Need to Understand Lithium Dumping

[Cnew2this]

@Kadar Boy, that thread you provided with L’engle’s lithium experience was good reading. Makes me even more inclined to be careful with lithium, and the discussion on potassium imbalance was good. I’m really trying to figure out what is going on with my body in that respect.

I was having serious signs of potassium deficiency before starting the @Freddd protocol, but didn’t know it. Kept thinking I needed more Mg. Then from reading Freddd threads, and a lot of help from @drmullin30, I realized that it was potassium. I think it may have been brought on by too much B2. The symptoms (most notably terrible, constant, pain in calf and ankles) got worse after starting Fred’s then immediately better when I started taking high doses of potassium. But I’m still struggling to find a good balance between all of the electrolytes. Thanks for that thread. Even more possibilities for what can cause imbalances.

Found some lithium orotate caps that are only 1,000 mcg per cap (Life Extension) so am going to try those so I can spread a small dose out over the day.

 

[L'engle]

@Kadar Thanks for providing the details of your situation here.

It's reassuring to know that somebody else gets electrolyte and thyroid problems from lithium, though I'm sorry you have this problem too.

FYI, you might have to be careful about high lithium foods too, of which the most common are legumes and nightshade vegetables(potatoes, tomatoes). Some mineral waters as well, depending on where they are sourced (They don't always list trace minerals). If you happen to live in southern South America (Argentina, Bolivia etc), even the water has high lithium content, and thyroid problems are supposedly more common there. 50% of the world's lithium stores are in southern South America.

 

[L'engle]

@Cnew2this An added fun dimension is that taking magnesium can cause an increased need for potassium as well. Getting our electrolytes sorted can be tough! Good luck.

Thanks for posting the link to the Benfotiamine recovery thread, I hadn't seen it.

Yet another fun fact, @Mary took benfotiamine and found it caused a need for phosphate, so that is something to take into account if going the b1 route.

 

[Cnew2this]

@L'engle Thanks for that heads up on benfotiamine and phosphate. And I have started to suspect that I need to back off on magnesium a bit. I guess it has been drilled into my head by doctors for years that it is such a good thing. It is so true that getting electrolytes balanced is really tricky.

I’m glad I got to read your 2014 thread. I don’t have “official” thyroid dysfunction yet, but I have been right on the fringe for years, based on blood work and symptoms. So I am definitely rethinking my approach on Li now. Think I will go to a very low level of supplementing, and will possibly stop.

You make a good point that one should pay attention to the amount of Li they may be getting from food. Thanks for posting.

 

[Kadar]

@Cnew2this Check this:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19374461/

I would just take full dose before b12 and wouldn'r worry.

By the way, other symptoms of overdose in me were eye tiredness and nausea.

About B1 - very likely it will help with palpitations, cramps and other potassium loss symptoms, many successful stories on this forum. I react badly (palpitations) to most sulfur supplements due to copper loss and B1(contains sulfur) induces copper loss in me too. I'm trying to stabilize it now. You may need copper and electrolytes taking B1 and starting with lower doses. Check @Eastman 's posts about B1 through search. Get well!

I'll attach diagram about refeeding syndrome

 

[Kadar]

@L'engle thanks for warning Thankfully I don't live in America

 

[Cnew2this]

Thanks for all of that @Kadar I take my mB12 in 3 doses about 4 hrs apart, per Fred’s original recommendations. So I’m still thinking that I will try to spread the Li out so as to possibly get my serum concentration up during the time I’m taking mB12. Although I am getting a little weary about how supplements are starting to run my life.

I definitely have a tendency toward eye tiredness. I wonder if the Li has been contributing to that. I’ve never noticed nausea after taking it.

Really good info that you provided on B1. I did not know that it contained sulfur. I try to keep my sulfur consumption down to a reasonable level because of my CBS SNP, and my Hair Analysis showed molybdenum at 0 percentile (but I was taking MSM at the time). Of course I have stated that I don't have much confidence in hair analysis, so I guess I shouldn’t pick and choose on which elements to pay attention to.

On copper, a few months ago I decided that I was probably experiencing deficiency and started supplementing. But I also still supplement zinc. For years I was always perplexed that blood work showed my copper to be at the very low end of the normal range and zinc right in the middle or even up in the high end. And yet my doctor would encourage me to take zinc and not copper. Yasko is the same way. I think no matter what the test results show, she recommends supplementing zinc and avoiding any copper in supplements. I guess because that works for most people. It gets very frustrating.

Thanks again for providing all of this. I will check out Eastman’s posts.

This is info I just came across on acu-cell.com, which @drmullin30 turned me on to:

“Sulfur interferes with the storage of copper, an essential trace element, however with copper levels being on the high side with many people, this is generally a positive effect. …

Of course, on those rare occasions when copper is actually deficient, sulfur containing supplements - just like larger amounts of Vitamin C - should not be used, as they could trigger, or worsen existing inflammatory conditions. . . .

With sulfur being a calcium, copper, and potassium antagonist, a high intake of glucosamine sulfate, or MSM may worsen low calcium-related disorders such as insomnia, fatigue, anxieties, or bone loss, aggravate low potassium-related cardiac, or renal / genitourinary conditions, or worsen low copper-related infections.”

 

[Cnew2this]

@drmullin30 – You previously called my attention to acu-cell.com when we were discussing electrolyte balance, and I finally got around to checking it out. What a great website. An excellent source of info on various deficiencies and supplements, and what is really helpful is the coverage of agonists and antagonists. There is a discussion on Li too. Thanks!

 

[Kadar]

@Cnew2this I meant I had worsening in my eye tiredness during Li supplementation, but I have this without Li as well.
Yeah, I've read that about sulfur. So, did you try taking copper?

About creatine and choline you mentioned on my thread - I did have worsening on them (palpitations). I feel worse on everything that antagonizes copper.

 

[Cnew2this]

@Kadar I did understand you were saying that Li might cause your eye tiredness, and I think it is possible that it does that for me too. I had been taking my Li (5 mg) before bed since I suspected it was causing that. Now that I am taking it during the day (with B12) I’m even more convinced it is (or contributing anyway). I’ve decided to reduce my dose to 3 mg/day.

Interesting that you notice an effect on copper levels from creatine and choline.

In the last year I have gone back and forth on whether to supplement copper or not, and how much. For the last few months I have mostly supplemented copper at about 2 mg/day, and my memory is fuzzy on how much zinc I was taking during that time. In the last month I had increased my zinc to about 45 mg and kept copper at 2 mg. A couple days ago I decided my plan was to reduce zinc to 10 mg and keep the copper at 2 mg, and reduce other copper antagonists. Also to increase potassium synergists and decrease antagonists.

But in doing some more research, it sure is hard to find any expert who supports copper supplementation – I guess because excess is so common. So, I’m left wondering what to do regarding copper. Potassium is more clear for me since there is a definite correlation with my leg pain.

These are some partial quotes from acu-cell.com. The one about excess copper becoming bio-unavailable at high levels is interesting. Also, that zinc doesn’t affect copper all that much. It all gets so confusing, and frustrating . . .

“Copper shares many attributes with calcium, whereby both can become bio-unavailable at high levels and result in symptoms of deficiency! Some practitioners, being unaware of the underlying copper excess, and lacking the resources to test intracellular levels of copper, get temporary results by having a patient supplement more copper. Despite the initial improvement, this can have disastrous long-term effects on a patient's physical and mental health.

The correct approach consists of making copper (or calcium) more bioavailable by supplementing the proper co-factors, with the best choice being those whose levels are lowest ratio-wise to copper - and as mentioned above - may include Vitamin C, chromium, sulfur (MSM), molybdenum, nickel, or (rarely) zinc.”

“There are other copper antagonists such as zinc, however while zinc is generally documented as such in the nutritional literature, it is not only the weakest of all copper antagonists, but its action on copper takes place only on an intestinal level …”

“Copper works synergistically with potassium and calcium, so when patients do exhibit low copper levels, then calcium and potassium are frequently on the low side as well. Supplementing 3 mg of copper for one to two weeks, or less, is all that is needed for an adult to normalize any copper deficiency, but then it should be discontinued or reduced, otherwise copper may go too high.”

Copper Synergists: Calcium, potassium, iron, Vitamin E.

Copper Antagonists / Inhibitors: Sulfur, molybdenum, zinc, nickel, chromium, tin, Vitamin B6, Vitamin C, hesperidin, insoluble fiber.

 

[drmullin30]

In the last year I have gone back and forth on whether to supplement copper or not,

@Cnew2this, I had a conversation with Kadar about copper a while back and to summarize what's below, somtimes I have severe copper toxicity symptoms and sometimes I have severe deficiency symptoms and it can be very difficult to figure out. Fredd needed huge doses at times so it may be absolutely necessary at times (as Kadar has found) but care is needed and testing really isn't helpful. You also might want to consider Boron, this is another mineral that can affect electrolyte balance through it's effects on the parathyroid gland and affects the bioavailability of calcium and copper. I should add, that all of what's below may indicate that I'm doing something wrong but I haven't been able to figure it out. Needless to say, I'm not comfortable with all the copper I sometimes need to take.

Here's some of what I said to @Kadar at the time:

I have had a complex relationship with copper because before I started methylation and thyroid (iodine) protocols I was very copper toxic and was taking huge doses of zinc and molybdenum to bring it down. Once I got methylation and my thyroid working better for a few months I started to have hyperthyroid type symptoms such as body temperature regulation was all out of whack, heart palpitations and tachycardia, muscle spasms and weakness and rapid weight loss. These can also be symptoms of potassium, calcium or magnesium deficiency. Calcium and potassium are copper synergists so it's a good idea to take them together.

Sometimes I need up to 20 mg a day of copper and it was helping alleviate all of the above symptoms but It's really easy to over do it and I think I might have on several occasions.

So as we've been discussing, I've gone low oxalate and one common type of oxalate crystal is copper oxalate crystals so as I'm dumping oxalate, sometimes I'm also copper dumping and I might need to go back up to 160 mg a day of zinc and 6 mg a day of molybdenum when that happens. The symptoms of toxic copper dumping are very different from the effects of copper supplementation for me.

So my one concern is that when I was taking all that copper it was being converted to copper oxalate and being stored instead of used. I'm not sure on that but if my adrenals were heavily impacted by oxalates that could be part of the problem. My primary copper toxicity symptom is anxiety and vague paranoia.

My other hypothesis is that the methylation protocol has my body switching back and forth between tissue regeneration and healing which causes copper deficiency and bad/damaged tissue breakdown and detox which causes copper toxicity. I'm hoping that once my body resets to a lower oxalate point the copper dumping will stop and maybe the healing will start up again and I'll need to supplement copper again, (This has in fact happened again since I wrote this and I'm taking 12 - 20 mg a day currently). I may also need to consider lowering my iodine dose again. I've been at 800 mcg per day for a while.

Copper is very tricky! When you need it, and it's deficient, it hits like a freight train. Tonight, after weeks of oxalate dumping and needing mega dose zinc and molybdenum just to function because of the copper-oxalate dumping, tonight I have copper deficiency symptoms. I get palpitations, tremors, anxiety, muscle weakness. I took 4 mg of copper and the symptoms are subsiding. Since I've been through this before, my expectation is that I'll need a fair bit more before I can sleep tonight. I also know that I've overdone it with b 12 lately so that's contributing to the revving effect.

The problem with copper deficiency symptoms for me is that they're almost identical to zinc deficiency or copper toxicity symptoms. It's easy to make a mistake in one direction or the other. I'm relatively healthy so a slight toxicity or deficiency for a few days is not that risky

 

[Kadar]

@drmullin30 I've recently searched about why I can't hold copper as it drops and drops without any b vitamin supplementation (I only take ALA, copper and potassium as necessity). Don't know if you saw this info, but ceruloplasmin, protein which carries copper may be low as a reason we need big amounts of copper. There's protocol to rise ceruloplasmin which states animal vitamin A is the main culprit for ceruloplasmin. My illness started from eye tiredness and I have bad night vision, was vegan for 4 years (most europeans can't convert beta carotene to vitamin A), so I'm very suspicious. They also state Boron may be needed. This theory suit theory that we can have both bioalable and non bioalable copper, free copper, not attached to ceruloplasmin creating oxidative stress. That makes me wonder if this is a reason ALA helps me with palpitations too (because it's used to chelate heavy metals, so is copper). Vitamin A used to treat vitamin D sensitivity, and I'm really sensitive to sun. People post their experiences with it and mention that you need to find a dose where you don't crash, because taking vitamin A will use copper too. I stupidly took 10.000 IU x 3 days and having super high need in copper and afraid I ll have it very long time since it's fat soluble vitamin. But im interested in this idea anyway, just in very low doses.

Plus: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/copper-dysregulation.53851/

 

[Kadar]

@Cnew2this I understand, it's really frustrating.. Doctors really always talk about zinc, but rarely about copper. By the way, as Drmullin30 told me, going low oxalate diet really made my potassium need less. I think it's because after starting methylation I went B1 deficient, and vitamin B1 required to deal with oxalates.

 

[Cnew2this]

@drmullin30 Thanks for all of that. I envy your ability to read your symptoms and know what you need to correct. I’m sure you got there after many years of research and experimenting. Unfortunately, I don’t have that ability (yet). It sounds like you are seeing a pretty quick reaction to taking copper. Like several hours? 24 hours?

I am thinking that I will try a supplement reset. Go back to very low levels of the basic vits and mins (maybe 1 mg copper), cut back just slightly on the Fred Quartets, and then start experimenting to try to get my Mg/Ca/K balanced. Then maybe start experimenting with higher copper. Does this sound like a logical approach?

I’m going to start reading about oxalates (I know I keep saying that, but I’m really ready to do it now). Thanks for all of the good info and hypotheses.

 

[Cnew2this]

Thanks @Kadar More reason for me to start looking into oxalates. I know I consume a lot of them. I bought some B1 benfotiamine. Decided it is worth giving it a try.

 

[drmullin30]

Don't know if you saw this info, but ceruloplasmin, protein which carries copper may be low as a reason we need big amounts of copper. There's protocol to rise ceruloplasmin which states animal vitamin A is the main culprit for ceruloplasmin

Hi Kadar, I'm aware of the role of ceruloplasmin in copper metabolism. I have a genetic SNP which means my body doesn't convert beta carotene into vitamin a (retinol) so I make sure I supplement a minimum of 10000 iu per day of retinol (sometimes in retinyl palmitate form). Retinol is vital for ceruloplasmin synthesis as is copper as you stated. Ceruloplasmin along with metallothionine are the main metal transport proteins and you need sufficient amounts of both in order to effectively eliminate heavy metals and for proper copper, zinc, iron, cobalt etc. metabolism. From memory, copper supplementation will increase ceruloplasmin synthesis and zinc supplementation will increase metallothionine synthesis.

In my non-expert opinion from what I've read supplementing vitamin A doesn't drive copper lower or cause deficiency, it simply helps complex copper into ceruloplasmin so it can be used which is a good thing. Bioavailable copper is bound up with ceruloplasmin, free copper is essentially toxic. This website was a big help years ago when I was dealing with copper toxicity: https://coppertoxic.com/

 

[Kadar]

@drmullin30 omg thank you! New homework

 

[Cnew2this]

@drmullin30 and @Kadar – thanks to both of you for providing more info and reading material on copper. I have been reading on the coppertoxic.com website, and I do feel that copper toxicity is a real possibility for me. I certainly have the history to support that. I had an IUD for 8 years and wore and estrogen patch for 15 years. Looking back now, my cognitive problems started about 6 months after I had the IUD installed. I remember asking my doctor if it could be the problem and she completely dismissed the idea. It was 13 years ago that I had the IUD removed, and 4 years ago that I stopped using an estrogen patch, but from what I am reading on coppertoxic, all that copper could still be stored in my tissues and creating havoc.

I donated $15 and got Fisher’s e-book too, which is good. I see that he relies heavily on hair analysis, but explains that it isn’t so simple as whether Copper is high or low. He gives a few other indicators, like Ca/K greater than 10 (mine was 27), low molybdenum (mine was <0.01 which was 0 percentile), and low Na/K. He doesn’t define “low” regarding Na/K; mine was 7. But, of course he holds back on a full explanation of how to interpret an HTMA, since that is part of his fee for service deal.

@drmullin30 – have you had HTMA testing done through Fischer (Integrative Health Coaching)? He talks about the superiority of the lab he uses in how they process the hair, etc. And then, it comes with his interpretation of the results. I’m just wondering if that is worth pursuing.

On, what should be a brighter note, I feel like I am making progress with electrolyte balance. I’m thinking that my core problem was a low Ca:Mg ratio, from years of consuming lots of Mg (food & supps) and hardly any Ca. And then in the last few months I made many supplement changes that were antagonistic to Ca and potassium. So, I have started supplementing Ca (and continued potassium) and reduced, or eliminated supps I was taking that are antagonistic to Ca or potassium. That terrible leg pain I had been experiencing for months is nearly gone now, which should cause me to be filled with happiness. And yet, the last few days have been particularly bad for depression and irritability. So I do wonder if there is a link to copper toxicity. I see that part of Fischer’s protocol for copper detox is limiting Ca.

Also, I finally started doing some reading on oxalates, and I didn’t get far before becoming so depressed that I had to take a break. But, once I get over my pouting about having to give up the few remaining foods in my diet that I enjoy, I am going to start reducing my oxalate intake. I see a long, painful road ahead there too . . .

 

[Hoosierfans]

@drmullin30 and @Kadar – thanks to both of you for providing more info and reading material on copper. I have been reading on the coppertoxic.com website, and I do feel that copper toxicity is a real possibility for me. I certainly have the history to support that. I had an IUD for 8 years and wore and estrogen patch for 15 years. Looking back now, my cognitive problems started about 6 months after I had the IUD installed. I remember asking my doctor if it could be the problem and she completely dismissed the idea. It was 13 years ago that I had the IUD removed, and 4 years ago that I stopped using an estrogen patch, but from what I am reading on coppertoxic, all that copper could still be stored in my tissues and creating havoc.

I donated $15 and got Fisher’s e-book too, which is good. I see that he relies heavily on hair analysis, but explains that it isn’t so simple as whether Copper is high or low. He gives a few other indicators, like Ca/K greater than 10 (mine was 27), low molybdenum (mine was <0.01 which was 0 percentile), and low Na/K. He doesn’t define “low” regarding Na/K; mine was 7. But, of course he holds back on a full explanation of how to interpret an HTMA, since that is part of his fee for service deal.

@drmullin30 – have you had HTMA testing done through Fischer (Integrative Health Coaching)? He talks about the superiority of the lab he uses in how they process the hair, etc. And then, it comes with his interpretation of the results. I’m just wondering if that is worth pursuing.

On, what should be a brighter note, I feel like I am making progress with electrolyte balance. I’m thinking that my core problem was a low Ca:Mg ratio, from years of consuming lots of Mg (food & supps) and hardly any Ca. And then in the last few months I made many supplement changes that were antagonistic to Ca and potassium. So, I have started supplementing Ca (and continued potassium) and reduced, or eliminated supps I was taking that are antagonistic to Ca or potassium. That terrible leg pain I had been experiencing for months is nearly gone now, which should cause me to be filled with happiness. And yet, the last few days have been particularly bad for depression and irritability. So I do wonder if there is a link to copper toxicity. I see that part of Fischer’s protocol for copper detox is limiting Ca.

Also, I finally started doing some reading on oxalates, and I didn’t get far before becoming so depressed that I had to take a break. But, once I get over my pouting about having to give up the few remaining foods in my diet that I enjoy, I am going to start reducing my oxalate intake. I see a long, painful road ahead there too . . .

I just got my HTMA back which was interpreted as me having a copper toxicity, but my blood results would suggest otherwise...I have low serum copper, low ceruloplasmin and low 24 hour urine copper. Any thoughts on that? Have you started a protocol to detox copper yet?

 

[Hoosierfans]

Hi Kadar, I'm aware of the role of ceruloplasmin in copper metabolism. I have a genetic SNP which means my body doesn't convert beta carotene into vitamin a (retinol) so I make sure I supplement a minimum of 10000 iu per day of retinol (sometimes in retinyl palmitate form). Retinol is vital for ceruloplasmin synthesis as is copper as you stated. Ceruloplasmin along with metallothionine are the main metal transport proteins and you need sufficient amounts of both in order to effectively eliminate heavy metals and for proper copper, zinc, iron, cobalt etc. metabolism. From memory, copper supplementation will increase ceruloplasmin synthesis and zinc supplementation will increase metallothionine synthesis.

In my non-expert opinion from what I've read supplementing vitamin A doesn't drive copper lower or cause deficiency, it simply helps complex copper into ceruloplasmin so it can be used which is a good thing. Bioavailable copper is bound up with ceruloplasmin, free copper is essentially toxic. This website was a big help years ago when I was dealing with copper toxicity: https://coppertoxic.com/

Curious how you ended up dealing with your copper toxicity....