No More Psychological Studies. An editorial, by Mindy Kitei

[SilverbladeTE]

Angela
did thoughtful, sane, logical analysis by you and others stop Sophia Mirza's death?
No.
that's it in a nut shell.

I'm really sorry, I appreciate your sentiment and viewpoint, I do not think you should stop what you do, but in general, it's a waste of time for nearly everyone else who should be out protesting, emailing, writing letters and telling the "babbling" psychs to go **** themselves crossways with a barge pole!

SQUEAKY WHEEL GETS THE GREASE!

that how the real world works in it's ugly lumpen way, not dusty debating chambers and logicak debate by those who actually care about the Scientific Principle.
Calm rational debate does jack squat int he way of corruption and vested interest. Wave a stick at them, wave gold at them, point to the mob baying for their blood, THEN you'll get action.

I'm sorry, truly I am. But scum respect nothing but personally getting their ass in a jam, be it fired by superiors, bopped on the nose by a victim or jailed for cold blooded murder.
I've dealt with ratbags high and low, and they're all the same: they don't give a toss about others or logic :/

The difference between the street scum with the screwdriver and a drug habit, and the politically astute weasel (be it MD, exec, or MP) is really just better social skills and awarness of how events may unfold (i.e. risk strategy management).
To put it in a sort of Terry Pratchett way, the only difference between a bandit and a king is: the king understands the importance of etiquette and having a patsy!

Your approcach will eventually get through...after all the SOBs like Wessely are dead from old age and thus new ideas will be allowed to enter, after all the secrets come out and we discover whatever this is all really about

This has happened in other areas of science, however, we are not talking about say, Continental Drift, where the otucome is purely about scientific advancement and merely held up by bloated egos.
In this case people are DYING, and being locked up, having their kids stolen, and tortured etc.

Now, by all means keep doing what you are doing, you will help change the minds of the non-bigots EVENTUALLY, and through rational decent behaviour

Our enemies though are scum, they are not like you. You have to bypass, uproot or eliminate them because they don't give a crap what the hell you say.
In thirty bloody years these scum have only got stronger, only the WPi has managed to put a serious dent in the bastards.

You are acting on the basis that the tools of rational science will win, which they won't, because "Weasels" are not at all rational.
They have dug in by means unknown to us: "Old school tie", insurance companies pulling political strings due to fear of losses, or whatever, but they have huge influence YOU CANNOT DEFEAT by logicla dissection of their studies.

Street protests en masse are far FAR more effective, than kind, merciful, logical, friendly, decent, wise verbal and written discourse, and I am fed up with that fact, but it's true.
Look at Egypt and many many other examples.

You aren't wrong, you're just not seeing it's a battlefield with more than one dimension and your "front" is not the be all and end all of it.
Yours is the underlying, logic sane basis, a strong point if you will, but what we need, is a Blitzkreig: outmanouvering the road blocks deliberately engineered by masters of psychology and PR, cutting their gawd damn support out from under them, and let them we washed into the sewers to drown in the filth they've made us endure, while we storm the high ground
Once that is achieved, logic and sanity can form a clear cut basis of proof where it can finally be HEARD instead of swept into a tangental wastebasket.

 

[Recovery Soon]

Moderator: Entire post deleted. Exceptionally personal and offensive towards a fellow member

 

[floydguy]

The Dennis Miller of Disability strikes again- "Determined Ignorance"..."Philistinism"..."Intellectual Myopia"...Really? Are you actually reading any of this back?

Did I say your goals were AGAINST the goals of anyone? Did I say I want to stop anyone from doing anything? Hello...Is there anybody in there?

I said a unified focus is what the community needs- at worst my opinion is that your approach is ineffective...but you're certainly entitled to it, and it's not against anyone. Have at it- isn't that what I said? But your interpretation of my words is so colossally astray its comical. And bringing in others who I am supposedly AGAINST is a white flag the size of Texas. Nothing says no gas in the tank like "You must be against this list of people as well."

I'm disappointed actually. You were kind of defending your position well there for a while. And I was kind of enjoying the tennis match.

Now it's just embarrassing.

And the "potentially catastrophic" line...WTF?

Lady...it's a difference of opinion. You're not that important. Neither am I.

The same way you're overworked about psychobabble studies you're overworked about this difference of opinion. And your flair for the dramatic completely works against your opinion and you can't see that. People want to disagree with you because whatever side you're on seems like the wrong side because of your stage antics ("doom the community for lifetimes"- really?). Even if you're side is the right side. Its alienating. It makes you seem unbalanced.

And speaking of balance, I have spent way too much time on this. So that's my last serve.

But before I leave...seeing as how reason has the same effect on you that daylight has on dracula...I'll purposefully and loudly distort my own view so as to confirm what it is you think you read here today, and ease the cognitive dissonance that is brimming on your side of the Atlantic (I'm assuming from the psych research you've engulfed yourself in that you're familiar with the term). Anyway...here goes (deep breath):

EVERYBODY...PLEASE DON'T THINK...BE ANGRY...BE IGNORANT....PUT YOUR HEADS UP YOUR ARSES...THAT"S OUR ONLY WAY OUT.

(Feel calmer, yet?).

Nite

If only Mr. Kite would jump in here...

 

[Recovery Soon]

If only Mr. Kite would jump in here...

Now that's funny.

 

[justinreilly]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
best wishes to you in pursuit of your separate quest, apart from physical treatment.

You're the one saying how much good comes from keeping the psych approach in the equation? or am i crazy to think this?

why did i use your quote? because use of others' quotes does not signal agreement... especially in this case. i'm done with this circuitous psychobabble, so you debate on; i prefer to devote my precious energy to a more worthy end.

5150: wtf???????????????????????????????????????
this sounds like trolling for lulz. i think you know better of Angela.

 

[Recovery Soon]

Moderator: Entire post deleted. Exceptionally personal and offensive towards a fellow member

This deletion was completely over the top. Yes, the post was sarcastic. But you can't delete stuff simply because someone doesn't like it. It was a response to a post where I was called stupid, ignorant, ludicrous, anti-intellectual, damning to the community, etc. And that's all fine by me. But don't delete the response which didn't go any further, and was a whole lot funnier.

Sarcasm was the offense here. Let's be honest.

 

[sacha]

Hm, I'm not quite sure what's going on in this thread, there seems to be some goading and willful misinterpretation. Personally I'm very thankful that a bunch of well-informed people are picking psych studies apart. The psychs are in power, unfortunately. There are many countries with socialised medicine where very sick people are obliged to jump through hoops because the psychs tell them to. Without CBT and GET, no chance of any benefits or help. At the same time, these countries invest very little, if at all, in biomedical research and they tend to increase the target population indiscriminately. Denominations like ME or even CFS are replaced by terms such as 'unexplained fatigue complaints' and the sufferers are directed to clinics in order to be 'rehabilitated'. The very existence of these clinics reduces a proper clinical examination of patients, so much goes undetected.

I simply don't understand how we could campaign for more biomedical research if we (or a group of dedicated and knowledgeable people) don't show how scientifically unsound the present psych approach is. The two must go together.

So thank you Angela et al.

 

[pictureofhealth]

Yes where is old Kite these days? I'm missing his zebra striped hand icon popping up in the left hand margin and razor wit!

Perhaps the only way to emphasise to Wessely (or White) just how tedious their intellectual approach to illness has become is to arrive at one of his lectures (preferably one given at the most prestigious of academic institutions), sit in the front row and yawn all the way through.

He's bound to notice at some point and comment in a self deprecating manner.

If not ..

Take out your I-pod, put your headphones on and turn the volume up and start humming loudly out of tune.

Unwrap sweets loudly.

Get someone to ring you on your mobile in the middle and say 'HELLO!!" really loudly as you pick up the call.

If he stops the lecture, just say, "I thought this was a lecture about ME. I was waiting for you to start."

Do anything, just DON'T engage with him intellectually.

 

[Nielk]

I have just read this thread and want to add some points:

1- The greatest wars have been won when attacking on multiple fronts. Why do people think that if you support
studies on biomarkers -XMRV-WPI etc., we can't simultaneously attack these "Psychobabble" studies.
Why does one exclude the other?
2- Just because we feel we haven't been effective with our advocacy against the wessely s of this world, does
it mean it's time to give up? That would just give them validation of their works.
3- There is power in numbers. The more people trying to refute their nonsense, the more of an effect it will have.
(think Gandhi)
4- Perseverance also eventually works. Where would this country be without the Civil Movement?. Change was not
accomplished immediately. Just like water drops dripping on a stone. If you just watch it, you don't see any change,
but, over time (especially if you increase the amount of drops) you will see the stone eroding.
5- We can't just sit by and allow this injustice to go on. If we don't fight it, who will.
6- Even in the worse case scenario and we don't see any change, at least we tried and that in my opinion is empowering.

 

[leela]

Angela Kennedy,

If you would focus your passion on those very outside forces you mention early in this thread and avoid attacking the very people who are on our side (Mindy) and patients themselves, I believe that focus and energy would be better spent. I am surprised the moderator hasn't reprimanded you for sarcasm, calling people names etc. In my view that is wholly unacceptable, and if you disagree with people you can always find a way to express that without deriding people and their thoughts, which IMO you have done repeatedly and vigorously on this thread.

Creating divisiveness and discord among the very population that NEEDS to stick together and REQUIRES stress to be minimized is itself--what did you call Mindy's POV in the first post?--misguided.

Please try to add your POV and approach in a civil way, without pushing, deriding, and dividing. I can't even understand the strength of your beef that started this thread, to be honest. All it would have taken was an "I have another idea" sort of comment. Instead you have fomented such unpleasantness in the wake of your zealotry that I cannot even read the thread in its entirety.

Please try to temper your tone, because your, and everyone's, points of view deserve to be heard, and heard without a heart rate going beyond the AT!

Thank you.

 

[Recovery Soon]

Angela Kennedy,

If you would focus your passion on those very outside forces you mention early in this thread and avoid attacking the very people who are on our side (Mindy) and patients themselves, I believe that focus and energy would be better spent. I am surprised the moderator hasn't reprimanded you for sarcasm, calling people names etc. In my view that is wholly unacceptable, and if you disagree with people you can always find a way to express that without deriding people and their thoughts, which IMO you have done repeatedly and vigorously on this thread.

Creating divisiveness and discord among the very population that NEEDS to stick together and REQUIRES stress to be minimized is itself--what did you call Mindy's POV in the first post?--misguided.

Please try to add your POV and approach in a civil way, without pushing, deriding, and dividing. I can't even understand the strength of your beef that started this thread, to be honest. All it would have taken was an "I have another idea" sort of comment. Instead you have fomented such unpleasantness in the wake of your zealotry that I cannot even read the thread in its entirety.

Please try to temper your tone, because your, and everyone's, points of view deserve to be heard, and heard without a heart rate going beyond the AT!

Thank you.

Yup. She stirred it up- personal attacks and all (which I honestly couldn't care less about) then went whining to the Moderator when she got owned at her own game.

That part doesn't surprise me. That the Moderator went along with it does.

 

[Martlet]

Moderator: There is altogether too much anger in this thread, with members attacking each other personally. Please will members refrain from such attacks, otherwise another otherwise good thread will be closed.

 

[Sean]

There are many countries with socialised medicine where very sick people are obliged to jump through hoops because the psychs tell them to.

And there are countries without socialised medicine where the same happens, like the USA.

I am getting tired of folks who are hijacking ME/CFS issues to indulge in irrelevant and pointless ideological battles about which political system is superior. They have all seriously failed us.

 

[Angela Kennedy]

And there are countries without socialised medicine where the same happens, like the USA.

I am getting tired of folks who are hijacking ME/CFS issues to indulge in irrelevant and pointless ideological battles about which political system is superior. They have all seriously failed us.

Yes, I totally agree.

 

[Angela Kennedy]

Yup. She stirred it up- personal attacks and all (which I honestly couldn't care less about) then went whining to the Moderator when she got owned at her own game.

That part doesn't surprise me. That the Moderator went along with it does.

Oh that's funny.

I didn't actually go to any moderator.

 

[Angela Kennedy]

Angela Kennedy,

If you would focus your passion on those very outside forces you mention early in this thread and avoid attacking the very people who are on our side (Mindy) and patients themselves, I believe that focus and energy would be better spent. I am surprised the moderator hasn't reprimanded you for sarcasm, calling people names etc. In my view that is wholly unacceptable, and if you disagree with people you can always find a way to express that without deriding people and their thoughts, which IMO you have done repeatedly and vigorously on this thread.

Creating divisiveness and discord among the very population that NEEDS to stick together and REQUIRES stress to be minimized is itself--what did you call Mindy's POV in the first post?--misguided.

Please try to add your POV and approach in a civil way, without pushing, deriding, and dividing. I can't even understand the strength of your beef that started this thread, to be honest. All it would have taken was an "I have another idea" sort of comment. Instead you have fomented such unpleasantness in the wake of your zealotry that I cannot even read the thread in its entirety.

Please try to temper your tone, because your, and everyone's, points of view deserve to be heard, and heard without a heart rate going beyond the AT!

Thank you.

I'm sorry, but that is hilarious. I'm amazed that it's ME you've chosen to say this to specifically, on THIS thread.

I was responding to attacks on the work people like me have been doing. The posters advocating that have the capacity to damage community advocacy. Clearly stated (and very discomfiting, certainly) reasons why this was absurd and dangerous needed to be said by me, but I didn't attack anyone personally.

I get that you don't understand the issue, by the way.

 

[leela]

AK,
I did not say that I didn't understand the issue. Please refrain from bending my words. I said that I did not get the strength of your original beef with Mindy--in other words, I think it would have been possible, and less inflammatory, to express your point of view without finger-pointing, blaming, and lambasting. Your words and tone were indeed personally attacking, to her (an otherwise rare ally) and in the escalating comments that unfolded.

I picked you because you set the tone from the get-go. This offended people, who responded in kind (which I don't enjoy either.) But I wrote to you specifically because you have chosen to open with the tack of pushing your view and deriding all views that don't coincide, and of misquoting and manipulating other peoples' words to cultivate a stance of angry superiority that serves no one.

I notice you deemed my message to you "hilarious", though I was clearly writing in an appeal to keep us as patients united. Why not, as others have suggested, drop the adversarial, sarcastic stance, and adopt a both/and POV? The pursuing of analysis of psych studies can occur concurrently with biomedical research. Mindy is entitled to her opinion, as are you, but neither deserve to be belittled and accused of ignorance for that position. If you disagree you might better serve yourself, your cause, and the cause in general by simply stating that you disagree and calmly explaining why.

I don't find it hilarious at all when the patient population starts hacking away at each other, and it is my opinion that your manner in this whole thread has contributed in an unfortunate way to inciting that kind of erosion of unity. If you can't see the power and responsibility you carry with your words, I'm not sure how effective you will ultimately be as an advocate. I think your point of view is an important one, but I don't believe many people can hear it when it is delivered--and thus overshadowed-- with angry, accusatory invective.

And I suppose when you say "I get that you don't understand the issue, by the way" it was more than a misquote or misunderstanding of what I wrote.
I suspect it was a veiled way of calling me ignorant (an attribution you seem to be quick to dispense). Well, I'll tell you this much: I'm intelligent enough to stop here, after sincerely encouraging you to lighten up a bit.

 

[Angela Kennedy]

AK,
I did not say that I didn't understand the issue. Please refrain from bending my words. I said that I did not get the strength of your original beef with Mindy--in other words, I think it would have been possible, and less inflammatory, to express your point of view without finger-pointing, blaming, and lambasting. Your words and tone were indeed personally attacking, to her (an otherwise rare ally) and in the escalating comments that unfolded.

I picked you because you set the tone from the get-go. This offended people, who responded in kind (which I don't enjoy either.) But I wrote to you specifically because you have chosen to open with the tack of pushing your view and deriding all views that don't coincide, and of misquoting and manipulating other peoples' words to cultivate a stance of angry superiority that serves no one.

I notice you deemed my message to you "hilarious", though I was clearly writing in an appeal to keep us as patients united. Why not, as others have suggested, drop the adversarial, sarcastic stance, and adopt a both/and POV? The pursuing of analysis of psych studies can occur concurrently with biomedical research. Mindy is entitled to her opinion, as are you, but neither deserve to be belittled and accused of ignorance for that position. If you disagree you might better serve yourself, your cause, and the cause in general by simply stating that you disagree and calmly explaining why.

I don't find it hilarious at all when the patient population starts hacking away at each other, and it is my opinion that your manner in this whole thread has contributed in an unfortunate way to inciting that kind of erosion of unity. If you can't see the power and responsibility you carry with your words, I'm not sure how effective you will ultimately be as an advocate. I think your point of view is an important one, but I don't believe many people can hear it when it is delivered--and thus overshadowed-- with angry, accusatory invective.

And I suppose when you say "I get that you don't understand the issue, by the way" it was more than a misquote or misunderstanding of what I wrote.
I suspect it was a veiled way of calling me ignorant (an attribution you seem to be quick to dispense). Well, I'll tell you this much: I'm intelligent enough to stop here, after sincerely encouraging you to lighten up a bit.

Oh, 'lighten up': that's REALLY helpful. Actually, no it's not.

That you have focused on my tone, rather than what i am saying, is my problem with your post. It's something of a red herring. That you have focused on my occasional sarcasm, rather than the rampant sarcasm of say, Recovery Soon, is another problem with your posts. That you do not appear to understand why I might have such a 'beef' means that, indeed, you might not understand the issue, and that worries me. That you have not defended the points I am making, which are reasonable, is another issue which makes me think you are arguing against me in bad faith.

And if I were to say to you, Leela, that your tone here, makes you ineffective as an advocate, that your 'passion' in writing your posts here (which have offended me because of the reasons above, and you actually do have an 'arrogant' tone in your writing, at least to my reading) could be better spent doing something else that I personally deem more important, you would be shocked at my sheer arrogance, yet this is what has been done to people (me included), including by you, yourself, here.

But - I take it you do understand that, even though Mindy is entitled to her opinion (as I think you might have forgotten, am I therefore) she is wrong in your opinion (you've just said above "The pursuing of analysis of psych studies can occur concurrently with biomedical research", which should indicate you do think this way)?

That you have not understood that people HAVE been ATTACKING that position (and claiming that "the pursuing of analysis of psych studies" is wrong and people doing it must be diverted towards other things), and THAT this is why my 'beef' is so great, is what worries me. Your way of thinking puts people in a Catch 22 position. However they say it, they're wrong.

Now whether that is because you've been following your own prejudices or emotional horror of sarcasm to rail against me rather than the people attacking mine and other advocacy initiatives, or whether you've used ad hominem tactics to discredit my argument, I don't know. But either way- your horror of my tone is odd, considering the other problems from other people you've chosen to ignore.

 

[sacha]

Originally Posted by sacha
'There are many countries with socialised medicine where very sick people are obliged to jump through hoops because the psychs tell them to.'

And there are countries without socialised medicine where the same happens, like the USA.
I am getting tired of folks who are hijacking ME/CFS issues to indulge in irrelevant and pointless ideological battles about which political system is superior. They have all seriously failed us.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand, is this about me? My post had absolutely nothing to do with political ideology! I only wanted to say that you can't just ignore the psychs because they have so much power over us. I'm sorry if that point didn't come across.

 

[Angela Kennedy]

Originally Posted by sacha
'There are many countries with socialised medicine where very sick people are obliged to jump through hoops because the psychs tell them to.'

And there are countries without socialised medicine where the same happens, like the USA.
I am getting tired of folks who are hijacking ME/CFS issues to indulge in irrelevant and pointless ideological battles about which political system is superior. They have all seriously failed us.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand, is this about me? My post had absolutely nothing to do with political ideology! I only wanted to say that you can't just ignore the psychs because they have so much power over us. I'm sorry if that point didn't come across.

Oh yes I see! Sorry sacha. No- I quite agree that socialised medicine has failed us here in the UK. I was just supporting the comment that all the systems have failed us. No- I certainly don't think you were hijacking the issue to promote private medicine or anything like that! I should have been clearer. Sorry.