New twiv on xmrv

[guest]

Diesel, I'm willing to take a shot. Anyone who wants to help clean up and errors of less than clear portions of the following, please feel free.

[FONT=&quot]Perhaps this will help. Take a good look at the slides I've linked to from an online retroviral tutorial produced by Stanford Univ.: http://www.stanford.edu/group/nolan/tutorials/ret_3_maj_prot.html[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“The group antigens (GAG) form the viral core structure, RNA genome binding proteins, and are the major proteins comprising the nucleoprotein core particle.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is from the http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/08/16/1007944107.full.pdf ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mouse retroviruses and chronic fatigue syndrome: Does X (or P) mark the spot?[/FONT][FONT=&quot])[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Glycosylated forms of Gag, or glycogag, can be incorporated in virions (10) and are required for ef[/FONT][FONT=&quot]fi[/FONT][FONT=&quot]cient viral release (11), spread, and pathogenesis (12, 13)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Think of glycogen as fuel for the body’s metabolic processes – and essential in the spread of MLV - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From http://www.pnas.org/content/107/20/9364.abstract (MLV glycosylated-Gag is an infectivity factor that rescues Nef-deficient HIV-1)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Analysis of MLV deletion mutations identified glycosylated gag (glycogag) as the factor that rescues Nef-defective HIV-1 virions. Glycogag was also demonstrated to be required for the infectivity of MLV virions produced in lymphoid cells. Direct comparison of Nef and glycogag revealed identical dependence for activity on Env-pseudotype and producer cell type. The two proteins colocalize within cells, and both increase the yield of viral cDNA in target cells. The functional similarity of Nef and glycogag is a compelling example of convergent evolution in which two structurally unrelated proteins provide a function necessary for virion infectivity in lymphoid cells.”[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The leader sequence is a portion of genetic material (RNA) that precedes the specific sequences that defining the gag region of the virus. What Racaniello was saying is that Alter found a form of MLV sequence that indicates a highly infective and efficient retrovirus.
[/FONT]

Thanks a lot.

 

[Boule de feu]

My brain fog is way too bad to make sense of all of this, but it is my impression Dr. Racaniello is referring to contamination that could have been incorporated in vaccines or other man-made products. Unfortunately, they did not elaborate on this subject, so we won't know unless someone asks them the question. It would have been interesting to hear what they had to say on this topic.

I was happy that nobody mentioned anything about CFS being all in the mind or psychological... No doubt now in their minds that CFS is related to something very "physiological". Too bad though that my GP has never heard of XMRV (I mentioned it this morning while seeing him in his office - he went on saying to be very careful with anything that is written on the internet - sigh! - I replied that Dr Alter is the one who found the hepatitis C virus. He was quite surprised.)

 

[xrayspex]

boule de feu
that is hilarious (and sad at same time) about doc saying be careful of what you read on the internet
I have heard that one in the past too by one pompous pain doc, fired him
I asked him what is wrong with the National Inquirer? Aliens could have abducted and infected me, it was a government experiment that went wrong originally, the epicenter was Roswell, NM.....oh wait, never mind I am not supposed to talk about it

 

[Boule de feu]

boule de feu
that is hilarious (and sad at same time) about doc saying be careful of what you read on the internet
I have heard that one in the past too by one pompous pain doc, fired him
I asked him what is wrong with the National Inquirer? Aliens could have abducted and infected me, it was a government experiment that went wrong originally, the epicenter was Roswell, NM.....oh wait, never mind I am not supposed to talk about it

LOL ! You crack me up ! I had a good laugh today and that's very good for the soul. Thank you.

Just to let you know... my doctor is a very good doctor and he is doing everything he can to help me but I believe he does not have the time to do all the research. I'm sure that he wrote himself a note to see what XMRV is. Usually, this is how it goes: He tells me he doesn't know something but the next time I see him, he knows a lot more than I do. This is what will happen with XMRV. He'll have something very interesting to say next time I see him.

He is not perfect, but I like the fact that he is open-minded. We did talk about anti-virals and if they would be a good option for me. So, I think I just need to do the research for him and I will be fine... eventually. =-)

 

[George]

Hey dang nice explanation CBS. This is going to be a big part of what get's figured out where I suspect down the road.

Now what blew me away was the part about the lab mice. Some of you have read my old mouse theory where I blame Mr. Little founder of Jackson laboratories for the XMRV entering into the human population. (grins)

I was reading up on the 129 strain and notice that it was originally breed at Columbia University and that Jackson Laboratory's did not obtain the strain until 1945 and again in 1948 after the Bar Harbor Fire.

However Mr. Little may not be off the hook completely. Little established the original DBA strain which has been cross bread into the C57 Black mouse strain and there are Parent strains of the 129 strain which have been breed with the C57 black strain.

With a 100% identically to XMRV found in the 129 strain it is conceivable that the origin of the PMRV's was the original DBA strain however cross breeding subsequently created a Xenotropic strain of the virus or perhaps once the virus made the zoonoisis to human the mutation to Xenotropisium happened their.

The one thing that concerns me however is that if you allow that XMRV is transmissible in the same manner that HTLV and HIV are transmissible, and if the current number of infected persons are correct (apprx. average at 4% for a total of 268 million people) and if the starting date is 1920 when Mr. Little first began shipping inbreed strains of lab mice (the original DBA strain) to Hospital and Medical Collages then;

Some slight adjustments would need to be made to the original calculations in order for the numbers to add up.

I originally started with an incidence of 12 to 20 infected individuals. Most likely med students. However in order to reach the new numbers the original number of infected individuals world wide it would have had to start out with 24 to 40 persons infected. Nearly double. (scenario 1)

or add in a low additional infection rate via other body fluids of around .0034 percent. This would start with the original number in the original time frame but add the additional percentage for possible infection from time to time via, lung or sinus effluvia or urine or feces This would be really unlikely however because the virus is very fragile and would not survive more than seconds outside of body fluids. (scenario 2)

or perhaps an "event" of some sort that infected a larger number of people at some point in time, i.e. a single set of infected vaccines that added additional infected persons to the population say around 1960 or 1970 adding as few as 100 persons in that time frame could account for the additional numbers. (scenario 3)


I have to say that I take everything Rancelleo says with a grain of salt. This is the guy who speculated on possible transmission from mice poop. Which is not possible with a retrovirus. But if he is correct about the viral strains matching laboratory mice virus then I'm really surprised. Not surprised about a mouse event at the begin of the 20th century from inbreed mouse strains but that anyone, anywhere would admit to the virus coming from lab mice period. (big grins)

 

[Boule de feu]

Hey dang nice explanation CBS. This is going to be a big part of what get's figured out where I suspect down the road.

Now what blew me away was the part about the lab mice. Some of you have read my old mouse theory where I blame Mr. Little founder of Jackson laboratories for the XMRV entering into the human population. (grins)

I was reading up on the 129 strain and notice that it was originally breed at Columbia University and that Jackson Laboratory's did not obtain the strain until 1945 and again in 1948 after the Bar Harbor Fire.

However Mr. Little may not be off the hook completely. Little established the original DBA strain which has been cross bread into the C57 Black mouse strain and there are Parent strains of the 129 strain which have been breed with the C57 black strain.

With a 100% identically to XMRV found in the 129 strain it is conceivable that the origin of the PMRV's was the original DBA strain however cross breeding subsequently created a Xenotropic strain of the virus or perhaps once the virus made the zoonoisis to human the mutation to Xenotropisium happened their.

The one thing that concerns me however is that if you allow that XMRV is transmissible in the same manner that HTLV and HIV are transmissible, and if the current number of infected persons are correct (apprx. average at 4% for a total of 268 million people) and if the starting date is 1920 when Mr. Little first began shipping inbreed strains of lab mice (the original DBA strain) to Hospital and Medical Collages then;

Some slight adjustments would need to be made to the original calculations in order for the numbers to add up.

I originally started with an incidence of 12 to 20 infected individuals. Most likely med students. However in order to reach the new numbers the original number of infected individuals world wide it would have had to start out with 24 to 40 persons infected. Nearly double. (scenario 1)

or add in a low additional infection rate via other body fluids of around .0034 percent. This would start with the original number in the original time frame but add the additional percentage for possible infection from time to time via, lung or sinus effluvia or urine or feces This would be really unlikely however because the virus is very fragile and would not survive more than seconds outside of body fluids. (scenario 2)

or perhaps an "event" of some sort that infected a larger number of people at some point in time, i.e. a single set of infected vaccines that added additional infected persons to the population say around 1960 or 1970 adding as few as 100 persons in that time frame could account for the additional numbers. (scenario 3)


I have to say that I take everything Rancelleo says with a grain of salt. This is the guy who speculated on possible transmission from mice poop. Which is not possible with a retrovirus. But if he is correct about the viral strains matching laboratory mice virus then I'm really surprised. Not surprised about a mouse event at the begin of the 20th century from inbreed mouse strains but that anyone, anywhere would admit to the virus coming from lab mice period. (big grins)

Scenario one would make sense and would coincide with the epidemics - like the Royal Free Hospital (and others which happened sooner).

Scenario 3: Polio vaccine (1952), maybe?

 

[Hope123]

I have to say that I take everything Rancelleo says with a grain of salt. This is the guy who speculated on possible transmission from mice poop. Which is not possible with a retrovirus.

I don't follow Rancanciello that much and I agree with taking everything with a grain of salt that he says but by that same philosophy, I would take your other statements with a grain of salt. Why is it not possible with a retrovirus? Just because we haven't seen it with the retroviruses we know to date doesn't mean it couldn't happen. We could says it's less likely but with a new retrovirus, I hope scientists keep their minds open. New scientific theories are sometimes considered nonsense when first discussed but in hindsight, suddenly, it seems obvious.

Secondly the comment about "mouse poop" should also be placed in some context. I don't know where he said it in his blogs/ broadcast but in infectious disease, there are a number of diseases transmitted from mice, rabbits, other animals to humans through contact or inhalation of bacteria/ viruses from animal fur/ feathers/ urine/ feces. A more recent example of this is hantavirus, which can kill people who have inhaled the virus from mouse droppings. Anthrax was originally called woolsorters' disease because the workers would inhale spores from sheep.

 

[urbantravels]

FeLV can certainly be spread via litter box. And that's not only a retrovirus, but a gammaretrovirus.

 

[George]

Hi Hope
My advice is ignore everything I write. (big grins)

 

[Boule de feu]

I don't follow Rancanciello that much and I agree with taking everything with a grain of salt that he says but by that same philosophy, I would take your other statements with a grain of salt. Why is it not possible with a retrovirus? Just because we haven't seen it with the retroviruses we know to date doesn't mean it couldn't happen. We could says it's less likely but with a new retrovirus, I hope scientists keep their minds open. New scientific theories are sometimes considered nonsense when first discussed but in hindsight, suddenly, it seems obvious.

Dr Jolicoeur (retrovirologist working in the field for 30 years) said something along those lines during his presentation on XMRV - June 20:

You can be all alone in your field and be right. Gregor Mendell, the botanist who discovered the genetic laws was the only one believing it for more than 60 years. Everyone was making fun of him. Research finally showed that he was right and today, he is known as the father of genetics.

So, I agree, we have to keep our minds open... about everything and anything...

 

[Boule de feu]

Hi Hope
My advice is ignore everything I write. (big grins)

Everything you write is sooooooo interesting.
For puppy's sake, don't stop writing!

 

[xrayspex]

Boule de feu
glad to make you smile! also glad you like yr doc, it helps.

george, wow whatever you are talking about might as well be aliens to me, is there some more comprehensive explanation of yr theory about lab mice and cfs somewhere, a link? I didnt run across it before that I recall.

 

[*GG*]

boule de feu
that is hilarious (and sad at same time) about doc saying be careful of what you read on the internet
I have heard that one in the past too by one pompous pain doc, fired him
I asked him what is wrong with the National Inquirer? Aliens could have abducted and infected me, it was a government experiment that went wrong originally, the epicenter was Roswell, NM.....oh wait, never mind I am not supposed to talk about it

Hey, the National Enquirer does get some things right. Look at the Jon Edwards story! He was having an affair/baby with another women and they broke this 1 year before anyone else! So don't totally dismiss them, perhaps they are changing their stripes!

Hopefully not to much, because I love to read the other "crazy" stories they put on the !st page!

 

[*GG*]

LOL ! You crack me up ! I had a good laugh today and that's very good for the soul. Thank you.

Just to let you know... my doctor is a very good doctor and he is doing everything he can to help me but I believe he does not have the time to do all the research. I'm sure that he wrote himself a note to see what XMRV is. Usually, this is how it goes: He tells me he doesn't know something but the next time I see him, he knows a lot more than I do. This is what will happen with XMRV. He'll have something very interesting to say next time I see him.

He is not perfect, but I like the fact that he is open-minded. We did talk about anti-virals and if they would be a good option for me. So, I think I just need to do the research for him and I will be fine... eventually. =-)

Good to hear! Just curious, do you email access to your Dr(s) in the Great North?

So when is your next appointment, if you don't mind me asking? Don't respond to this if it is to personal.

 

[Boule de feu]

Good to hear! Just curious, do you email access to your Dr(s) in the Great North?

So when is your next appointment, if you don't mind me asking? Don't respond to this if it is to personal.

I am not living in the Great North... lol
and no, I can't e-mail him (maybe others do but I never got his e-mail address).

I believe I see him in November. I just hope he comes up with: "Did you know that a new virus was found?"... we'll see.

 

[*GG*]

I guess Canadiens do not consider themselves in the Great North. What do you "guys" define as the Great North? the Artic Circle?

 

[Boule de feu]

I guess Canadiens do not consider themselves in the Great North. What do you "guys" define as the Great North? the Artic Circle?

Yes, the Arctic is the "real" North for me. But, I can understand why you would say something like that...

 

[Mya Symons]

Mice Used to Grow Viruses in Brain and for Quality Control

I found this here: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/Animal_alternatives/vaccines.htm
I thought it was interesting in that it relates to how HGRV might have got from the lab mouse they speak of in the TWiV podcast to humans. Sorry if this is already posted somewhere

Virus Vaccines
The production of a viral vaccine is broadly similar to that of a bacterial vaccine, involving seed lot, purification, concentration, and packaging, followed by freeze-drying. Viruses are propagated in cells of animal or human origin. In the past, viruses were cultured in vivo,as in the production of smallpox virus on the brains of mice. Since 1949, primary cell cultures have largely been produced using in vitro methods.

Quality Control
In vaccine production, mice are used most extensively for quality control. Vaccine formulations include constituents such as living tissues, viruses and bacteria. Thus, since all vaccine batches are not the same, their content and effects must be tested regularly at selected stages of production to monitor safety, as required by federal regulations.

 

[Boule de feu]

I found this here: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/Animal_alternatives/vaccines.htm
I thought it was interesting in that it relates to how HGRV might have got from the lab mouse they speak of in the TWiV podcast to humans. Sorry if this is already posted somewhere

Virus Vaccines
The production of a viral vaccine is broadly similar to that of a bacterial vaccine, involving seed lot, purification, concentration, and packaging, followed by freeze-drying. Viruses are propagated in cells of animal or human origin. In the past, viruses were cultured in vivo,as in the production of smallpox virus on the brains of mice. Since 1949, primary cell cultures have largely been produced using in vitro methods.

Quality Control
In vaccine production, mice are used most extensively for quality control. Vaccine formulations include constituents such as living tissues, viruses and bacteria. Thus, since all vaccine batches are not the same, their content and effects must be tested regularly at selected stages of production to monitor safety, as required by federal regulations.

This is so interesting!

Wouldn't it be a bummer to find out that all this time they were making vaccines to prevent all kinds of diseases but it would turn out that the vaccines themselves were the propagating factor for some mysterious diseases? Nobody could figure it out until the WPI came along? This is what we will read in medical textbooks in 2020!
When looking back at this, our grandchildren will say: "Can you imagine how stupid they were? Why would they do such a thing?"

 

[George]

Sorry I took so long to get back here

My Old Mouse Theory Edit Blog Entry
on July 15th, 2010 at 01:41 PM (599 Views)

O.k. first what do we know about epidemics or pandemics? We know that air born virus' spread very quickly. The H1N1 took 7 months to go world wide. We know that in the case of HIV it took between 60 and 70 years for it to become a pandemic. (Basically 1915 to 1975/85.)

HIV is spread both through sexual contact, and passed via blood from mother to child or in the case of transfusions. It's estimated that it took around 10 to 20 people being infected with SIV originaly in order for the virus to mutate and effectively infect humans hence it became HIV.

The human HIV infection is traced to bush hunters along the African coast who hunted and killed monkey's for meat to sell. By butchering the monkeys into meat they came in contact with large quantities of blood. These individuals were usually single men who often made stops in ports or cities to sell the meat. They passed the HIV on to whomever they had intercourse with. And those individuals passed it on and so on and so on. Most of these individuals were sexually active with multiple partners and so were able to keep the virus alive by passing it on before becoming sick and dying.

So using that information how can we extrapolate the spread of XMRV with high rates of cases showing up in the 1980's? Well what do we know about XMRV to date?

We know for a fact that XMRV is transmittable in male semen as noted in the study

Fibrils of Prostatic Acid Phosphatase Fragments Boost Infections with XMRV (Xenotropic Murine Leukemia Virus-Related Virus), a Human Retrovirus Associated with Prostate Cancer Received 6 February 2009/ Accepted 21 April 2009 by the journal of Virology

The study states ;

1. Furthermore, XMRV RNA was detected in prostatic secretions of some men with prostate cancer. The fact that the precursor of SEVI is produced in abundance by the prostate indicates that XMRV replication occurs in an environment that provides a natural enhancer of viral infection, and this may play a role in the spread of this virus in the human population.

We don't know if it is spread via vaginal fluids at this time since a study has not been done on this but I would think it a pretty good bet that it does.

We know for certain that it spreads via blood and blood sera or plasma based on

Detection of an Infectious Retrovirus, XMRV, in Blood Cells of Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

The study states

We next investigated whether the viral proteins detected in PBMCs from CFS patients represent infectious XMRV. Activated lymphocytes. . . as well as virus preparations from these cells (Fig. 3C), revealed 90- to 100-nm-diameter budding particles consistent with a gamma (type C) retrovirus.

We also found that XMRV could be transmitted from CFS patient plasma to LNCaP cells when we applied a virus centrifugation protocol to enhance infectivity (6, 14, 15). Both XMRV gp70 Env and p30 Gag were abundantly expressed in LNCaP cells incubated with plasma samples from 10 of 12 CFS patients, whereas no viral protein expression was detected in LNCaP cells incubated with plasma samples from 12 healthy donors (Fig. 4A). Likewise, LNCaP cells incubated with patient plasma tested positive for XMRV p30 Gag in IFC assays (fig. S5B). We also observed cell-free transmission of XMRV from the PBMCs of CFS patients to the T cell line SupT1 (Fig. 4B) and both primary and secondary
transmission of cell-free virus from the activated T cells of CFS patients to normal T cell cultures. Together, these results suggest that both cell-associated and cell-free transmission of CFS-associated XMRV are possible.

We don't know if XMRV is spread via saliva since no study has been done on this. HIV is not transmissible through saliva or casual contact so most likely the XMRV retrovirus won't be either. And while we do know that it is present in the respiratory tract (so is HIV) we don't know if it is transmissible this way. If it's like HTLV-1/2 and HIV-1/2 then it won't be airborn. Plus based on the total number of cases currently 17 million ill and over 180 million infected it would have to have become airborn in the early 2000's (look at the spread of H1N1) And we know that it goes back to at least 1934 and possibly to 1850.

Base on the information coming from the founding fathers and mothers of this retrovirus we are hearing that a cofactor is needed to activate the XMRV into an participant in XAND related illnesses. (CFS/ME, autism, atypical MS, cancer, and possibly others) So each of us had to have had the XMRV retrovirus before we were hit by another virus say EBV which activated the XMRV.

The way I understand it the activating virus is stimulated the immune system thus providing host T,B, and NK cells. XMRV likes those cell especially for replication. So EBV or which ever virus provided the opportunity for the XMRV to replicate. That replication process is why those infected never got better.





Most of us are familiar with the X graph.

My speculation is that when you are hit by a normal everyday virus that would normally not be a problem for you to deal with, what is actually happening is that you are creating homes for XMRV to move into and raise some kids. And they never leave.

If the HIV pandemic took around 60 to 70 years to infect enough people to become noticeable in the general population then it's not too much of a stretch to figure that the same rate might apply to XMRV. The XMRV became noticeable in the 1980 and was still noticeable in the 1990's. Meaning by the 1980's a good portion of the population had the virus. So if you are sharing the flu bug in your office then it would stand to reason that a number of individuals in your office would come down with a XAND illness sometimes known as CFS.

Right now there are possibly 10 million American walking around with XMRV just waiting for the right event to trigger them. My guess is that some of those people will never come down with anything. Some may have stronger immune systems, the right set of genetics to fight it off or perhaps less of a viral load. These are the dark areas that need the light of many studies to say for sure.

The next question of how did we all become infected and why were their so many outbreaks in the 80's. I have a theory on that and it's just theory but try it out and see if it fits. Most of the PhD people start the outbreaks in 1934 at Los Angeles General Hospital. I've seen some theory's that go back to 1850 but most start with 1934 and work their way forward.

Remember that it was between 1975 and 1985 that the HIV pandemic peaked approximately 60 to 70 years after the initial jump of SIV to human HIV. Which puts the initial infections of HIV to somewhere between 1890 and 1915. Now if XMRV followed something like the same path and we look between 60 to 70 years from the peak outbreak years you are look around 1915 to 1930 for an event that would allow for XMRV a variant of MLV or mouse virus to enter the human population undetected and be passed on and on an on. So what was that event?

I found a good article here that may explain how the jump in species occurred.

I'll quote from the article

It all starts in 1900 with Abbie E.C. Lathrop of Granby, Mass. Lathrop was a 32-year-old former schoolteacher who had moved to Granby around that time with the notion of starting a poultry farm. That soon flopped, and she switched from chickens to rodents, hoping to cash in on the Victorian craze for "fancy" mice.

At around the same time a Harvard University zoologist named William Castle ordered mice to begin working on genetic experiments. He was a leader in his field at the time. However the man who would ultimately solidify the mouse as perfect for genetic and laboratory testing was one of Castle's undergraduate students, Clarence Cook Little.

Little's innovation was the "inbred strain." By mating brother to sister over and over, he created rodents that were genetically alike. In fact, after 20 generations the mice were nearly 99 percent identical. In 1909 he created the first inbred strain, dba, which is still used in research. Before inbred strains, scientists couldn't say for certain whether their results were because of the genetic quirks of a particular mouse or the experiments.

Is it possible then that one or more of these "inbred strains" carried a mutated form of MLV which would remain unnamed for a century? I don't know for a fact that this is the case however I do know that these mice where shipped to hundreds of laboratories and research facilities around the US and world. by 1929 bigger and better mouse holding facilities were needed. Little persuaded auto industry tycoons Edsel Ford (son of Henry) and Roscoe Jackson, chief of Hudson Motorcar Co., to finance an independent research facility, Jackson Laboratory, near one of their favorite vacation spots, Bar Harbor, Maine. Mouse research bloomed. Pasted from

Now the first outbreak is usually figured as the Los Angeles County General Hospital so let's look at that.

In 1896 USC medical school and teaching facility opened it closed from lack of funds in 1910 and reopened in 1928. It was affiliated with Los Angeles County General Hospital which opened a new modern county hospital on State Street in 1933 in what is today the Los Angeles County and USC Medical Center.

So the theory would go like this. . .

Much like the HIV infection of bush hunters, XMRV infected between 10 and 20 persons in the Los Angeles county hospital by way of the USC teaching and research facility and probably many more persons. The XMRV retrovirus lays dormant in the population being passed on and on, including future generations of children. Until, it is activated by a Co-infection. Hence the 1934 outbreak at L.A. General. Since then hundreds of thousands of people have become infected around the world we now have a pandemic. Manifesting in a variety of ways based on genetic predisposition.

My family is from LA originally and both my mother and I were born at L.A. General hospital. My mother had uterine cancer at age 28. She was diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder in her 30's. She came down with lymphoma at 39 and died at age 47 in 1991.

Me I've enjoyed perfect health all my life. Hiking, Biking and generally enjoying all that life has to offer. When I decided to go into teaching at age 36 that's when I started getting sick. Every time I got the "illness of the year" that was going around, Mono or flu or what ever I became a little weaker until finally I got sick and didn't recover at all.

So anyway that's my Outbreak theory. Colonel Mustard in the Library with a candle stick!!!

This needs some updating in light of new information but I'm having problems finding the source of Vince's statement about 100% match with either XMRV or a PLMV in the 129 mouse strain. Anybody out there know where he got this from???

I'd really appreciate any links, I'm at a dead end tracing it. Thanks.