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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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Messages
69
I have written a book about what I believe causes extreme thirst in ME/CFS. The book is available (and always will be available) as a free download from its website. It can also be found on Amazon.

There is a lot to unpack with this book. I will summarise its main arguments as best as I can. Anyone who wants 'the short version', as it were, is encouraged to go to the book's website and read the blurb there.

Why is Thirst Happening in ME/CFS

- ME/CFS patients are often chronically thirsty. Online forums are full of threads discussing this symptom. The most typical symptom presentation involves unquenchable thirst, dilute urine and a tendency towards (mild or sometimes profound) hyponatraemia. Similarly, a recent Long Covid research survey of almost 10,000 patients (Thaweethai et al., ‘Development of a Definition of Post-acute Sequelae of SARS-CoV-2 Infection’, 2023), found that over a third of LC patients report extreme thirst as one of their main symptoms. The story is similar with POTS patients. Why exactly this thirst might be happening has not yet been mapped out however.

- My hypothesis proposes that this thirst represents a new and previously unappreciated kind of polydipsia: 'hypovolemic thirst'.

- The brain actually has two, separate thirst centres: osmotic (water-based thirst) and hypovolemic (triggered when plasma volume drops by 10%, salt + water appetite). And we know that ME/CFS patients are often hypovolemic, largely due to the suppression of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone axis (a hormonal axis concerned with maintaining salt levels). This hypovolemia can be mild or profound (in Visser and Van Campen's 2018 study ‘Blood Volume Status in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Relation to Complaints’, it was found that ME/CFS patients with orthostatic intolerance had a mean total blood volume reduction of 23%, or around 1.2 litres less than the physiological norm). As a result, it is theoretically possible that the thirst in ME/CFS stems from the triggering of the hypovolemic thirst centre in response to the endogenous hypovolemia that the illness creates.

- Why does this 'hypovolemic thirst' create the aforementioned typical clinical presentation of dilute urine, hyponatraemia and unquenchable thirst? Essentially because the patient is understandably applying the wrong solution to their problem: they just drink water in response to the thirst they feel. The hypovolemic thirst centre can never be quenched by water alone, however. Blood is salty stuff, after all.

- I believe that the sequence of events is this:

RAA axis suppression >>> increased solute loss >>> state of low blood volume created and maintained >>> triggering of hypovolemic thirst centre once plasma volume drops by 10% >>> this is asking for appropriately concentrated fluids but the patient understandably just drinks pure water in response to their thirst >>> water is just urinated out and blood volume remains low >>> thirst remains and so vicious cycle develops

The thirst remains unquenchable as the wrong solution is being applied to the problem; the urine is dilute due to the amount being ingested and the hyponatraemia develops for two reasons: the amount of water consumed and because of the RAA-axis suppression and associated solute loss

- I believe that a better way of treating this thirst is to stop drinking pure water (for the most part) and switch entirely to drinking Oral Rehydration Solution. These sachets rely on the sodium-glucose co-transporter in the gut and effectively boost blood volume, as was shown in a study by Medow (Medow et al., ‘The Benefits of Oral Rehydration Solution on Children with POTS’, 2019.). I believe that it is best, in the main, only to drink ORS as drinking large amounts of pure water will counteract their effect. It is better if the vast majority of fluid consumed is also boosting plasma volume.

- NB: There may be other reasons for thirst in the illness - there probably are - but I think the major reason, the cause of extreme thirst, is likely to be the hypovolemia.

Challenging Psychogenic Water Drinking, aka 'Primary Polydipsia'

-The primary purpose of the book is actually to challenge a condition called 'Primary Polydipsia' or 'Psychogenic Water Drinking'. This condition is currently believed to involve drinking enormous amounts of fluid in the absence of any physiological need and purely because of mental ill-health.

- Despite the fact that 'Primary Polydipsia' is taught about to all medical students, it has actually received very little research. It is currently regarded as something of a medical mystery: its cause is considered to be unknown but, nevertheless, it is also typically regarded as a psychological problem (sound familiar?).

- Primary Polydipsia was first conceptualised back in the 1930s, 40s and 50s. The papers from those times are happy to attribute the disorder to such Freudian staples as: troubled childhoods, not having enough sex, female hysteria, homosexuality, conversion disorders and delusional hypochondriasis and just, in general, to being emotionally disturbed. All of the central diagnostic tests and physiological assumptions about the condition stemmed from that time: they have never been challenged since. In fact, with some minor changes around the edges, the physiological teaching about Primary Polydipsia is the same now as it was 60 years ago.

- While some people do drink excessive water for psychological reasons, those patients don't tend to experience thirst as a motivator. However, the vast majority of so-called psychogenic water drinkers do say that their primary motivator is extreme thirst.

-It is my belief that what has always been termed 'psychogenic water drinking' has, in the main, been 'hypovolemic dehydration' by another name

- I say this for several reasons.

First, because the typical clinical presentation in so-called Primary Polydipsia is the exact same as what one would expect to see in hypovolemic thirst: dilute urine and hyponatraemia, only that in teaching about Primary Polydipsia it is assumed that these clinical features develop purely because of drinking too much water in the absence of any physiological need. In contrast, the theory I am putting forward can explain these symptoms as stemming from the patient understandably applying the wrong solution to their hypovolemic thirst as well as from the RAA-axis induced solute loss.

Secondly, when you strip the early papers of their Freudian jargon, it is clear that the patients in question were actually suffering from ME/CFS. They 'experienced breathlessness on exertion', 'ached everywhere' and (as the authors put it at the time) had 'hysterical weakness of the legs'. And they developed their health complaints after physiological, medical or psychological traumas.

Thirdly, the hypovolemic thirst centre was not discovered until the 1960s, long after the idea of psychogenic water drinking had taken hold. It could have explained the symptoms from the beginning but early attempts to understand these symptoms were hampered by not having enough information. As a result, a psychogenic cause was assumed: the same old, hubristic error we have seen in so many other cases.

- Prof. Daniel Bichet, a professor of medicine at the University of Montreal, is one of the few medical researchers to have expressed a note of caution about the supposedly psychogenic nature of Primary Polydipsia. Writing in 2017, he said: 'The diagnosis of compulsive water drinking must be made with care and may represent our ignorance of yet undescribed pathophysiological mechanisms'. Primary Polydipsia was always likely to be 'solved' by a blindspot in modern medicine. Has that blindspot been ME/CFS?

My Personal Story

-
While for some ME/CFS patients, thirst is an unpleasant, daily nuisance, I once suffered from this symptom at the more extreme end. From August 2020 until January 2021, my life descended into a nightmare of extreme thirst which often felt, and in fact was, life threatening. On 'good' days, my water intake was around 8 litres but if I crashed, that could jump up to 20 litres over a 24 hour period. At those times, I often thought that I was dying and I fought for the morning light (as sleep was not possible at such times). I had no idea why this nightmare was happening to me. I am still traumatised by that time and the severe symptoms I experienced.

- In January 2021, I was hospitalised with profound hyponatraemia of 116. This was enough to be in a hyponatraemia-induced coma or even dead but, although severely ill, I was still conscious. That week in hospital I was often treated as if I were an ICU patient (as my medical records later revealed) although in a standard ward (as ICU space was limited).

- I knew that I was being treated like a mental case throughout my stay. 'Don't drink water behind our back when you go to the toilet' and 'You are only in here because you were drinking so much water' were the kinds of things I was told. I even overheard a doctor and nurse laughing about my supposed diagnosis in the hallway. And yes, I was diagnosed with psychogenic polydipsia. Had I died, I would have had mental illness listed as the cause of death. I tried to tell the hospital team that ME/CFS patients were often thirsty, even if no one had mapped out exactly why. Everything I said about ME was ignored and my medical records later stated 'Patient admitted with self-diagnosed ME due to having non-specific symptoms'. (although I had been diagnosed a few years previously actually and had tried to explain post-exertional malaise).

- My blood sodium was normalised thanks to the hospital stay but as soon as I experienced my next crash, two weeks after leaving hospital, the extreme thirst returned. At that point, I learnt about the existence of the hypovolemic thirst centre and wondered if hypovolemia had been the cause of my thirst. I immediately went to the local pharmacy to buy some Oral Rehydration Solution and drank 600 ml of it. My thirst diminished hugely, the lights switched back on and I felt much better.

-Since that time, two and a half years ago, I have never needed to drink more than 3L per day. For someone who once suffered through 20 litres of fluid in a day, this still seems like a miracle to me.

My Hopes for the Book

-
That it might lead to research by ME/CFS researchers into the nature of thirst that occurs in ME/CFS patients, the validation of a new kind of polydipsia (hypovolemic dehydration) along with treatment guidelines so that patients can manage this symptom effectively (and without entering into the kind of, potentially fatal, nightmare that is possible at the more extreme end of the spectrum)

- That it will one day lead to the validation of 'hypovolemic dehydration' as a new kind of polydipsia and one that solves the mystery of so-called 'Primary Polydipsia' (at least in many cases), leading to the mitigation of suffering of those affected with this problem and the ending of current stigmatisation

- That, since Primary Polydipsia is currently taught routinely in medical school, it will have to be replaced / supplemented with teaching on hypovolemic thirst instead. This will necessarily also involve teaching about the core pathophysiological mechanisms in ME/CFS that create such a thirst. This will mean that no future medical student can be under any illusion as to just how serious ME/CFS actually is. In this way, medical minds of the future will be more open to the illness and more may turn their minds to researching it. Put simply: if Primary Polydipsia can be replaced by Hypovolemic Dehydration, then this represents a 'way in' for knowledge about ME/CFS to become more widespread in the medical profession.

I did come across a forum posting (unfortunately I can't find it now) where a carer wrote movingly about the death of a severe ME/CFS patient who had been in her care. The cause of death given was 'psychogenic polydipsia'. The carer however wrote that she knew this was not the case. At the moment, people with the problem of 'hypovolemic thirst' are being held responsible even for their own deaths. This is a medical travesty and it needs to change. I hope that my book can achieve that.

Please forward details of my book to anyone you think might like to read it. As I mentioned, it will always be available for free download on its website.
 
Messages
65
Location
UK
Interesting theory, and it correlates with the fact that there is such a huge overlap between POTS (a hypovolemic issue) and fatigue ME/CFS.

Other than drinking ORS, and all the other POTS interventions which aim to increase blood volume in various ways, are you aware of any other treatments or interventions for 'hypovolemic thirst'?
 
Messages
69
Interesting theory, and it correlates with the fact that there is such a huge overlap between POTS (a hypovolemic issue) and fatigue ME/CFS.

Other than drinking ORS, and all the other POTS interventions which aim to increase blood volume in various ways, are you aware of any other treatments or interventions for 'hypovolemic thirst'?
Thank you. Yes, both ME/CFS and POTS seem to have the same Renin-angiostensin-aldosterone suppression.

Apart from ORS, there are medications like Flurinef and Desmopressin. I also came across the use of erythropoietin as a treatment for POTS (a hormone that boosts red blood cell volume rather than plasma volume). B12 also seems to help some people as I think it as a role in increasing red blood cell volume as well.

In chapter three of the book, I have a section in which I collate forum posts of people saying what has helped them the most for their thirst. Really it is ORS, increased salt and Flurinef that are the most commonly helpful interventions.

Drinking animal blood might well be nature's 'natural solution' to the problem of hypovolemic thirst but that's not something I will probably ever try ;) The Maasai tribe in Tanzania though are regular blood drinkers - maybe they are onto something!
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,388
They 'experienced breathlessness on exertion', 'ached everywhere' and (as the authors put it at the time) had 'hysterical weakness of the legs'. And they developed their health complaints after physiological, medical or psychological traumas.
sounds extremely familiar.....

I do alot chinese traditional medicine

Dryness is a primary symptom of Yin Deficiency. I"m extremely Yin deficient. This imbalance in my case is genetic as well (I am a genetic red head). Yang is out of balance. Yang is overheating Yang is inflammatory.

Blood stagnation is also a component. And we have non deforming red blood cells, how perfect. Fibrin, clots, all that is blood stagnation.

Drinking water has little or no bearing on this dryness. I actually do not drink alot, because then I'd have to cope with it in my stomach, my kidneys, my bladder.

My salivary glands seem fine, it's my tongue and throat. Eyes. Skin.

At this moment, I"m having to have ice constantly, because my throat is so sore, and I got exposed to a cold, thats assaulting my throat. Ice more ice. My lungs are officially dry, and I take some herbs which help that a bit.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,388
The diagnosis of compulsive water drinking must be made with care and may represent our ignorance of yet undescribed pathophysiological mechanisms'

The moment I go out of the house, thats when my need for water grows exponentially.

I'll start choking, literally choking, at a doctor appointment, or in the middle of the dental procedure. Or if I have to do the talking.

anxiety associated with trips out, exacerbates the dryness, when I"m sick with ME- a bit more adrenaline, or a cup of coffee, dries me out remarkably. (I maybe have one tiny cup of weak coffee on a good day).

I'm sure I have Sjogrens, and so is my dentist, but I dunno what happened at the rheumatolglist, frankly. I don't seem to have ENUF Sjogrens to qualify.
 

Gijs

Senior Member
Messages
691
I have written a book about what I believe causes extreme thirst in ME/CFS. The book is available (and always will be available) as a free download from its website. It can also be found on Amazon.

There is a lot to unpack with this book. I will summarise its main arguments as best as I can. Anyone who wants 'the short version', as it were, is encouraged to go to the book's website and read the blurb there.

Why is Thirst Happening in ME/CFS

- ME/CFS patients are often chronically thirsty. Online forums are full of threads discussing this symptom. The most typical symptom presentation involves unquenchable thirst, dilute urine and a tendency towards (mild or sometimes profound) hyponatraemia. Similarly, a recent Long Covid research survey of almost 10,000 patients (Thaweethai et al., ‘Development of a Definition of Post-acute Sequelae of SARS-CoV-2 Infection’, 2023), found that over a third of LC patients report extreme thirst as one of their main symptoms. The story is similar with POTS patients. Why exactly this thirst might be happening has not yet been mapped out however.

- My hypothesis proposes that this thirst represents a new and previously unappreciated kind of polydipsia: 'hypovolemic thirst'.

- The brain actually has two, separate thirst centres: osmotic (water-based thirst) and hypovolemic (triggered when plasma volume drops by 10%, salt + water appetite). And we know that ME/CFS patients are often hypovolemic, largely due to the suppression of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone axis (a hormonal axis concerned with maintaining salt levels). This hypovolemia can be mild or profound (in Visser and Van Campen's 2018 study ‘Blood Volume Status in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Relation to Complaints’, it was found that ME/CFS patients with orthostatic intolerance had a mean total blood volume reduction of 23%, or around 1.2 litres less than the physiological norm). As a result, it is theoretically possible that the thirst in ME/CFS stems from the triggering of the hypovolemic thirst centre in response to the endogenous hypovolemia that the illness creates.

- Why does this 'hypovolemic thirst' create the aforementioned typical clinical presentation of dilute urine, hyponatraemia and unquenchable thirst? Essentially because the patient is understandably applying the wrong solution to their problem: they just drink water in response to the thirst they feel. The hypovolemic thirst centre can never be quenched by water alone, however. Blood is salty stuff, after all.

- I believe that the sequence of events is this:

RAA axis suppression >>> increased solute loss >>> state of low blood volume created and maintained >>> triggering of hypovolemic thirst centre once plasma volume drops by 10% >>> this is asking for appropriately concentrated fluids but the patient understandably just drinks pure water in response to their thirst >>> water is just urinated out and blood volume remains low >>> thirst remains and so vicious cycle develops

The thirst remains unquenchable as the wrong solution is being applied to the problem; the urine is dilute due to the amount being ingested and the hyponatraemia develops for two reasons: the amount of water consumed and because of the RAA-axis suppression and associated solute loss

- I believe that a better way of treating this thirst is to stop drinking pure water (for the most part) and switch entirely to drinking Oral Rehydration Solution. These sachets rely on the sodium-glucose co-transporter in the gut and effectively boost blood volume, as was shown in a study by Medow (Medow et al., ‘The Benefits of Oral Rehydration Solution on Children with POTS’, 2019.). I believe that it is best, in the main, only to drink ORS as drinking large amounts of pure water will counteract their effect. It is better if the vast majority of fluid consumed is also boosting plasma volume.

- NB: There may be other reasons for thirst in the illness - there probably are - but I think the major reason, the cause of extreme thirst, is likely to be the hypovolemia.

Challenging Psychogenic Water Drinking, aka 'Primary Polydipsia'

-The primary purpose of the book is actually to challenge a condition called 'Primary Polydipsia' or 'Psychogenic Water Drinking'. This condition is currently believed to involve drinking enormous amounts of fluid in the absence of any physiological need and purely because of mental ill-health.

- Despite the fact that 'Primary Polydipsia' is taught about to all medical students, it has actually received very little research. It is currently regarded as something of a medical mystery: its cause is considered to be unknown but, nevertheless, it is also typically regarded as a psychological problem (sound familiar?).

- Primary Polydipsia was first conceptualised back in the 1930s, 40s and 50s. The papers from those times are happy to attribute the disorder to such Freudian staples as: troubled childhoods, not having enough sex, female hysteria, homosexuality, conversion disorders and delusional hypochondriasis and just, in general, to being emotionally disturbed. All of the central diagnostic tests and physiological assumptions about the condition stemmed from that time: they have never been challenged since. In fact, with some minor changes around the edges, the physiological teaching about Primary Polydipsia is the same now as it was 60 years ago.

- While some people do drink excessive water for psychological reasons, those patients don't tend to experience thirst as a motivator. However, the vast majority of so-called psychogenic water drinkers do say that their primary motivator is extreme thirst.

-It is my belief that what has always been termed 'psychogenic water drinking' has, in the main, been 'hypovolemic dehydration' by another name

- I say this for several reasons.

First, because the typical clinical presentation in so-called Primary Polydipsia is the exact same as what one would expect to see in hypovolemic thirst: dilute urine and hyponatraemia, only that in teaching about Primary Polydipsia it is assumed that these clinical features develop purely because of drinking too much water in the absence of any physiological need. In contrast, the theory I am putting forward can explain these symptoms as stemming from the patient understandably applying the wrong solution to their hypovolemic thirst as well as from the RAA-axis induced solute loss.

Secondly, when you strip the early papers of their Freudian jargon, it is clear that the patients in question were actually suffering from ME/CFS. They 'experienced breathlessness on exertion', 'ached everywhere' and (as the authors put it at the time) had 'hysterical weakness of the legs'. And they developed their health complaints after physiological, medical or psychological traumas.

Thirdly, the hypovolemic thirst centre was not discovered until the 1960s, long after the idea of psychogenic water drinking had taken hold. It could have explained the symptoms from the beginning but early attempts to understand these symptoms were hampered by not having enough information. As a result, a psychogenic cause was assumed: the same old, hubristic error we have seen in so many other cases.

- Prof. Daniel Bichet, a professor of medicine at the University of Montreal, is one of the few medical researchers to have expressed a note of caution about the supposedly psychogenic nature of Primary Polydipsia. Writing in 2017, he said: 'The diagnosis of compulsive water drinking must be made with care and may represent our ignorance of yet undescribed pathophysiological mechanisms'. Primary Polydipsia was always likely to be 'solved' by a blindspot in modern medicine. Has that blindspot been ME/CFS?

My Personal Story

-
While for some ME/CFS patients, thirst is an unpleasant, daily nuisance, I once suffered from this symptom at the more extreme end. From August 2020 until January 2021, my life descended into a nightmare of extreme thirst which often felt, and in fact was, life threatening. On 'good' days, my water intake was around 8 litres but if I crashed, that could jump up to 20 litres over a 24 hour period. At those times, I often thought that I was dying and I fought for the morning light (as sleep was not possible at such times). I had no idea why this nightmare was happening to me. I am still traumatised by that time and the severe symptoms I experienced.

- In January 2021, I was hospitalised with profound hyponatraemia of 116. This was enough to be in a hyponatraemia-induced coma or even dead but, although severely ill, I was still conscious. That week in hospital I was often treated as if I were an ICU patient (as my medical records later revealed) although in a standard ward (as ICU space was limited).

- I knew that I was being treated like a mental case throughout my stay. 'Don't drink water behind our back when you go to the toilet' and 'You are only in here because you were drinking so much water' were the kinds of things I was told. I even overheard a doctor and nurse laughing about my supposed diagnosis in the hallway. And yes, I was diagnosed with psychogenic polydipsia. Had I died, I would have had mental illness listed as the cause of death. I tried to tell the hospital team that ME/CFS patients were often thirsty, even if no one had mapped out exactly why. Everything I said about ME was ignored and my medical records later stated 'Patient admitted with self-diagnosed ME due to having non-specific symptoms'. (although I had been diagnosed a few years previously actually and had tried to explain post-exertional malaise).

- My blood sodium was normalised thanks to the hospital stay but as soon as I experienced my next crash, two weeks after leaving hospital, the extreme thirst returned. At that point, I learnt about the existence of the hypovolemic thirst centre and wondered if hypovolemia had been the cause of my thirst. I immediately went to the local pharmacy to buy some Oral Rehydration Solution and drank 600 ml of it. My thirst diminished hugely, the lights switched back on and I felt much better.

-Since that time, two and a half years ago, I have never needed to drink more than 3L per day. For someone who once suffered through 20 litres of fluid in a day, this still seems like a miracle to me.

My Hopes for the Book

-
That it might lead to research by ME/CFS researchers into the nature of thirst that occurs in ME/CFS patients, the validation of a new kind of polydipsia (hypovolemic dehydration) along with treatment guidelines so that patients can manage this symptom effectively (and without entering into the kind of, potentially fatal, nightmare that is possible at the more extreme end of the spectrum)

- That it will one day lead to the validation of 'hypovolemic dehydration' as a new kind of polydipsia and one that solves the mystery of so-called 'Primary Polydipsia' (at least in many cases), leading to the mitigation of suffering of those affected with this problem and the ending of current stigmatisation

- That, since Primary Polydipsia is currently taught routinely in medical school, it will have to be replaced / supplemented with teaching on hypovolemic thirst instead. This will necessarily also involve teaching about the core pathophysiological mechanisms in ME/CFS that create such a thirst. This will mean that no future medical student can be under any illusion as to just how serious ME/CFS actually is. In this way, medical minds of the future will be more open to the illness and more may turn their minds to researching it. Put simply: if Primary Polydipsia can be replaced by Hypovolemic Dehydration, then this represents a 'way in' for knowledge about ME/CFS to become more widespread in the medical profession.

I did come across a forum posting (unfortunately I can't find it now) where a carer wrote movingly about the death of a severe ME/CFS patient who had been in her care. The cause of death given was 'psychogenic polydipsia'. The carer however wrote that she knew this was not the case. At the moment, people with the problem of 'hypovolemic thirst' are being held responsible even for their own deaths. This is a medical travesty and it needs to change. I hope that my book can achieve that.

Please forward details of my book to anyone you think might like to read it. As I mentioned, it will always be available for free download on its website.

Drinking 8 till 20 liters water a day can be deadly. It is very dangerous. It also lower you natrium levels and can causes a heart rhythm disorder. Drinking al lot can also be caused by diabetes isipidus.
 
Messages
8
Thank you for writing this book @crussher . I read through it and ordered some Normalyte. My wife has often complained about being thirsty and drinks alot of water and is often up all night going to the bathroom because of all the water she drinks. I am hopeful that this ORS will start to normalize this thirst she has. She also has extreme POTS that keeps her in bed at all times. I appreciate you sharing your insights.
 
Messages
65
Location
UK
Is there any research or experience out there of whether drinking only ORS is a safe thing to do? I often have a litre per day, but have never gone over that.
 

Atlas

"And the last enemy to be destroyed is death."
Messages
120
Location
New Zealand
There's an article on health rising detailing research which showed 1L of ORS can normalize blood flow to the brain in children with pots.

Personally it does help me somewhat to keep my volume up and reduce thirst/headaches but I don't find i can actually be upright for that long anyway even when it feels ok because exertion threshold is too low.


Is there any research or experience out there of whether drinking only ORS is a safe thing to do? I often have a litre per day, but have never gone over that.

I'd also be interested to know. I prefer to avoid much sugar so my rule of thumb has been to topup with ORS only on days when I wake up super dehydrated. At other times I mostly drink salty water (0.9% saline) in between meals and plain water surrounding meal times or if I'm feeling overly salty.

I figured that there's already potassium and sodium in food and the body needs water to pump those out so I figured not to overdo it with salt water 100% of the time. But I decided this just on an intuition, I don't have any evidence whether this is actually the best thing to do with pots..

however Dr. Vallings did tell me to just eat as much extra salt as I felt filled my inuitive appetite for it
 
Last edited:
Messages
69
Thank you for writing this book @crussher . I read through it and ordered some Normalyte. My wife has often complained about being thirsty and drinks alot of water and is often up all night going to the bathroom because of all the water she drinks. I am hopeful that this ORS will start to normalize this thirst she has. She also has extreme POTS that keeps her in bed at all times. I appreciate you sharing your insights.
Thank you for the kind words. I hope the Normalyte helps your wife. I found it a strange but very pleasant thing to go from guzzling water nonstop to just sipping ORS - I hope something similar happens for your wife.
 
Messages
69
Is there any research or experience out there of whether drinking only ORS is a safe thing to do? I often have a litre per day, but have never gone over that.
That's a great question and something that I've wondered myself. I don't think anyone has ever researched it unfortunately. All I can is I haven't noticed any adverse effects from doing this for the best part of a year at this stage.
 
Messages
69
I'd also be interested to know. I prefer to avoid much sugar so my rule of thumb has been to topup with ORS only on days when I wake up super dehydrated. At other times I mostly drink salty water (0.9% saline) in between meals and plain water surrounding meal times or if I'm feeling overly salty.
That's a great point about avoiding the excess glucose from ORS. I used to drink dioralyte - an ORS available in the UK and which contains glucose. But then I learnt about Normalyte. It actually uses dextrose rather than glucose. It has the same effect of transporting all the salt into the bloodstream (as dextrose basically has the same composition as glucose) but without any effect on blood sugar levels. Btw, the Medow study you reference at the start of your post actually used Normalyte (I learnt that from correspondence with the company).
 

Atlas

"And the last enemy to be destroyed is death."
Messages
120
Location
New Zealand
Btw, the Medow study you reference at the start of your post actually used Normalyte (I learnt that from correspondence with the company).
Good to know, thanks.


It actually uses dextrose rather than glucose. It has the same effect of transporting all the salt into the bloodstream (as dextrose basically has the same composition as glucose) but without any effect on blood sugar levels.

Do you have a source for that information? From what I can tell after reading around a bit dextrose is simply the name for D-glucose, which is the form of glucose found in nature.

I.e. Dextrose is just another name for common glucose, so it does raise blood sugar.

Tbh I'm actually not concerned about my immediate blood sugar so much as the holistic health effects of sugars in general. Of course those things are related. But also I only have energy to brush my teeth once a day so mindful of my teeth.

I know there can be genetic differences with how we process salt on its own, but usually saline alone seems to be enough for me to relieve my thirst. However I never had as extreme thirst as you. Probably the most I was having before I started salt and topping up some mornings with ORS was 4.5L ish/day. Now I drink about 2.5-3L, maybe more when crashed. I still have the problem where I wake up at ~3am super thirsty and need to drink about 800ml. It gets worse if in PEM. Do you experience that?
 
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Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,497
Location
Great Lakes
These sachets rely on the sodium-glucose co-transporter in the gut and effectively boost blood volume, as was shown in a study by Medow (Medow et al., ‘The Benefits of Oral Rehydration Solution on Children with POTS’, 2019.).
I was also in the hospital for hyponatremia recently but mine had to do with my teeth causing me to be unable to keep food and my diy electrolytes down for two days.

I'd been in the ER before though for the same thing two other times.

This time, I figured since the situation was worsening and I'd had this before that I needed to go to the ER fast. By the time I got there it was down to 120. I was thinking they would just give me saline IV for a couple hours and send me home but they said when it's that low they can't go quickly or it can cause problems with the brain somehow.

Still they started me out with the saline anyway but it worked too fast. 120 jumped to 129.
They decide to give me a Desmopressin injection which also dropped it back down. Yikes. I wish they would have foregone the Desmopressin. They had switched me to D5W (dextrose solution that is sodium free). I wish they had stuck with that because the Desmopressin even made it difficult to urinate when I came back home in spite of them also putting me on Lasix for the two days in between. That Desmopressin, at least as an injection, is a scary medicine.

A salt pill was the thing that finally got me to where they could release me. It was a lovely salt pill too and even gave me a tiny bump in energy. Hurray.

So now I have a huge bottle of them...300 tablets (minus a few)...sitting on my countertop. I know they don't have the glucose but they're oh so easy to take and won't bathe my teeth with sugar right now since I still need to get the teeth fixed.

Also I wanted to mention like you indicated how paradoxical the thirst thing is. Our bodies are crying out for sodium but for some reason send a signal for more water instead which just makes the situation worse.

The first time I ended up in the ER was for that. I was so thirsty that I drank 3 (12 ounce) glasses of water all in a row after not eating much salt for a few days.
(I also got the worst case of hiccups I ever had too. Since then, I figured out that hiccups are very often related to too much or too little sodium--some kind of electrolyte shift anyways.)

Sadly, there was a women who died recently for water intoxication and as I was reading the article I was mentally saying to doctors involved, "Why didn't you question the paradoxically cravings? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...-lethal-mistake-death-35-year-old-mother.html

Hopefully with your book, more doctors will start to.
 
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Do you have a source for that information? From what I can tell after reading around a bit dextrose is simply the name for D-glucose, which is the form of glucose found in nature.

I.e. Dextrose is just another name for common glucose, so it does raise blood sugar.

I know there can be genetic differences with how we process salt on its own, but usually saline alone seems to be enough for me to relieve my thirst. However I never had as extreme thirst as you. Probably the most I was having before I started salt and topping up some mornings with ORS was 4.5L ish/day. Now I drink about 2.5-3L, maybe more when crashed. I still have the problem where I wake up at ~3am super thirsty and need to drink about 800ml. It gets worse if in PEM. Do you experience that?
Ah, thank you very much for telling me that. I have obviously made a mistake about dextrose's effects on blood sugar (I thought I had read it somewhere, filed it away but I should have double-checked) and I will add that to a list of things I need to correct in the book. I know that there was some reason why Normalyte decided to use dextrose rather than glucose so it must have been for some other reason. I will ask them and report back.

I used to be in the 4-5 litres camp per day for much of the start of my illness. It was more of a nuisance at that point. My thirst became extreme when I (foolishly) adopted a low-salt diet and was taking 500mg of magenesium a day (maganesium can wash out salt from the body and so may have contributed as well).

My extreme thirst was always worse during PEM and I think that is a common experience from what I've read. If I am in PEM now, the thirst will still increase. I think that the RAA-axis solute loss can increase during PEM and perhaps there are inflammatory processes that increase the thirst at the same time. During PEM and before I had a better idea of what was happening, my thirst was also through the roof at night. I didn't tend to wake up at 3 AM needing to drink - rather I wouldn't really get to sleep in the first place. However, I know of one other person who told me about 'waking up with a raging thirst in the middle of the night'.

Since switching to only ORS, my nighttime issuses with thirst are profoundly better. Occasionally, I need to drink maybe 300-400 ml around 11 AM to midnight to help me sleep but usually I can stop drinking by 9PM and usually have no issues with thirst in the night these days.