New twiv on xmrv

[Boule de feu]

I am reading the Polio Paradox right now (I recommend this book!) , and I can see how genetic predispositions could play a role in the CFS propagation.

 

[Mya Symons]

I am listening to the TWIV once again. I missed something from the first listen. They are talking about how the original samples were taken in the 90's from certain groups of patients. The reason the paper was withheld was that the NIH/FDA researches wanted to rule out contamination. Thus, they took more blood samples from some of the same group of patients from the 90's and found the exact same virus again in those patients. They also used a variety of PCR that they tested for contamination first. Those tests were negative. THIS COMPLETELY RULES OUT CONTAMINATION. Did I get that right or am I not understanding? So everything that Myra Mclure is saying is basically BS. She is just another doctor who does not want to be wrong?

George, my doctor is becoming interested in XMRV (HGRV). Are you still writing more about your theories on how this virus spread. Is your post here the complete writing or is there more? I would love to bring it into my doctor and show it to her. Would you mind? If it is not complete, are you going to post it here when you are done?

 

[George]

Hey Mya, I'm going to integrate the new info into the old theory and rewrite it as soon as I get a confirmation on Vince's statements. Right now they are more or less undocumented so it could be a while.

I agree with the BS part regarding Dr. McClure. Contamination has been ruled out by most of these new abstracts. Most of it's just misdirection used to keep the media at bay for now.

 

[urbantravels]

The twiv guys were very admiring of how well the study had been done, including the measures to rule out contamination.

 

[eric_s]

I also find it hard to believe that contamination is responsible for the positive studies. They found antibodies and they were able to infect other cells (LnCaP). So there is a virus and not just some sequences. And XMRV can't infect mice, so at least in those studies where they found XMRV and not other related viruses that can infect mice, i don't see how it could have come from mice (what the people talking about contamination often seem to suggest).

 

[George]

What get's me is that they talk about the cultures being contaminated but only the cultures for the CFS patients seems to be contaminated. (grins)

The it was the heparin that was contaminated but again only contaminated for the CFS patients not for the controls. (big grins)

Then they ignored the bronchial study that found it in bronchial secretions at around 3% for controls and normals but 9% for persons receiving blood/organ donations. Those pesky meeces must be running across the organ donations! (Bigger grins)

And now they're ignoring the fact that you can find it in urine. Damn those mice they've been playing in the pee cups. (snicker grins)

Oh and it seems the only people who believe it's contamination are the people with the zero studies. The folks that can find it have moved on and are doing more in-depth work.

 

[Sasha]

I am reading the Polio Paradox right now (I recommend this book!) , and I can see how genetic predispositions could play a role in the CFS propagation.

Thanks for mentioning this book, Boule - I'd never heard of it and it looks fascinating. Here it is on US Amazon. It's one of those ones that you can look inside and see the contents & an extract.

There's a rather touching bit at the end, directed at friends & family of people with PPS (who find themselves having to limit their activities years after apparently having recovered from polio). It explains that it will be very upsetting for the person with PPS to have to start to wear a leg brace again or use a cane or ask for help, having spent their lives trying to appear normal and not disabled. I'm sure we've all been there and got that particular t-shirt!

 

[Otis]

Hey no fair. I didn't get the t-shirt(s)!

The other thing that makes contamination laughable is the sequences (2 complete for WPI + partials & 6 partials for Lo/Alter) are unique and available for anyone to see. If I can do it anyone can!

 

[Sasha]

Hey no fair. I didn't get the t-shirt(s)!

Don't worry, plenty to go round!

Hey, Otis, what's your new avatar? I thought it was some sort of data representation but now I've put my other glasses on I am wondering if it is some sort of avant garde teatowel! :Retro smile:

 

[Otis]

Don't worry, plenty to go round!

Hey, Otis, what's your new avatar? I thought it was some sort of data representation but now I've put my other glasses on I am wondering if it is some sort of avant garde teatowel! :Retro smile:

You got me I'm a tea-towel fanatic.

Actually you were right the first time - it's data. It's (an illegible) output of a computer program called BLAST, which is used to compare pieces of genetic material. In this case two of the WPI XMRV sequences. I'm letting my geek flag fly. I find it pretty cool that this program and it's massive database are available to anybody. For once our tax dollars seem to actually be at work. Now we just need to get more money to sequence XMRV/HGRVs.

Maybe I'll get a t-shirt with the XMRV genetic sequence on it...

 

[illsince1977]

Apparently, the NCI still hasn't moved beyond the contamination question, if you can believe it!

From http://www.cancer.gov/ncicancerbulletin/092110/page5 that I just posted here http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/sh...-State-of-the-Science&p=125162#post125162that:

Possible Contamination

Contamination of patient samples by mouse DNA could also play a role in positive results, some researchers said. Mouse cells contain hundreds of DNA sequences that are similar but not identical to XMRV. Contamination is a particular concern because todays genetic tools are capable of detecting trace amounts of DNA or RNA from mouse viruses or tissues in patient samples.

To make this point, Dr. Coffin showed a picture of his swimming pool and proposed a thought experiment. He said that if a single drop of mouse blood were added to the pool and allowed to mix well, DNA from virus-related sequences in the mouse cells could be detected in a 1 mL sample of water (20 drops) with the tools commonly used to search for XMRV. Thats how sensitive the tools are today, he said.

Dr. Ila Singh of the University of Utah agreed that contamination from mice can occur very easily in the lab and urged researchers to be ultra careful. Her group recently reported that XMRV was present in malignant prostate cells and was more commonly found in men with aggressive tumors.

The discrepancies may come down to the tests, or assays, being used, as well as the storage and processing of samples, said Dr. Stuart LeGrice of NCI-Frederick, one of the organizers. With this meeting, the groundwork has been laid for focusing on the role of contamination and whether handling and processing play a role in results.

Some participants also called for creating reference samples that researchers could use to evaluate how well tools detect XMRV. This could include positive samples from patients as well as appropriate negative controls. As one participant said, the field urgently needs a protocol that would give researchers concordant resultsregardless of whether those results are positive or negative.

I suspect that until we have the technological details sorted out we wont be able to address the more interesting ideas about whether the virus is involved in human disease, said Dr. Jonathan Stoye of the National Institute for Medical Research, UK, another member of the organizing committee.

:tear:

 

[eric_s]

How can mouse DNA infect cells? I'm not a biologist or MD but that's news to me.

 

[Sasha]

Actually you were right the first time - it's data. It's (an illegible) output of a computer program called BLAST, which is used to compare pieces of genetic material. In this case two of the WPI XMRV sequences. I'm letting my geek flag fly. I find it pretty cool that this program and it's massive database are available to anybody. For once our tax dollars seem to actually be at work. Now we just need to get more money to sequence XMRV/HGRVs.

Maybe I'll get a t-shirt with the XMRV genetic sequence on it...

I like it!

 

[illsince1977]

I found this here: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/Animal_alternatives/vaccines.htm

Quality Control
In vaccine production, mice are used most extensively for quality control. Vaccine formulations include constituents such as living tissues, viruses and bacteria. Thus, since all vaccine batches are not the same, their content and effects must be tested regularly at selected stages of production to monitor safety, as required by federal regulations.

Did you find this part interesting/ironic because they use mice to test for bad outcomes as the result of the vaccines, and the mice would never get XMRV because lab mice lack the XPR1 receptor necessary to express XMRV? That's what struck me when I read about quality control.

From (transcription and any mistakes are mine. Yes it was full of run-on sentences!)
YouTube - CROI 2010: Dr Goff on XMRV

It was really discovered in a kind of funny way, because mice that we work with dont have the appropriate receptor for this virus, so they arent actually capable of sustaining an infection. So the only source of this virus is this integrative copy thats been in the genome for a very long time.

And the way it was discovered was in the 70s when people started passing human cell lines through mice, human cells have the receptor most mammals do and when the human cells were passed through the mice and then recovered out of the mice, they almost invariably acquired this virus. The mice had low levels, they passed it to the human cells the human cells were very able to be infected. And so when human cells were studied after theyd been through a mouse, lo and behold! They had this very interesting virus which people assumed was a human virus in the early days, but were misled it was a mouse virus. And people have studied it at a low level, basically since the 70s, not worrying very much about it at the time, but

and
From
Retroviruses - Google Books
RetrovirusesBy John M. Coffin, Harold E. Varmus, 1999, p.77

Although xenotropic viruses will not infect cells of inbred strains of mice, they will infect cells derived from some wild mice and species of mice other than M. Musculus (Hartley and Rowe 1975; Lander and Chadopadhyay 1984).

Science can be very arrogant about controlling for all those pesky variables!
Then it turns out there was one sneaky little variable they just never thought to control for that is really controlling their experiments.

George even said the same above in a kind of round about way:

Little's innovation was the "inbred strain." ... Before inbred strains, scientists couldn't say for certain whether their results were because of the genetic quirks of a particular mouse or the experiments.

Just don't you dare bring the possibility of vaccine contamination into the discussion with them because they'll think you're one of those National Enquirer devouring, Area 51, crop circle, alien kidnapping wild theorists!

If you challenge the theoretical underpinnings of their research there must be something wrong with you! Only other scientists possess the credentials to question them, and then only when granted permission.


Maybe I'm just being a little cynical today, sorry!

Doees anyone else see the same possibility here?

As an aside - George, you make some assumptions about the origins of HIV/AIDS that strike me as speculative and base your model on that.

 

[Mya Symons]

illsince1977, I hope you do not mind, but I thought since you gave a really good discription on how vaccines could have become contaminated, that I would repost your post under the thread "Are Vaccines Contaminated."

 

[Boule de feu]

The author's message

Thanks for mentioning this book, Boule - I'd never heard of it and it looks fascinating. Here it is on US Amazon. It's one of those ones that you can look inside and see the contents & an extract.

There's a rather touching bit at the end, directed at friends & family of people with PPS (who find themselves having to limit their activities years after apparently having recovered from polio). It explains that it will be very upsetting for the person with PPS to have to start to wear a leg brace again or use a cane or ask for help, having spent their lives trying to appear normal and not disabled. I'm sure we've all been there and got that particular t-shirt!

This is what he wrote on page 12:

There are clear parallels dating from as far back as 1935 between polio and what in the 1980s came to be called chronic fatigue syndrome. These parallels can help us understand, treat, and manage CFS as well as fibromyalgia - both conditions affecting millions of people worldwide in which doctors also choose not to believe.

He continues with:
Whether you had polio, have chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, or are suffering the slings and arrows of aging with any disability, the lessons polio survivors have learned - about their bodies and their minds, about disability, society, and the way medicine is practiced - must be applied to everyone.

I thought it is interesting how he compares both diseases and mentions the struggles we have everyday...

(Sorry I'm off topic. I will make sure it never happens again ;-)

 

[urbantravels]

The new #100 TWiV is up, and the guest is David Baltimore, Nobel prize winner "for ... discoveries concerning the interaction between tumour viruses and the genetic material of the cell." I haven't listened yet; the topic seems to be general chit-chat but they may mention XMRV/MLVs at some point.

 

[jimm]

The new #100 TWiV is up, and the guest is David Baltimore, Nobel prize winner "for ... discoveries concerning the interaction between tumour viruses and the genetic material of the cell." I haven't listened yet; the topic seems to be general chit-chat but they may mention XMRV/MLVs at some point.

its at about -45 on the twiv countdown timer counter on the podcast

 

[urbantravels]

I've been listening to the #100 TWiv and they talk about XMRV from minute 44 to minute 49, but there is absolutely nothing interesting about the discussion. It consists of a discussion of how we should be cautious at this point, nothing is proven and people should not be taking ARVs yet.

Fine, OK, I get it, I even agree with that, but I'm getting frustrated that the issue is so controversial that nobody seems willing to discuss the science, for fear the patients might take any little piece of information and run with it in some crazy direction. News flash: Patients are going to do crazy stuff no matter how tight-lipped the scientists try to be about the current research. People have been doing crazy stuff trying to treat their CFS for decades now, because there is no GOOD STUFF - no standard of care in mainstream medicine. The same thing happened in the early days of HIV/AIDS, when the snake oil salesmen reigned supreme for a short time before actual medical treatments started becoming available.

I wish there would have been some discussion about the fascinating new avenues of scientific investigation into CFS that are now opening up, and some hardcore talk about the virology of the disease - even if it's speculative at this point. But I guess we won't get any of that. If I were, say, another scientist with no particular bone to pick about CFS but was really interested in a new area of retroviral research, I'd be frustrated about the lack of open discussion. It's not just a patient issue.

 

[urbantravels]

OK, I decided to put my money where my big mouth was and post a comment on the TWiV site with what I just said above. Wonder how the guys will respond.