My Hypothesis on Th2 to Th1 Immunomodulators in CFS

[Hip]

Brewer thinks that these mycotoxins take up residence in the sinuses. He thinks, in questioning patients, that the exposure could be as long ago as 25 years.

Have you got any links/refs for Brewer's idea that mycotoxins lodge in the sinuses?

The half life of the mycotoxins Brewer found in ME/CFS patients ranges from 5 days to 60 days (see studies below), so it is hard to imagine that these mycotoxins will last for 25 years in the sinuses.


Details of the biological half life of the mycotoxins Brewer found in ME/CFS patients:

Aflatoxins (found in 12% of ME/CFS patients) has a half life of 30 to 60 days. Ref: 1
Ochratoxin A (found in 83% of ME/CFS patients) has a half life of 5 days. Ref: 1
Macrocyclic trichothecenes (found in 44% of ME/CFS patients). One macrocyclic trichothecenes called verrucarin has a half life of 28 days. Ref: 1

 

[Sushi]

This is an interesting thread.

I have heard from a patient of Brewer's (who was found positive for mycotoxins) that he is having good success with treating them in the sinuses. I don't have any links though--all I have heard is anecdotal.

Sushi

 

[lansbergen]

The half life of the mycotoxins Brewer found in ME/CFS patients ranges from 5 days to 60 days (see studies below), so it is hard to imagine that these mycotoxins will last for 25 years in the sinuses.

If they are encapsulated they could. Incapsulating is one of the means the immune system uses.

 

[Hip]

If they are encapsulated they could. Incapsulating is one of the means the immune system uses.

I suppose it depends on whether Dr Brewer is talking about a mold organism infection in the sinuses, or whether Dr Brewer is just talking about mold toxins in the sinuses. Mold toxins (mycotoxins) are the chemicals secreted by living mold organisms, and these mold toxins float in the air of any room that has a mold growing on the walls or window sills, etc, and we then breath in these mold toxins. It is the mold toxins rather than the mold organisms themselves that seem to cause major problems for people, as I understand it.

Does anyone know whether Dr Brewer says he finds mold infections, or just mold toxins, in the sinuses?

(I read just now that the encapsulation response is used by the immune system of invertebrates like snails and insects, but not used by mammals. Though there do appear to be these things called fungal balls (mycetoma) that occasionally can grow in the sinuses).

I have heard from a patient of Brewer's (who was found positive for mycotoxins) that he is having good success with treating them in the sinuses. I don't have any links though--all I have heard is anecdotal.

Sushi

Any idea of how Dr Brewer treats mycotoxins in the sinuses, Sushi? Does he use some type of nasal irrigation, perhaps, that will remove the mycotoxins? Or if we are talking about an actual mold organism infection within the sinuses, does Dr Brewer perhaps use antifungals to treat this infection?

Moreover, do you know has Brewer actually performed any testing that demonstrates high levels of mycotoxins (or a mold infection) in the sinuses?

 

[Sushi]

I suppose it depends on whether Dr Brewer is talking about a mold organism infection in the sinuses, or whether Dr Brewer is just talking about mold toxins in the sinuses. Mold toxins (mycotoxins) are the chemicals secreted by living mold organisms, and these mold toxins float in the air of any room that has a mold growing on the walls or window sills, etc, and we then breath in these mold toxins. It is the mold toxins rather than the mold organisms themselves that seem to cause major problems for people, as I understand it.

Does anyone know whether Dr Brewer says he finds mold infections, or just mold toxins, in the sinuses?

(I read just now that the encapsulation response is used by the immune system of invertebrates like snails and insects, but not used by mammals. Though there do appear to be these things called fungal balls (mycetoma) that occasionally can grow in the sinuses).



Any idea of how Dr Brewer treats mycotoxins in the sinuses, Sushi? Does he use some type of nasal irrigation, perhaps, that will remove the mycotoxins? Or if we are talking about an actual mold organism infection within the sinuses, does Dr Brewer perhaps use antifungals to treat this infection?

Moreover, do you know has Brewer actually performed any testing that demonstrates high levels of mycotoxins (or a mold infection) in the sinuses?

Hi Hip,

My information is second hand so I only know that he is using medication sprayed into the nose and, I believe, another option if the medication isn't tolerated. Sorry, not much help.

I don't know his testing method but I think someone earlier mentioned the lab he is using.

Sushi

 

[consuegra]

Hip,

This is an interesting distinction that you are making. I myself have no idea how to answer it.

I have heard Dr. Brewer say that he believes that mold colonizes in the sinuses and stays there until it is rooted out. He queries his patients for mold exposure and some appear to be from very far back in time. He believes that the medical literature points most strongly to the sinuses for the long time colonization of mold. This is a supposition on his part. Nevertheless he is proceeding with treating those of his patients who want to be treated. He uses a nasal atomizer (Nasa-touch) and Ampho B. More recently he is also using colloidal silver by the same atomizer -as it appears to be less harsh. I believe a few other clinicians are also using nebulized colloidal silver.

Dr. Brewer does the mycotoxin testing on his patients through Real Time lab, run by Dr. Hooper. They do a urine test for three mycotoxins, one of which is Ochratoxin A. Dr. Shoemaker is on record with his opinion that this test is near worthless. He has not explained why he feels this way. Nevertheless, Dr. Brewer is getting some positive results in treating his patients and I believe we will hear more about this in time.

Chris

 

[Hip]

Thanks @Sushi and @consuegra for your replies and info.

Thinking about this, it would make sense if there were an actual ongoing mold organism infection in the sinuses of ME/CFS patients — an infection that was continually pumping out mold toxins into the body. This would explain why high levels of mycotoxins are found in the urine of ME/CFS patients, even when the patient's original mold exposure occurred years or even decades earlier. During the original mold exposure of the patient, some mold organisms may have been breathed in, and then colonized the sinuses, and the constant production of mycotoxins by these organisms in the sinuses would explain why high levels of mycotoxins are seen in the urine of ME/CFS patients, even decades later.

If someone just breathed in only mycotoxins during a mold exposure, but no acual mold organisms, then you would expect to see a temporary rise in the mycotoxins in the urine, for up to a year say, but after that, all the breathed in mycotoxins should have been eliminated from the body, and then the urine would show no more mycotoxins. So the fact that ME/CFS patients show high levels of mycotoxins in their urine even decades after the initial mold exposure pretty much proves that there must be an ongoing mold organism infection in the patient that constantly producing mycotoxins.


I think that using a colloidal silver nasal spray / nebulizer to try to kill any mold organism infections inside the sinuses is something that any ME/CFS patient can try themselves. I am going to try this.

Though the use of the potent anti-fungal drug amphotericin B would require a doctor's prescription and supervision, as this anti-fungal has can have severe and potentially lethal side effects.

 

[Hip]

Dr. Shoemaker is on record with his opinion that this test is near worthless. He has not explained why he feels this way.

That I would certainly like to know more about.

The test used by Dr Brewer in his study is this one, I believe: Realtime Laboratories Mycotoxin Testing

 

[Ema]

Though the use of the potent anti-fungal drug amphotericin B would require a doctor's prescription and supervision, as this anti-fungal has can have severe and potentially lethal side effects (and for this reason, amphotericin B is not made available to the public from the usual overuses pharmacies).

I think that topical use of ampho b is fairly benign. The side effects seem to be from IV use. Doesn't this protocol use a nasal spray?

 

[Hip]

I think that topical use of ampho b is fairly benign. The side effects seem to be from IV use. Doesn't this protocol use a nasal spray?

That's a point. If Dr Brewer just uses amphotericin B topically on the sinus mucous membranes, that would not lead to side effects, as apparently amphotericin B is not significantly absorbed from the skin, mucous membrane, or gastrointestinal tract. 1

 

[consuegra]

Inhaled with an atomizer, Ampho B is pretty difficult for some patients. Colloidal silver is seen as more benign, perhaps as effective over a longer treatment period. There is more than one practitioner using nasal colloidal silver these days. I suppose a question is - what is the best way to nebulize it?

Chris

 

[Hip]

I often experiment with taking supplements intranasally, and to do this I often use one of those nasal spray nebulizer bottles that hayfever remedies are supplied in. I have hayfever, and usually use the Beconase® brand of nasal spray. You can also buy generic brands of this nasal spray in a bottle that are much cheaper, around £2 to £3.

Nasal spray nebulizer bottle:

When the nasal spray bottle is finished, I refill it with water plus my supplement or medication dissolved in that water, and then spray this into the nose. These spray bottles have a pump action: you press down the nozzle with two fingers placed on the plastic wings located on either side of the nozzle (see above picture), and this atomizes the water into a mist that goes into your nose (you hold the nozzle within your nostril as you pump). These spray bottles are very easy to use.

Even if you don't have hayfever, you might just buy one of these hayfever remedy spray bottles, and tip out and throw away the liquid contents, and then you have a cheap nebulizer for £2 to £3.

 

[Ema]

Inhaled with an atomizer, Ampho B is pretty difficult for some patients. Colloidal silver is seen as more benign, perhaps as effective over a longer treatment period. There is more than one practitioner using nasal colloidal silver these days. I suppose a question is - what is the best way to nebulize it?

Chris

Does it have to be nebulized?

It looks like the NasaTouch product that is referenced is only an atomizer.

 

[Hip]

Don't "nebulize" and "atomize" mean the same thing: to convert a liquid into a fine mist?

The hayfever nasal spray bottle mentioned above creates a small cloud of fine mist similar to what you get from say a hairspray aerosol.


EDIT: actually, there is a difference:
"Nebulizers are essentially electric atomizers, as both convert liquid chemicals into a fine mist. However, there are differences between the two. The nebulizer takes time to dispense, while the atomizer is instant. The atomizer works in controlled, metered doses, while the nebulizer does not." Source: here.

 

[bertiedog]

I'm sure 52% respond to oxymatrine / equilibrant according to a video with Dr Chia??

I don't seem to be one of them...yet...have been on oxy for 1 month at full dose and now moving up to 9 tablets (self dosing) as no effect. His son took 9 per day. Need to trial for at least 3 months though.

I think that's an interesting idea and I would love to hear if anyone has tried this? I imagine the problem is that there are so many things which can shift the immune system finding the thing / combination of things would be very difficult. Viruses aren't easy to get rid of as a start.

Have you got any suggestions about what seems to be the most important areas Hip?

Very interesting ideas.


Best wishes,

J

I think I am right in saying that some of the herbs in the Oxymatrine from Dr Chia are vasodilators and this is a disaster for those of us with POTS I had to stop taking it for this reason.

Pam

 

[Hip]

I'm sure 52% respond to oxymatrine / equilibrant according to a video with Dr Chia??

I don't seem to be one of them...yet...have been on oxy for 1 month at full dose and now moving up to 9 tablets (self dosing) as no effect. His son took 9 per day. Need to trial for at least 3 months though.

Yes that is right. Roughly, Dr Chia found that 25% responded well to oxymatrine (significant improvements in symptoms), another 25% had some mild improvements in symptoms, and the remaining 50% did not benefit from oxymatrine.

But in terms of getting significant improvements from oxymatrine, it's only around 25% of people.


Note that powdered oxymatrine (in capsules) appears to be much more potent than oxymatrine in a tablet, due I think to the fact that fine power is much better absorbed in the gut. So for anyone who has not responded to oxymatrine tablets, try powdered oxymatrine (in capsules) instead.

| wonder whether some of the non-responders to oxymatrine may just have a problem with absorbing oxymatrine from their guts.

 

[JBB]

Yes that is right. Roughly, Dr Chia found that 25% responded well to oxymatrine (significant improvements in symptoms), another 25% had some mild improvements in symptoms, and the remaining 50% did not benefit from oxymatrine.

But in terms of getting significant improvements from oxymatrine, it's only around 25% of people.


Note that powdered oxymatrine (in capsules) appears to be much more potent than oxymatrine in a tablet, due I think to the fact that fine power is much better absorbed in the gut. So for anyone who has not responded to oxymatrine tablets, try powdered oxymatrine (in capsules) instead.

| wonder whether some of the non-responders to oxymatrine may just have a problem with absorbing oxymatrine from their guts.

That's an interesting theory. Thanks for the clarification on responders.

Has anyone tried the powdered version and had benefit over Equilibrant? I would be surprised if I am not absorbing the oxymatrine as I do not appear to have problems with my gut, cannot be 100% sure of course.

@bertiedog I didn't know about this. I guess it is not for everyone as is the usual story.


Best wishes,

J

 

[cigana]

Nice idea, I wonder if it can work the other way round, i.e. the arrival of a Th2 stressor in presence of a chronic Th1 stressor.

So what happens when a normal person (not genetically susceptable to CFS) gets an intracellular and extracellular infection simultaneously? How do they end up shaking off both?

On the note of chronic sinus infections with mold - will these lead to obvious nasal symptoms? I have had to carry a tissue with me for as long as I can remember, because I often need to clear my nose (though that could of course be some kind of allergen, that just happens to be around all year wherever I go).
I started a poll on long-term nasal symptoms:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-blow-your-nose-or-have-nasal-symptoms.26903/

I recently started with a colloidal silver nasal spray - I will switch to my nebulizer instead.

 

[Hip]

So what happens when a normal person (not genetically susceptable to CFS) gets an intracellular and extracellular infection simultaneously? How do they end up shaking off both?

I don't think people do shake them off.

I think that if you catch a virus (or intracellular bacterium) that is linked to triggering ME/CFS, and there are also simultaneously other factors in you body that are causing an immune shift to the Th2 mode (mold toxins are a factor that shift you to Th2), then I think you may never be able to shake off that viral infection, and ME/CFS will result.

This is the theme of this thread: that ME/CFS may arise because you caught a ME/CFS-triggering virus (like an enterovirus) when you had other factors present in your body creating a strong shift towards Th2, such that you can never mount the appropriate Th1 immune response necessary to fight of this virus.

And from the treatment perspective, this ideas presented in this thread would suggest that to cure yourself of ME/CFS, you may not only need to take immunomodulators like oxymatrine or inosine that shift you towards Th1, but also remove any factors (like mold toxins) in your body that are keeping you stuck in the Th2 mode.

These Th2 factors may be preventing you from getting well again.

So it might be a good idea to perform the colloidal silver sinus mold infection eradication techniques described above (as an ongoing mold infection will bog you down in Th2), and to take antibiotics which treat any bacterial overgrowth in the gut, etc (these bacteria may also bog you down in Th2), in combination with taking an immunomodulator like oxymatrine that shifts towards Th1.

That way, you are doing everything you can to bring the immune system back to the desired Th1 mode, and correcting the underlying Th2 dominance found in ME/CFS patients, which may then lead to viral clearance.

 

[Sushi]

....So it might be a good idea to perform the colloidal silver sinus mold infection eradication techniques described above (as an ongoing mold infection will bog you down in Th2), and to take antibiotics which treat any bacterial overgrowth in the gut, etc (these bacteria may also bog you down in Th2), in combination with taking an immunomodulator like oxymatrine that shifts towards Th1.

That way, you are doing everything you can to bring the immune system back to the desired Th1 mode, and correcting the underlying Th2 dominance found in ME/CFS patients, which may then lead to viral clearance.

In my experience taking an appropriate gut-specific antibiotic to target bacterial overgrowth makes a huge difference in my overall symptoms. Maybe you have hit on why.

How do you think injecting GcMAF would play into the topic of this thread? It is also enormously helpful to me but I don't know how it affects the Th 1/Th 2 balance.

Sushi