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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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My recovery story

Messages
7
Wow, that's a lot of potentially helpful information!

Could you edit your post to break it up into small, readable paragraphs? Some people have real trouble trying to read such large blocks of text.

Thanks for sharing.
Not sure how to do that. I did use paragraphs but it did not post that way.This seems to happen on a lot of sites.
 
Messages
3
Thanks Hip, I cannot wait to have it done now. I will definately update after the procedure.
Sam, how was surgery? Hope it went well.

Is anyone (ideally in UK, extra ideally a patient at Munro-Hall) able to share anything to do with prices for these procedures? I can't find anything online.

I have a few amalgam fillinga and approx 2 years ago had to have a deep one replaced. I don't think the dentist cleaned the site properly, I've had a minor abscess in my mouth ever since. It just sits under the gum, no pain but it's clearly there. There's no clear path coming from a tooth so my (new) dentist is reluctant to start pulling incase she takes the wrong one(s) and nothing resolves. We were looking at root canal for one and extraction for the other. It all got put on hold thanks to covid and now feeling less and less positive about it the more of this thread I've read...
 
Messages
25
Sam, how was surgery? Hope it went well.

Is anyone (ideally in UK, extra ideally a patient at Munro-Hall) able to share anything to do with prices for these procedures? I can't find anything online.

I have a few amalgam fillinga and approx 2 years ago had to have a deep one replaced. I don't think the dentist cleaned the site properly, I've had a minor abscess in my mouth ever since. It just sits under the gum, no pain but it's clearly there. There's no clear path coming from a tooth so my (new) dentist is reluctant to start pulling incase she takes the wrong one(s) and nothing resolves. We were looking at root canal for one and extraction for the other. It all got put on hold thanks to covid and now feeling less and less positive about it the more of this thread I've read...
Hi @kitten_crisps

The surgery went well. I cannot say I have had any vast improvement from my symptoms but it's still early days yet and it was something that I had to do.

I had 3 teeth pulled out and 3 cavitation sites, also had a few amalgam fillings replaced. It took 2 consecutive days. Most fillings replaced the first day and all the rest done on the second day.

For what I had done I thought I be in a lot more pain but the worst was the second day after the surgery then it wasn't to bad just a bit sore.

@kitten_crisps,I cannot seem to be able to message you to send you the prices.
 
Messages
25
I think we both must have privacy set up too tightly because I cant seem to msg you either. I changed my settings so it should be possible for you now. Ty
I still cannot message you. I don't think it's my settings as I have no issues with anyone else.
 

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
I pity those who are hung up on the "CFS requires that there be no medical explanation". When a cure for CFS is finally found, and hence a medical explanation, these people might have to refuse said cure because they have a disease with a medical explanation and not CFS. Just pointing out the paradox.

The fact is, not having a medical explanation means that the disease is a catch-all for a set of symptoms. Fatigue with PEM and the host of others. I think the most important are the ones I mentioned for a diagnosis. Chronically of course. If this guy had them, he had CFS in my view. I dare say many of those who disagree do not have the same underlying cause or pathology as each other.
 

Guwop2

Senior Member
Messages
252
Hi @SamB , im considering going to Munro Hall to have a root canal tooth removed, would you recommend their services?
 

Forummember9922

Senior Member
Messages
173
Prusty released a new video detailing herpesviruses presence in bone marrow as a major factor in cfs disease onset. Could dental surgery be of relevance to that theory?
 
Messages
26
xrayspex,
I believe the doctors must adhere to standard of care requirement if not they get dragged through the mud. Great doctor have lost their license that way they usually ones that become pioneers!. I have wondered about this. I'm a fan of Joel Wallach author of : Dead Doctors Don't Lie, . Anyhow he always suggests that a high resolution ultrasound a cheap test that is highly accurate, no radiation. I have not been able to get one doctor to write an order for this cheap test that is supposed to help diagnose me with accuracy!. Like why the resistance ?unless they cannot because their chained to the man'a standard of care.

I had three MRI's and no one mentioned metal fillings being an issue. The doctor we talked to basically said , if you have metal fillings and if you've had dental work like root canal, they can't see anything. Anyhow the doctor said, the best test is a bone scan. I think if your lucky you happened to see the right doctor, at the right time and place and everything lines up astrologically .:) A miracle occurs, you get the right answer.

Metals that aren’t attracted to magnets are non-ferromagnetic. Non-ferromagnetic metals interact with the magnetic field. They can cause local distortions which can mess up MRI. Here is the website that explains a little more and perhaps explain if the clips that you referring to were magnetized once you were in the MRI machine.
http://mrimetaldetector.com/blog/2009/04/why-its-important-to-find-metal-before-mri/

What if your allergic to the metals that the clips are made out of? The test for that is the Clifford test . All metals emit charge, that effects our bodies. That is why some many people do not want metal filling or crowns, because it emits a charge that effects the brain, heart the entire body . I assume we are all allergic to metals in our bodies it is just that some peoples bodies react more, than others

I guess my question is can allergies to metal cause autoimmune or CFS symptom's?
I believe something is triggering the CFS but what, EMF, mold, dust, dander food, air streams
radon, carbon monoxide leak, dryer sheets, fumes. memory foam , bleached tea bags, metal fillings, dental cavitations. parasite. sugar, or the deadly gluten and dairy cross reaction. I mean the list can just go and on it could be anything.
Please you explain what you mean when you write : deadly gluten and dairy cross reaction ? It is interesting.
Thank you very much.
I wish you energy and hope
 

Guwop2

Senior Member
Messages
252
Just a message for @Wayne (though anyone feel free to chime in if you have any advice), Ive noticed that you have commented on numerous posts regarding teeth questions, including one of mine, and it seems you may be quite knowledgeable about the subject.
With that in mind I have a question you may be able to advise me on. I have a root canal tooth that i plan on having extracted. My problem is that I can have the tooth extracted by an NHS oral surgeon here in the UK for free, or I can pay to have it done by an oral surgeon who is 'holistic' and sensitive to health issues etc. As someone with ME/CFS I'm inclined to pay more, but perhaps the actual surgery itself would be fairly similar between these two people and it would be aftercare or 'adjunct therapies', such as Ozone Therapy/Lazer and cavitat scans would be worth paying for.

From what ive gathered the main technical difference between a surgeon with mind for holistic concerns and one without is that the 'holistic surgeon' would be removing the periodontal ligament completely and clean the socket. However, after asking this question on Reddit ive had the following response from practicising dentists. Im skeptical of mainstream dentistry, but perhaps there is something to what they say?

(these are the 2 surgeons i can choose from, the women is the holistic dentist): https://rdpholistic.co.uk/about/meet-the-team/farah-hussain/ vs https://lancasterhousedental.co.uk/...john-duker-dentist-south-norwood-croydon.html - incuded Dukers education as an image attached - both Surgeons have solid credentials, but one specialises in Holistic)
Screenshot 2024-02-25 at 10.28.46.png
Screenshot 2024-02-25 at 10.35.16.png
 

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Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,354
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Hi @Guwop2 -- Re: "any ligament is resorbed by the body, nothing special needs to be done about it".

I sort of did a double take when I read the above. My first question was, "what if the ligament is infected?" And how does this dentist know that the ligament is resorbed?" Or that nothing special needs to be done about it? Have there been any scientific studies done to determine that?

My best guess is that this same dentist would almost certainly say that most root canaled teeth are all fine, and should not be of concern either. That would belie many of the testimonials I've read over the years that would dispute the relative (un)safety of root canals, even those that don't have any overt symptoms of being problematic.

Guwop2, I'm assuming you're having your root-canaled tooth removed because you think it's a problem, most likely infected. "My understanding" is that if a root-canaled tooth is infected, then that infection has likely spread to the periodontal ligament, and quite possibly into the jawbone.

That's why I've heard it's important to try to completely remove the ligament, and remove a thin layer of bone in the vicinity, because the bone might be infected as well. It's also always made sense to me to use ozone to facilitate the sterilization of the entire area.

My assumption is that most holistic dentists use ozone, because they believe it's very helpful for their patients' health, either as a treatment or a preventative therapy. My understanding (also) is that most traditional dentists do not use ozone therapy. If they don't, then it would seem to me that they're not availing themselves of effective therapies, and "not at the top of their game".

Personally, I would rather use ozone to get any kind of extra layer of protection, than not use it. If I had the choice, I would likely choose to pay for the services of a holistic dentist who likely has similar views as my own. That said, I wouldn't necessarily spend a lot of money on things that may be unnecessary, such as cavitat scans. My understanding is that cavitat scans aren't necessarily accurate, and may cost more than what they're worth.

A final note: Even if somebody calls themselves a "holistic dentist", be aware that some dentists will do that just so they can charge more for their services. In my mind, it's always "buyer beware". Dental issues of all kinds and finding proper care can be tricky to navigate. My own philosophy is to gather as much information as I can, and then let it settle in for a while. Then depend heavily on my intuition for my final decision.

All the best, and I hope everything works out well for you!
 
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Guwop2

Senior Member
Messages
252
Hi @Guwop2 -- Re: "any ligament is resorbed by the body, nothing special needs to be done about it".

I sort of did a double take when I read the above. My first question was, "what if the ligament is infected?" And how does this dentist know that the ligament is resorbed?" Or that nothing special needs to be done about it? Have there been any scientific studies done to determine that?

My best guess is that this same dentist would almost certainly say that most root canaled teeth are all fine, and should not be of concern either. That would belie many of the testimonials I've read over the years that would dispute the relative (un)safety of root canals, even those that don't have any overt symptoms of being problematic.

Guwop2, I'm assuming you're having your root-canaled tooth removed because you think it's a problem, most likely infected. "My understanding" is that if a root-canaled tooth is infected, then that infection has likely spread to the periodontal ligament, and quite possibly into the jawbone.

That's why I've heard it's important to try to completely remove the ligament, and remove a thin layer of bone in the vicinity, because the bone might be infected as well. It's also always made sense to me to use ozone to facilitate the sterilization of the entire area.

My assumption is that most holistic dentists use ozone, because they believe it's very helpful for their patients' health, either as a treatment or a preventative therapy. My understanding (also) is that most traditional dentists do not use ozone therapy. If they don't, then it would seem to me that they're not availing themselves of effective therapies, and "not at the top of their game".

Personally, I would rather use ozone to get any kind of extra layer of protection, than not use it. If I had the choice, I would likely choose to pay for the services of a holistic dentist who likely has similar views as my own. That said, I wouldn't necessarily spend a lot of money on things that may be unnecessary, such as cavitat scans. My understanding is that cavitat scans aren't necessarily accurate, and may cost more than what they're worth.

A final note: Even if somebody calls themselves a "holistic dentist", be aware that some dentists will do that just so they can charge more for their services. In my mind, it's always "buyer beware". Dental issues of all kinds and finding proper care can be tricky to navigate. My own philosophy is to gather as much information as I can, and then let it settle in for a while. Then depend heavily on my intuition for my final decision.

All the best, and I hope everything works out well for you!
Firstly, enormous thanks for your input here. Im currently gathering info regarding all this an like you say, letting it settle before I make a decision.

One question that remains from your response (and one I've put to the holistic practice I've been in touch with), is surely a Cavitat scan is a priority over the Ozone treatment at first? If the rot of the root canal tooth has spread to the jawbone then Ozone therapy would not be a treatment for that - Ozone would come right at the end after you've determined that the jawbone either needs scraping of the rotten bone, or that it doesn't need scraping, and Ozone will then be used to sort of sterilize the area. I couldn't tell from Ian's original post on this thread if the jawbone rot/cavitation occured after he had the tooth extracted or not. He seems to have had a period of relief of his ME/CFS symptoms immediately after the tooth's extraction followed by a relapse due to the jawbone cavitation, which may have occured because the area was not sterilized (using ozone therapy for example). Ultimately I wonder whether in his case Ozone therapy would have meant not having to have the further scraping operation on his jawbone performed.

My holistic dentist has suggested a CBCT scan, but not Cavitat scan to start with. This seems more to do with ensuring the area of extraction is clear of any obstacles - after examining my mouth she didn't mention anything to do with jawbone cavitation - i don't see how she could rule out a cavitation without the help of a scan of some sort. She said a minimum of 3 sessions of Ozone and Lazer would be required and would cost around £220 per session. I've no idea if this is normal pricing since she's seems to be the only one offering this service.
 
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Blazer95

..and we built castles in the Sky.
Messages
269
Location
Germany
I had been at a doctor claiming to be an expert in these osteo necrosis lesions.

He made a 3D ct image, and then proceeded to point at a specific point in the image and said: See its here!

i didnt see anything at all, went to another dentist and he said there is absolutely nothing and i stopped looking into this stuff.

how to tell if its a scam or legit? i mean since you recovered from it you obviously found a legit doctor...
 

Guwop2

Senior Member
Messages
252
I had been at a doctor claiming to be an expert in these osteo necrosis lesions.

He made a 3D ct image, and then proceeded to point at a specific point in the image and said: See its here!

i didnt see anything at all, went to another dentist and he said there is absolutely nothing and i stopped looking into this stuff.

how to tell if its a scam or legit? i mean since you recovered from it you obviously found a legit doctor...

Funny you say that, ive been told that jawbone Cavitation cant be see on normal X-Rays and that I should get a CBCT scan, and an oral surgeon ive been in touch with (who works for a holistic clinic) has said that either normal X-Rays or CBCT scan will show Cavitation WTF?! I dont have a bottomless money-pit to throw at every scan available and opinions seem to diverge so much.

btw @Wayne , ive been offered topical chlorhexidine and/or tranexamic acid to clean out the socket over using Ozone Therpay/Laser (because of health concerns with these treatments)..dont suppose you know whether topical chlorhexidine and/or tranexamic acid are normally used in Holistic Dentistry? - on a side note ive also read Ozone is maybve even a bit risky for compromised patients. IM extremely sensitve to chemicals/invasive treatments (an earpiercing and the accidental ingentsion of a small amount of hand-sanitizer and taking high-strength b1 vitamin both set my health back 1 year..)
 
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Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,354
Location
Ashland, Oregon
over using Ozone Therpay/Laser (because of health concerns with these treatments)
I'd be curious what those "health concerns" might be. I've always read that these kinds of treatments are very safe and efficacious. Perhaps there's concerns if it's not administered properly? Also, I would recommend you consider supplementing with Methylene Blue while you're working on this issue. MB is antiviral, antibacterial, antifungal, and an all round good antiseptic. If you're interested, I started a thread on it.
 

Guwop2

Senior Member
Messages
252
I'd be curious what those "health concerns" might be.
I just read from Ian's post here that Ozone can stimulate the immune system, whcih for me would be disastrous as my immune system seems to be too easily excitabe and a big source of PEM for me.
 

Guwop2

Senior Member
Messages
252
Anyone here have any opinions on Cavitat Scan vs CT scan for diagnosing infection/Cavitation of the jaw?

Ive been told by a much loved holistic dentist (according to many here) that a CT can indicate cavitation, as can a Cavitat scan. The different is that Cavitat scan is best used when the tooth has been removed and CT scan when the tooth is still there.

Ian's story says that only a Cavitat scan was able to find his Jawbone Cavitation - CT scan didnt show anything. Ian's story is so convincing that im starting to follow his advice from this thread over professional dental advice...which seems kind of wrong, but given the wildly differing views from the dental profession I feel ive been put in a position to adjudicate for myself.
 

Ian

Senior Member
Messages
285
MRI can also find jawbone cavitations, but it needs to be done with STIR imaging, you'll want the axial view. Basically it suppresses the fat in the image. For reasons I don't understand cavitations seem to accumulate fatty deposits. Another name for the disease is fatty degenerative osteocrenosis of the jaw (fdoj).

Mri with STIR imaging is the same setting they use to find osteonecrosis in hips and knees. You can get a scan privately in the uk at least for as cheap as £350. The cavitation will show as a dark hole in the bone. In hips and knees it usually results in the collapse of the joint. In your jaw those infections usually stay there forever. Maybe with the exception you lose all your teeth and have massive bone loss in your jaw.
 
Messages
2
Hello Everyone (Especially to Ian), I have been suffering the last couple years with what I thought was just Cervical Spine Herniations. (I'm in the USA) After seeing a Retired Ph.D Doc in a nearby State who was visiting a few months ago...He informed me that I probably had a Jaw Infection after he looked into my Ear with an Otoscope and discovered a buildup of what he called "Keratosis Obturans"....he said by the look of it....he thought it was Strep that had been there for maybe 8 Years by the size and color of it. He asked me about my Dental History...and I told him I was very familiar with the work of Weston Price...which is why I never wanted a Root Canal. He thought that the Infection in my Jaw was probably the cause of my Cervical At that time, I had 5 Teeth that were Extracted over the years....Both of my Lower 3rd Molars and 2 Lower Wisdom Teeth and the Upper Right Back Molar (Apparently I didn't have any Top Wisdom Teeth) What No One ever told me was that.....If these Teeth Were not Extracted properly I could end up with Jaw Cavitations ! (Removing the Peridontal Ligament and thoroughly cleaning the Site) He also rubbed some Essential oils vigorously in the my Thighs and Calves and placed a High Powered Camera next to my Calf Muscle...I looked up the Monitor and could see these little Parasites swimming around in my Interstitial Space which was discovered only in the last 9 years. Described here. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/meet-your-interstitium-a-newfound-organ/

I was blown away by this News that No Medical Doctor ever told about ! A friend told me about a Biological Dentist about 30 Minutes away from me where she had her Mercury Fillings swapped out. My Lower Second Molar was killing me after my Conventional Dentist had placed a Crown on the Tooth after a small piece of the Side of the Tooth Broke Off. When he placed the Permanent Crown I told him I had quite a bit of pain in that Crowned Tooth and he basically told me.....If it gives you more trouble come back in a couple weeks. He Retired a few days after I last seen him ! UnReal ! The Biological dentist had a Cone Beam CT Scan which supposedly would show Cavitations. After the CT Scan....he could see trouble under my Crowned Lower Third Molar (#18)....it had a 9 MM Deep Pocket. He sent me to an Oral Surgeon who he had convinced to start doing Cavitation Surgeries. He Extracted that Number 18 Molar and noticed that the Wisdom Tooth Site right behind it (#17) there was a Necrosed Area in my Mandible Jawbone. So he cleaned that out too (Debrided the Necrosed Bone) The Kicker was...Neither the Oral Surgeon or the Biological Dentist could Identify the Wisdom Tooth Area Cavitation with the Cone Beam CT Scan ! I have been having Intermittent Stabbing Pains in both Sides of my Lower Jawbone even after having been worked on a couple months ago. I suspect that I have more Cavitations that the Cone Beam CT cannot identify. So I am VERY INTERESTED in the STIR MRI of the Jawbone that Ian mentioned in some of his posts. You mentioned the Axial View is best for the STIR MRI. Do they need to use Contrast or No Contrast? Did they use a Cage around your Face/Head? Any other Settings I need to request? Anyway, I am currently being tested for different Parasites and trying to sort out these 2 issues. I'm glad I discovered this wonderful Forum. Looking forward to some informative replies.
Thanks.....Tom
 
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