OAT - Organic Acid Testing - is it useful?

[Jenny TipsforME]

Another resource that Mendus sometimes uses is cognitive tests @Hip http://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com/

If a supplement may benefit brainfog do a few baseline cognitive tests and then test once a week while taking supplement under similar conditions (same time, eaten similar). Test again off the supplement to check for learning effects.

It is also possible, but difficult, to do a crude blind placebo testing at home if you find a substance that appears similar and someone else labels one jar A one B and they don't tell you which is which.

I attempted this with d-ribose but it went wrong as the placebo wasn't a good choice: https://tipsforme.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/resource-walking-problems/#dribose

Due to the methodology problem there wasn't enough data to be worth properly analysing but it does look like d ribose may improve my pain and cognitive function for the feature match test of concentration (especially sitting up) though not for working memory :

Test
Baseline D-ribose wk 1 D-ribose wk2 D-ribose wk 3 Placebo wk 1
Digit span lying: 6 6 5 6 7
Digit span sitting: 5 5 6 6 7
Feature match lying: 90 132 98 122 106
Feature match sitting: 81 132. 116 144 80

Sorry can't get that to look like a table

See http://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com/browse/concentration/test/feature-match

 

[bertiedog]

I would ask what medicinal qualities and what physiological processes? I don't think we really know. If it's true supplements have these properties, a

May I suggest you look up the research at www.examine.com. You will find the answers that you are looking for on that site by checking the many references to the relevant studies regarding individual supplements. I note your earlier comments but you cannot ignore the references.

Pam

 

[Hip]

Another resource that Mendus sometimes uses is cognitive tests @Hip http://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com/

If a supplement may benefit brainfog do a few baseline cognitive tests and then test once a week while taking supplement under similar conditions (same time, eaten similar). Test again off the supplement to check for learning effects.

Interesting, I will have a look at those cognitive tests.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Interesting, I will have a look at those cognitive tests.

I love this ...just signed up.....sadly poor cognition today since I've run out of b12 oil....only scored 9.12. Be interesting to see how this changes.

 

[Hip]

I love this ...just signed up.....sadly poor cognition today since I've run out of b12 oil....only scored 9.12. Be interesting to see how this changes.

Your brain fog can't be too bad today if you got through the sign-up page...! Sometimes even that can be difficult with ME/CFS.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Yes was quite impressed with myself until I took the test! I'm going to try my optimum time tomorrow about 11-11:30am see if it improves.

 

[Chans]

What really sealed the deal for me was when I read that the independent laboratories that perform these tests have no government oversight so there's been no third-party verification of the accuracy of ANY of their tests. In fact, a doctor sent a sample for analysis to several different such labs and got wildly different results, and none of them matched the results he got from a reputable institutional lab.

Be careful there; in the case of hair tests, SOME (but far from all) labs do use highly reliable and replicable testing methods, BUT each lab prepares the sample a different way; some use acid to first desolve the outer part of the hair.

Don't know if this is the case here, but I do know that the quackbusters in bad faith lump the quacks and serious people in together and leave out the different methods.

 

[Alvin2]

As far as I now we have no reason to think that ME is caused by a lack of intake of anything or has ever been cured by taking supplements. If metabolism is altered it is almost certainly because of some abnormal regulation rather than deficiency and in general you cannot solve regulation problems just by trying to 'top up'.

I am surprised that so many people bother with supplements. In a way it seems to be agreeing with the sceptical doctors that ME is not a real disease but just due to not eating the right stuff, just like being due to not doing enough exercise or whatever. As I see it ME is a real physiological abnormality and there is no reason whatever to think that supplements would have any effect on that. Lots of people feel supplements make then feel well but that applies to normal healthy people too - they sell millions of dollars worth of the stuff.

There are some indications that in ME metabolic pathways are out of line. However, firstly we are still not sure all these findings stack up and secondly we have no idea what would be the right way to correct any regulatory imbalance. The idea that if cortisol is up you want to bring it down is to me crazy. You only start interfering with cortisol if you understand whether being up is part of a disease or a body's way of fighting the disease.

I didn't see this thread till it was bumped today by the above poster so sorry to reply to something from 6 months ago.
I agree and disagree with you. Someone once said there is no such thing as alternative medicine, medication either works or it does not and if it works its no longer alternative. I also think the dismissive attitudes of modern medicine is causing it to miss genuine conditions but its quite understandable and being dismissive in this instance is usually correct. I'll give an example, B12 levels that are enough to prevent pernicious anemia are not enough to allow other functions that it does. The ranges quoted around here do not take this into account, probably because the level was determined when pernicious anemia prevention was the only known function (133). Good luck trying to get this changed today, even though legitimate research shows higher levels are needed. Being dismissive prevents further research being incorporated into medical knowledge.
Another example is chiropractic, there is good (legitimate) evidence that it can help some specific types of pain, improve posture and scoliosis. However they are a victim of their own backwards superstitions, they cling to their subluxations and fixing any condition they can sink their teeth into. They would get more legitimacy if they dropped the garbage and got on board with its few legitimate applications which are proven.
Homeopathy is a good example as well, it has no active ingredients, multiple studies prove it doesn't work, it has no rational mechanism that can work. This is science done right, its proven a sham. But human nature is problematic, people go by gut feeling so if they think it will work they refuse to believe the facts an use the placebo effect as "proof"

Treatments can turn out to have positive effects even if they only treat symptoms, however i am very aware of snake oils, especially the many posted on this forum. It can be worth researching them to prove or disprove but thats hard because who is going to pay for and run studies. And with no disease mechanism we are shooting in the dark. However disproof doesn't seem to convince many people, and placebos are incredibly powerful

Also legitimate research can work in reverse order, Rituximab was unintentionally discovered to work, now being trialed further. AFAIK why it works is also not completely understood, i do hope it better understood and followed hopefully to a disease mechanism and maybe even a cause. No one would suggest it should be forgotten because it was discovered in reverse order.

Obviously no supplement we know of will cure ME/CFS (someone mentioned a 90% success rate doc in another thread, i pointed out his treatments are nonsense and 90% cure rate would have made him international headline news), but i do take several supplements because there is legitimate research showing positive effects (preferably double blind placebo controlled studies) leading me to try it and if it had noticeable positive effect i continued it. Probably 90% of what i have tried over the years did nothing, i tried it, didn't work, moved on. Feel free to look into these i currently take, from Coenzyme Q10 (gives me a bit more energy), Acetyl Carnitine (mental function), B12/folic acid (reducing homocysteine in CSF in ME/CFS, nuked my painful headaches that painkillers were not helping), melatonin (non 24 hour circadian rhythm disorder) and Vitamin K2 (arterial plaque, osteoporosis).

 

[flong]

I just sent mine off to Great Plains. I've done a lot of reading and watched some of the videos. Hoping I'm able to get some answers previously not available through standard blood work. There is something mysterious, metabolic, maybe autoimmune, probably bacterial related as well. Basically most systems seem in trouble, and it feels like there are clogs at certain points. My 23andme genetic test was interesting, but didn't really help much as far as treatment. I'm wondering if this test will be different.

 

[Learner1]

It is a useful.test. Hope you get some useful info!

 

[Sidney]

I just sent mine off to Great Plains. I've done a lot of reading and watched some of the videos. Hoping I'm able to get some answers previously not available through standard blood work. There is something mysterious, metabolic, maybe autoimmune, probably bacterial related as well. Basically most systems seem in trouble, and it feels like there are clogs at certain points. My 23andme genetic test was interesting, but didn't really help much as far as treatment. I'm wondering if this test will be different.

May I ask how you organised it? As I understand from the Great Plains site, you can buy a test, but you must have a doctor to 'sign off' on it. I have not found such a doctor.
I understand that the urine tests are much more accurate than routine blood tests. (?)
I would like to do the OAT, not to find out what supplements I might need, but to get an accurate thyroid analysis, and to find out if I actually do need the B12 oils and folate that I take. (Told at Stanford that they 'May help, if my ME/CFS is connected with my MTHFR' ).

 

[sb4]

May I ask how you organised it? As I understand from the Great Plains site, you can buy a test, but you must have a doctor to 'sign off' on it. I have not found such a doctor.

May work differently in USA but I just gave the name of my local GP, then got the surgery to email me the results.

 

[bjl218]

May I ask how you organised it? As I understand from the Great Plains site, you can buy a test, but you must have a doctor to 'sign off' on it. I have not found such a doctor.
I understand that the urine tests are much more accurate than routine blood tests. (?)
I would like to do the OAT, not to find out what supplements I might need, but to get an accurate thyroid analysis, and to find out if I actually do need the B12 oils and folate that I take. (Told at Stanford that they 'May help, if my ME/CFS is connected with my MTHFR' ).

In the US (and depending on what state you live in), there are places online where you can order these types of tests (and also traditional labwork through Labcorp or Quest). They have practitioners on staff who will sign the lab reqs. and send you the results. Of course, these won't be covered by insurance. Just Google "online lab tests" and you'll come up with a few companies doing this. I suggest you compare prices which can vary greatly. Until I found a functional medicine MD to work with, this is what I did to order tests that my traditional GP wouldn't order because he wasn't familiar with them or because they were "outside guidelines."

The better way to do this is to find a functional medicine MD, naturopath, or chiropractor to work with who is willing to order these tests. Although that might end up being more expensive than ordering the tests yourself...

 

[flong]

May I ask how you organised it? As I understand from the Great Plains site, you can buy a test, but you must have a doctor to 'sign off' on it. I have not found such a doctor.
I understand that the urine tests are much more accurate than routine blood tests. (?)
I would like to do the OAT, not to find out what supplements I might need, but to get an accurate thyroid analysis, and to find out if I actually do need the B12 oils and folate that I take. (Told at Stanford that they 'May help, if my ME/CFS is connected with my MTHFR' ).

I ordered it through my Naturopath ND. She actually placed the order, and will receive the results when they're ready, but her office will email me the results before I go see her. Ordered through her office, it cost a total of $300 Canadian.
I'm also hoping for some insight to why some of my B Vitamin levels/metabolism are so off.

 

[HamandRyeSandwiches]

I also meant to day that I had the OATS test done a few years ago. I found out something that I didn't understand the seriousness of it until recently. The person at Great Plains was definitely concerned with my high lactic acid count...but I don't remember if I followed through with her suggestions too well. I found out in September (from Dr. Darren Schmid on YT) that lactic acidosis is very dangerous (I got a 10-year hyperventilation disorder from it). He states it's caused by a B1 deficiency...and at the root of anxiety and panic. (Remember half of America is on anxiety meds). I've taken two airplane vacations since then...AND I HAD NO ANXIETY. For me this is HUGE...after 50 years of dealing with this. What a huge relief!

I don't go to docs...I can't afford their ineffective and harmful meds, tests, etc. Instead I invest money into myself with quality foods, supps, and alternative therapies. For me it's a much better use of my hard-earned money!

 

[Sidney]

Very grateful for all answers!

@sb4, things must be different in US: the ME/CFS clinic, rheumatologist, and pcp (gp),have all said they can’t do it, that I should ask one of my other doctors...

@flong : it seems that Canada is, as so often, more enlightened than we in the US.

@bjl218, yes, I could do it through functional doctors, but yes, it would cost more than doing it yourself online - the only ones available to me in N. Cali, run into thousands, by the time you go through their whole mill. You can’t just go and ask for a test...

Very intrigued, @HamandRyeSandwiches in your anxiety experience - I wonder if any doctors have taken notice of B1 in this context?

 

[grapes]

In response to the question if the OAT is quackery...I have to say that no way has it been quackery for ME. I have learned SO MUCH about myself and things I need to correct.

The first time, I used Organix. Then I used Great Plains twice..the last time being a month ago. I chose Great Plains for the nutrient levels. Each one is getting better than the last. This time, I found out I'm miserably low in B2, which can explain why my succinate is SOOO high and thus, I'm so easily fatigued.

I also found out that I have a pretty bad gastrointestinal candida problem, which can explain the low B2. Started treatment for that.

I also learned from the OAT that I have an inherited Ketone and Fatty Acid Oxidation problem. I also found out I have a form of PKU--who wouldn't guessed!! I would have NEVER known about either if I hadn't have done the OAT. I learned I don't break down protein well.

From the 2015 OAT, I learned that detoxing heavy metals had been taxing me and how I need to do a better job with countering free radicals. From the 2018 OAT, I learned I need to be on NAC to get my glutathione up, as the continued detoxing had lowered that.

From the 2016 OAT, I learned I badly need more COQ10, and again see that from the 2018 OAT. I also need to raise my B6. Also from the 2016 OAT, I found out TO MY SHOCK that I had brain inflammation!! I have since corrected that and the 2018 OAT proves it.

Because I've done three--2015, 2016 and this year...I've learned how some supplements have improved some of my issues, and how I need much more of others than they recommend.

The challenging part of doing the OAT is that you have to do a lot of research. I did buy the doctor's version of information that goes with the Organix OAT (actually got the student version which is cheaper) and continue to learn SO MUCH from that.

There is also a website that continues to be SO interesting--from it I've learned that my nearly high Citric might be from low B12....And I know I've had low levels of the latter due to a methylation issue that I'm only now correcting. http://feelgoodbiochem.com/chapter-4/

BOTTOM LINE: the OAT has changed my life!! I highly recommend it but understand that there will be a lot of research you'll need to do.

 

[consuegra]

I agree with "grapes" regarding the OAT test. One has to learn how to read it and how to intervene. With repeated testing one can establish some rational manipulation that corresponds to clinical improvement. Certain doctors use the OAT regularly. There is little useful published data on OAT tests. But it can be a guide if used properly.

I would respectfully disagree with Prof. Edwards ideas about the OAT test. I also am interested in his comments on what one can do, faced with the traumatic and uncertain peril of this illness. I suppose patients and caregivers fall into one of two categories. They either do nothing and try to be happy, as Dr. Edwards suggests, or they try to intervene.

I have seen a number of patients over the years make modest but important improvement with this illness. In every case it comes from intervention, groping for a solution. I have never heard of nor seen a spontaneous remission. Every improvement that I have seen, in others, comes from dogged, trial and error attempts to mitigate the illness. I myself have helped at least ten patients get somewhat better with my own modest suggestions. Each situation was a different, a partial but important improvement. Sometimes even a smart and sympathetic doctor is involved.

Intervention works in some cases. The alternative - doing nothing - may be a long wait, with the increased risk of any number of things making the illness worse, leading to catastrophe. I am not sure that Dr. Edwards understands much about the reality or devastation of this illness.

Chris

 

[HamandRyeSandwiches]

In response to the question if the OAT is quackery...I have to say that no way has it been quackery for ME. I have learned SO MUCH about myself and things I need to correct.

The first time, I used Organix. Then I used Great Plains twice..the last time being a month ago. I chose Great Plains for the nutrient levels. Each one is getting better than the last. This time, I found out I'm miserably low in B2, which can explain why my succinate is SOOO high and thus, I'm so easily fatigued.

I also found out that I have a pretty bad gastrointestinal candida problem, which can explain the low B2. Started treatment for that.

I also learned from the OAT that I have an inherited Ketone and Fatty Acid Oxidation problem. I also found out I have a form of PKU--who wouldn't guessed!! I would have NEVER known about either if I hadn't have done the OAT. I learned I don't break down protein well.

From the 2015 OAT, I learned that detoxing heavy metals had been taxing me and how I need to do a better job with countering free radicals. From the 2018 OAT, I learned I need to be on NAC to get my glutathione up, as the continued detoxing had lowered that.

From the 2016 OAT, I learned I badly need more COQ10, and again see that from the 2018 OAT. I also need to raise my B6. Also from the 2016 OAT, I found out TO MY SHOCK that I had brain inflammation!! I have since corrected that and the 2018 OAT proves it.

Because I've done three--2015, 2016 and this year...I've learned how some supplements have improved some of my issues, and how I need much more of others than they recommend.

The challenging part of doing the OAT is that you have to do a lot of research. I did buy the doctor's version of information that goes with the Organix OAT (actually got the student version which is cheaper) and continue to learn SO MUCH from that.

There is also a website that continues to be SO interesting--from it I've learned that my nearly high Citric might be from low B12....And I know I've had low levels of the latter due to a methylation issue that I'm only now correcting. http://feelgoodbiochem.com/chapter-4/

BOTTOM LINE: the OAT has changed my life!! I highly recommend it but understand that there will be a lot of research you'll need to do.

That is awesome for you! I too had the OATS test a few years ago and it really helped move my progress along because of the problems it clued me in to. And this is one of the many many reasons I went alternative medicine...

 

[grapes]

That is awesome for you! I too had the OATS test a few years ago and it really helped move my progress along because of the problems it clued me in to. And this is one of the many many reasons I went alternative medicine...

OAT testing has been HUGE for me in getting well again. I'm hopefully on my last leg of the wellness journey.