It’s £45 for a 25 min session.

Jenny

 

[aquariusgirl]

Yeah. expensive. At some point, we all need to get our lymph going.. esp. if we are detoxing. I have paid $90 for 60-90 mins of craniosacral/lymph work on the head...I love it.. but can't afford it regularly....I guess only u can do the cost benefit analysis.

I heard some practitioner at autism 1 say that the autistic kids have lymph like butter....

 

[aquariusgirl]

Graceiallen...which part of the country are you in? PM me if you like. thanks.

 

[GracieJ]

Graceiallen...which part of the country are you in? PM me if you like. thanks.

I am in Utah, greater Salt Lake area.

 

[aquariusgirl]

ok....thanks.. guess i wont' be consulting u then..!

 

[Jenny]

Update - was going to give up after 35 weekly sessions - Raymond Perrin agreed I should have had more improvement over 8 months. But then he felt my head and said cranial lymph flow was still very bad and he should be able to get this to improve, so I'm going to alternate seeing him with seeing my regular practitioner so that he can get more of an idea of what's going on with the cranial flow. I think I'll give it just a few more months. Not sure if this is a good idea or not!

Jenny

 

[GracieJ]

So sorry, Jenny. Lymph drainage in general should help just about anyone feel better, it is a gentle way to detox. Will have to read more on Perrin. Hmmm.

 

[Jenny]

Raymond Perrin has funding for a project investigating the validity of his lymphatic congestion diagnostic techniques.

http://www.theperrinclinic.com/2013.pdf

The only congestion sign I have is poor cranial lymph flow, and 55 sessions of his treatment over one year unfortunately didn't help. But it's good that he's trying to put some aspects of his theory to the test.

Jenny

 

[sianrecovery]

I did Perrin regularly for two and half years, and I saw some benefits. I stopped about six months ago, partly because of money, partly because I had a frozen shoulder and couldnt do the self massage. Have noticed no difference.

 

[golden]

I did Perrin regularly for two and half years, and I saw some benefits. I stopped about six months ago, partly because of money, partly because I had a frozen shoulder and couldnt do the self massage. Have noticed no difference.

Hi,

do you mean when you stopped the treatments the benefits you noticed during the treatments stopped?

 

[golden]

I am chuffed to find this thread and that Rich also came to my conclusion that Low Glutathione, which I have been tested for and have, can cause a poor lymphatic system.

I see that his method is not to try to supplement with Glutathione, but treat the methylation block which should naturally raise the Glutathione levels.

Does anyone know of a UK lab I can get the 'Rich approved' methylation panel test from AND without needing a Doctors permission...

I only linked to an American site which was complicated.

 

[maryb]

Taken from the Research Project Details....
Recruitment

100 participants will take part in the study which will consist of CFS/ME patients and

healthy controls.

Groupings

Group 1 will be around 50 volunteers who have been selected consecutively by the research

assistant from a larger group who have been diagnosed by consultant in the NHS and

confirmed as suffering from CFS/ME using an informal interview screening tool based on the

NICE guidelines.

Group 2 will be around 50 healthy controls again selected consecutively from a larger group

of volunteers by the research assistant and who have been matched for age and gender with

the patient group and confirmed as not suffering from CFS/ME using an informal interview

screening tool based on the NICE guidelines.


And therein lies the problem even before it starts - waste of time and money.

 

[golden]

sorry maryb,

I can see several problems, as i usually do with most 'scientific' studies...

but can you point out which one in particular ... the NICE guidelines is it?

thanks

 

[Jenny]

Taken from the Research Project Details....
Recruitment

100 participants will take part in the study which will consist of CFS/ME patients and

healthy controls.

Groupings

Group 1 will be around 50 volunteers who have been selected consecutively by the research

assistant from a larger group who have been diagnosed by consultant in the NHS and

confirmed as suffering from CFS/ME using an informal interview screening tool based on the

NICE guidelines.

Group 2 will be around 50 healthy controls again selected consecutively from a larger group

of volunteers by the research assistant and who have been matched for age and gender with

the patient group and confirmed as not suffering from CFS/ME using an informal interview

screening tool based on the NICE guidelines.


And therein lies the problem even before it starts - waste of time and money.

Given the problems with diagnosis, and the fact that Ray would have had problems finding a consultant who would use anything other than the NICE guidelines, I think this will be a worthwhile study. At least some of Group 1 will be likely to have 'true' ME and it will be interesting to see if more of that group display Perrin's signs. If they do, then it could be argued that his signs indicate something, though not necessarily ME as defined more rigorously.

 

[sianrecovery]

Hi,

do you mean when you stopped the treatments the benefits you noticed during the treatments stopped?

No - I mean that I noticed no worsening of my health when I stopped. When I started Perrin, and this is why I think its potent, I had a really bad herx, for a while. I like to think that doing it as faithfully as I did and for as long it played a part in kickstarting my lymph system again. However, the real gains I've made seem to have come with thyroid hormones and antibiotics. Since I've been more physically active since then, I think my isuses with lymph are less pressing anyway.
I do think that when you are bedbound, or have a very low level of activity due to ME, Perrin is a good place to start getting things moving again - that was my experience. The practitioner I saw mostly was great, and had made full recovery herself, and that helped give me hope. And I like Ray. But I diddnt at any time think that method was going to 'cure' me by itself.

 

[golden]

Thanks sianrecovery Also pleased to hear of the thyroid/antibiotics helping you.

For me, I actually think that I have a faulty lymphatic system. When people say I had a massage and it gave me a relapse, this is what I experienced. This obviously doesn't happen to healthy people.

The Perrin technuque has never given me a relapse but has made me feel worse but it has always been manageable. I think the fact that the massage is all ONE way is the reason.

Plus there is a lot wrong with the head neck connection and this stops lymph draining properly.

I tried a rebounder and it gave me a relapse.

I am going nowhere with thus, just mentioning it!

 

[golden]

Given the problems with diagnosis, and the fact that Ray would have had problems finding a consultant who would use anything other than the NICE guidelines, I think this will be a worthwhile study. At least some of Group 1 will be likely to have 'true' ME and it will be interesting to see if more of that group display Perrin's signs. If they do, then it could be argued that his signs indicate something, though not necessarily ME as defined more rigorously.

Even the more rigorous definition means that symptoms which can be identical to M.E. but which are not tested for eg: systemic candidate, heavy metal toxicity, lyme disease, thyroid problems etc... means that these diseases will be in the group.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I tried a rebounder and it gave me a relapse.

Did you start start using your rebounder really, really slowly? The instructions (which I have lost) for my rebounder said to start with just a very few minutes of gentle bouncing such that your feet never left the surface. The rate of increase was also to be gradual.

I do like mine. It has not made me better, but it has reduced my upper back and shoulder pain. I think that it has prevented leg and food cramps from getting worse. I also seem to just feel a little better when i use it first thing in the morning.

I do realize that we all differ and that you may have crashed no matter how you used your rebounder.

 

[golden]

I didn't go hell for leather on it little bluestem, but this is one of the most frustrating things about M.E. is knowing for certain anything!