Paradoxical Folate Deficiency/Insufficiency and Edema

[ahmo]

@dannybex This problem w/ vegetable folinic is very real for me. I've had to cut out all green veggies.

 

[dannybex]

@dannybex This problem w/ vegetable folinic is very real for me. I've had to cut out all green veggies.

Interesting @ahmo . Do you know if you have the MTHFS mutation that RIch suggested Freddd might have?


Also, is it just green veggies -- and/or does it make a difference if they're organic or not? And lastly, do you know if it could be something like the higher oxalate content of green veggies?

 

[ahmo]

@dannybex If I'm reading my Promethease results correctly, I do have MTHFS. I've consistently used carrots as juice and putting the pulp into my soup. They're hi ox, or at least med. high. And the green veggie response is regardless of whether organic or not. I just tried a small amount of pea sprouts, good for DAO enzyme, but even this small addition caused a reaction. Carrot is the only veg I'm using. My histamine and sulfur intolerances rule out everything else.

 

[Johnmac]

I started with 800 mcg and quickly developed symptoms of paradoxical folate deficiency. Within a couple weeks I was taking around 4 mg of Metafolin a day. I've been taking around that much for well over a year, and during that time I've felt healthier than I have in the past 20 years.

Is it safe? Deplin is the prescription form of metafolin which is prescribed in doses of 15mg or 30mg a day. So there have been studies done, and I'm not aware of any dangers taking those high doses. That said, I don't think we have any long term studies. For me, I think it is more unsafe not to take it. My nerves were deteriorating. Numbness was becoming more frequent and more severe. I used to catch every cold that came around and it would put me in bed with respiratory infections for a week 3 or 4 times a year. I got sick once last year, and I wasn't bed bound. So I think my immune system is more or less like that of most people now. We all have to make our own decisions about what we do with our bodies and what we put in them. For me, taking higher doses of Metafolin is a pretty easy one.

Curious to know how you are doing now.

I hit a wall with the Freddd protocol every time. It's great for a while, then I crash: Weakness, fatigue, huge abdominal tension, inability to handle work, "don't like anything", "don't want anything", jittery, anxiety, anhedonia, no concentration, cold hands & feet.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these mostly aren't paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms. Also, I do not have the common PFD symptoms Fred lists - e.g. angular chelitis, peeling skin...

LCF appears cause this syndrome more than the other DQs, however it can also happen without LCF.

When this happens I take at least 3g of potassium chloride p day (sometimes 6g), but that doesn't seem to solve the problem.

So as I am on the same starting dose of m-folate as you, I might give increased m-folate a shot.

Did you increase your mB12 at the same time? I.e. does the mB12 need to "keep up" with the m-folate?

Thanks...

 

[skwag]

@Johnmac,

How am I doing now? Not quite as good as when I wrote the post you quoted, but I haven't crashed. I'm currently taking 4-5 mg folate, but was taking 8-9mg for a while months ago.

I ran into some problems after a course of antibiotics which somehow really screwed with my electrolytes. Then I had a few trials of vaping b12 which did not work out for me. Add in a lot of stress from recent personal events, and I think my recent downturn is well explained.

All that said, I think I am still doing much better than before I started the protocol.

Most of your symptoms are familiar to me. I've got some now. I think you are right that these are not paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms. When i get these symptoms I stat looking at
1) MB12 dosage - try to increase it
2) AdB12 - try taking 20-30 mg
3) electrolytes - magnesium - this is the one I can't seem to get enough of recently

Increasing the folate is also worth a shot IMO, but I suspect something else is going on too.

I do try to increase the B12 as folate is increased, but it is nowhere near an exact science. My B12 intake is limited by how much time I have in the day to suck on sublinguals. Generally I take 5 to 10 mg these days. I would take more if it were easier to do.

I hope this helps.

 

[Freddd]

Hi @skwag -- I'm confused. I know Freddd's talked about this many times, but I can't find his original description/explanation. I thought 'paradoxical folate deficiency' was a result of folic acid and/or folinic acid (or folate-rich vegetables in his case) causing these 'paradoxical' symptoms. ???

Hi Dannytbex,

Somewhere around is a description of at least 4 or 5 varieties. The "donut hole" for instance. Many research studies speak of "internal triage levels". Basically, epithelial tissues react sooner than muscles or nerves and so on. One or two layers can have working methylation and the others have deficiency symptoms. That is a "partial methylation block" and is also appears paradoxical because an amount of methylfolate may start healing on one level and make worse deficiency symptoms on another layer. Also, a similar thing with folic acid or in some folinic or veggie folate or methyltrap. Methyltrap can look paradoxical since it is a b12 deficiency symptoms suddenly switching to folate deficiency symptoms even though folate tests may indicate plenty of folate. And since it happens in levels, even if they are measuring some cellular folate it may not be the right cells. I believe that if you search PFD1, PFD2 etc you may find it, ie http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-stages-of-methylation-and-healing.21725/page-6

 

[Johnmac]

Thanks @skwag .

I asked @Freddd about my crash syndrome recently. He gave some pretty interesting replies. Rather than try & paraphrase them I'll refer you to the thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...folate-those-that-have-ramped-up.34764/page-3

As soon as my liquid carnitine arrives I'll give what he suggests a shot.

In case it's relevant to you too...

I will of course experiment with the dosages as you suggest, also.