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My Full Recovery By TCM + TCM issues Q&A

Messages
78
Hi Valentijn,


I was simply pointing out that his perceptions do not constitute a reputable source of information. That was not an insult - it's a fact of life, and it's the reason that there are scientific procedures that should be used to sidestep our unconscious human biases. And I most certainly am allowed to rationally critique the methods which he is using to reach his conclusions.

I think you wrongly thought that i have any issues with rational criticism with the previous statement i said, hence your reply above. I am fine with rational criticism. Nothing is perfect in this world, so there needs be more further analysis for better understanding. I have no issues with what you are saying here.

This strikes me as another attempt at a pseudo-scientific explanation. I don't believe there is evidence of such a process causing a chronic illness to potentially start at a later time point. Can you provide an exact mechanism by which this could occur?

It's not pseudo scientific explanation. It's more unsubstantiated that that. It is just my personal belief only. Dots. Hahaha! I personally would doubt that there is any studies of such a sequence happening, even if it does actually occur, though i have not searched for it. Well, i do have my random unsubstantiated belief on possible mechanism, but it's random and not TCM related, so i'll just keep on topic track here.

While ME/CFS may potentially be a subset of fatigue or dampness, it is a very distinct subset with distinct symptoms and distinct pathologies. He has made a big error by labeling his chapter as dealing with a specific Western illness, when he is really addressing something much, much broader, where fewer than 10% of the patients in that broad category actually have ME/CFS.

Perhaps. Or perhaps not. I dont know. One way to know better might be to question Giovanni himself.

Goodnight all :)

Wintersky
 

Jenny

Senior Member
Messages
1,388
Location
Dorset
Hi Msf,


I have no idea how you came up with the idea that i said that one must understand Chinese to understand Chinese Medicine. Dots. As you can see from my quote, i have only expressed that there are difficulties in translation is all, not Mission Impossible LOL! Personally i have no idea if Giovanni Marciaco as an Italian knows Chinese or not, but i have no doubt that he has a way more advanced understanding of Chinese Medicine than me, a Native Chinese speaker.

Hope the above clears up the miscommunication here. Good night all

Wintersky

Giovanni Maciocia spent many years in China studying Chinese medicine, and he is fluent in Chinese.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Wintersky, I thought you were saying that Valentjin had misunderstood the concept because she doesn´t speak Chinese. Perhaps TCM is just in need of a good translator.

Which part of China are you/your family from?
 
Messages
78
Hi Msf,

It's okies. The miscommunication happens here also happens because it was my wrong for not having expressed myself more clearly. Yes, TCM is very much in need of good translators. Even as a native Chinese speaker, i find it hard to pick the right personal choice of English words to express certain concepts here throughout this entire thread. Not to mention that personally i choose to read English TCM texts as a majority and Chinese Texts as a minority because i read Chinese many times slower than i read English texts.

Im not from China. Im from a multi-racial country, Singapore which has a majority Chinese population, but intentionally distances itself politically from China by having a neutral stance. For all i know, you might even speak even better Chinese than me, a native speaker. I've encountered quite afew foreign tourists personally on the streets in this setting. Hahaha!

Wintersky
 
Messages
78
Case history:
A 59-year-old woman had been diagnosed as having had Chronic Fatigue Syndrome for the previous 4 years. She could not say exactly how it started. Her main symptoms when she came for treatment were: feeling “flat”, constipation, “racing feeling” with palpitations, ache and fatigue of muscles after the slightest exertion, exhaustion, “lacking energy and incentive”, passing water three times a night, backache, dizziness, tinnitus, feeling cold, breathlessness with palpitations, cold hands, flu-like feeling like a “burning coldness”, prone to catching colds after a shower or washing hair. Her tongue was Pale, with a slightly peeled centre and a central Stomach crack. Her pulse was generally Weak.

Treatment principle:
The main principle of treatment is therefore to tonify Kidney-Yang and only secondarily to resolve Dampness.

Herbal therapy: The herbal prescription chosen was a variation of You Gui Yin/ Restoring the Right [Kidney] Decoction
:
Rhemannia/Shu Di Huang 12 g
Fructus Cornus/Shan Zhu Yu 4
Rhizoma Dioscoreae/Shan Yao 6g
Fructus Lycii chinensis/Lycium/Gou Qi Zi 6g
Cortex Eucommiae/Du Zhong 6g
Cinnamomi/Rou Gui 1.5g
Aconite/Fu Zi 1g
Herba Cistanches/Rou Cong Rong 6g
Rhizoma Alismatis/Ze Xie 3g
Radix Glycyrrhizae/Zhi Gan Cao 3 g

Explanation
This prescription was altered only with the addition of Herbal/Cistanches/Rou Cong Rong to tonify Kidney-Yang and move the stools and Ze Xie to moderate the effect of the other herbs, all of which are hot in energy.
The combination of acupuncture and herbal therapy produced an immediate improvement which continued gradually and steadily throughout the course of treatment. All her symptoms were relieved after 6 months.

- Giovanni Marciaco, pg 1167

Hi All,

I would like to talk more about this interesting Clinical case by Giovanni where this CFS diagnosed patient had all symptoms relieved after 6 months, though we have no idea if there was any relapse thereafter in the future. I shall provide below my personal interpretation of what Giovanni does here.

The issue here stated by Giovanni is "Kidney-Yang". To elucidate, Kidney-Yang is responsible for the body's warming energies body while Kidney yin is responsible for keeping the body cool and providing moisture. If there is kidney-yang deficiency, the body feels very cold easily along with backaches etc as this "energy" is also responsible for good spinal growth and functions. As one might imagine, in TCM a deficiency in kidney energy is worse than a general "qi-deficiency" in the other clinical cases he discusses. As Giovanni says, the said individual has distinct predominant kidney-yang deficiencies seen from backache, feeling cold, passing urination frequently etc.

The formula "Restoring The Right Kidney Decoction/You Gui Wan" is also a readily-available formula in bottled pill format if one goes into any Asian-Medicine Drugstore. I'll give an personal individual interpretation of what the primary function of each here is used here for, as most herbs have 2 or more functions (up to 3 at most usually)

=============================================================
Rhemannia/Shu Di Huang: Tonify "Jing/stored energy reserves" and Kidney

Fructus Cornus/Shan Zhu Yu: Astringent function here, tonifying liver and kidney as secondary

Rhizoma Dioscoreae/Shan Yao: Tonifying "Qi"/immediate current useable energy

Fructus Lycii chinensis/Lycium/Gou Qi Zi: Similar to Rhemannia but weaker function

Cortex Eucommiae/Du Zhong: Tonify Kidney Yang

Cinnamomi/Rou Gui: Warms up the body and invigorates circulation by inducing heat. No tonifying function.

Aconite/Fu Zi: Best herb in TCM for invigorating Kidney Yang, better than Cinammon. Daily Dosage beyond 15 g is toxic, so small quantities of 1g to 5g are more commonly used. Alot of toxic herbs in TCM are deemed to have much higher efficacy but are rarely used due to common substitution by other non-toxic herbs as many countries ban import of certain toxic herbs. Thermal property here is "Hot", much worse than "Warm". In TCM, this is also a commonly used herb in Autoimmune disorders if one suffers from "cold-type" arthritis.

Herba Cistanches/Rou Cong Rong: Tonify Kidney-Yang

Rhizoma Alismatis/Ze Xie 3g: "Cold" thermal property to balance other herbs. This takes the place of Poria/Fu Ling which is commonly used in combination with Rhemannia to provide a diuretic/drain dampness function.

Radix Glycyrrhizae/Zhi Gan Cao 3 g: Harmonize Overall formula side-effects (warm/cool etc)

=======================================================================

Formula Summary: This formula tonifies "Jing"/stored energy reserves with minor help from astringent properties while invigorating "kidney yang" in a strong manner. At this individual herb dosage, Giovanni's focus is on Kidney- Tonification while providing minor invigoration of Kidney-Yang as can be seen by the very low dosage of Cinammon and Aconite. The lower "warm/hot" herb dosage here is also good because it is more suitable for longer term usage without much side effects of feeling too "warm".

One thing to note here is that in TCM in this particular case, it is possible to use herbs with very strong nature (invigorating kidney-yang herbs here) to resolve symptoms rapidly, but is not usually done as the improved effects are only temporary with side effect of feeling too "warm".. Here, Giovanni does a slower but longer-term focus via tonification instead of providing rapid short-term relief.

Personally, i would say that "Restoring The Right Kidney Formula" is different from "Ginseng And Astragalus Combination" (GAC) in that the former's effects take way longer to be felt while GAC's effects are more immediately discernible and addresses a different-nature + more threatening condition. "Restoring the Right Kidney Formula" focuses on "kidney" energies while GAC focuses on "Qi"/current immediately useable energies. Both formulas are used only under chronic/serious situations of totally different nature.

For the record, the TCM reference to side-effects of too "warm" or "hot" are not long-lasting irreversible side effects, but should be more correctly interpreted as short-term reversible effects. In TCM, even if one has never consumed any Eastern herbs ever this lifetime, one is deemed to be having at any current moment of life, a body-property of either "Cold", "Cool", "Neutral", "Warm" or "Hot". "Cold" and "Hot" are the extremes.

Wish you all a Good Day Ahead

Wintersky
 

buggier

Hating my life
Messages
9
Location
Singapore
Wintersky, where do you live?
I am considering TCM as my first-line therapy against my autoimmunity + CFS.
 
Messages
78
Hi Buggier,

I live in Kallang. It seems that you are a Singaporean too from your profile. it seems like a small world totally, especially for a country with a very small dot on the map :)

I am considering TCM as my first-line therapy against my autoimmunity + CFS.

Anyway, if you want, you can hit me up for a online chat conversation or an actual real-life chat.
Wintersky
 
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buggier

Hating my life
Messages
9
Location
Singapore
Hi Buggier,

I live in Kallang. It seems that you are a Singaporean too from your profile. it seems like a small world totally, especially for a country with a very small dot on the map :)

Anyway, if you want, you can hit me up for a online chat conversation or an actual real-life chat.
Wintersky

I live in AMK, although I'm usually too tired to do anything social even if its to meet a fellow CFS sufferer (or in your case ex-CFS)

Do you have food intolerances?
I follow a lot of what goes online in the CFS/autoimmune/paleo/food intolerances circles, and lectin sensitivity has been increasingly discussed. I believe I have a ton of such food intolerances, and a IgG panel by Imupro showed a massive number of intolerances including soy, wheat, gluten, diary, fish, most vegetables, most fruits.

Some of the TCM docs I have seen say my body is in a constant state of inflammation, and I think its related to food since I have had IBS for 7 years prior to my body crashing. How does food intolerances tie in with TCM?
 
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buggier

Hating my life
Messages
9
Location
Singapore
Hey Buggier,

We covered those in a previous post in our current thread, as belows:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...very-by-tcm-tcm-issues-q-a.40176/#post-645190

Good Night :)

Wintersky

Thanks. Could you tell me who are the best TCM practitioners in Singapore?

From what I've seen, the good ones here got their reputation from getting infertile women pregnant, but I'm a bit sceptical how good they would be at other chronic conditions like CFS if their last 500 patients were all related to infertility.
 
Messages
78
Hi Buggier,

I have not visited any TCM nor Western doctors for many many years as i do not have any significant medical conditions and do self-decoction for general health maintenance or temporary acute sickness which happens infrequently for any normal person. Hence, i do not know who are the "best" plus the fact that "best" is abit subjective. There are quite some others that have got their reputation for treatment in some difficult cases like terminal stage-cancer cases etc, but reputation is a very subjective concept. I'll take this conversation private with you
 
Messages
78
Good Day All,

There are people who had asked me (in private) about the TCM view of Anti-inflammatory related herbs such as Cinammon and Tumeric etc and possible side effects experienced. So i shall do a broad-framework process outlook at how TCM views Autoimmune (Arthritis) and related inflammation and herbal usage. Note: this is meant only as a process outlook at how TCM views Arthritis and inflammation

Four Pathogenic Factors are commonly seen here:

  • Wind Bi: Wind predominates when a patient exhibits pain that begins and ends rapidly, limits the range of comfortable movement, and moves among different parts of the body. Windy weather can make the symptoms worse. Such patients also may have an aversion to wind. Because this type of Bi moves from area to area, it is also known as "Wandering Bi."
  • Cold Bi: Cold predominates when the pain is severe, limits the range of comfortable movement, and has fixed locations. Cold temperatures worsen the condition, and warmth improves it. A patient suffering from Cold Bi may have an aversion to cold. Because this type of Bi usually results in severe pain, it is also known as "Painful Bi."
  • Damp Bi: Damp predominates when the pain is characterized by soreness, limits the range of comfortable movement, and is accompanied by feelings of heaviness and sometimes numbness. While many areas of the body may be affected, the pain tends to remain in those places. Dampness worsens the condition and there may be swelling in the affected areas. These patients usually have an aversion to damp weather. Because this type of Bi is characterized by fixed areas of pain and sensations of heaviness, it is also known as "Fixed Bi."
  • Heat Bi: Heat predominates when a Wind-Cold-Damp syndrome results in a greatly reduced flow of Qi and Blood through a joint, causing constraint. Constraint in TCM theory can cause Heat. Heat Bi is characterized by inflamed, red, swollen joints.

http://www.healthcommunities.com/ar...ditional-chinese-medicine-and-arthritis.shtml

Hence, with the exception of Heat pathogenic factor, we are looking at herbs which specifically have "pungent" and "warm" property and possibly able to clear dampness and improve blood circulation etc. Properties which most anti-inflammatory herbs have (Cinammon, Tumeric etc etc)

1. "Pungency" moves stuff/disperses (blood, "Qi") around so that they dont become stagnant. This pungency nature's price is it disperses usable energy out of the body too (energy wastage)

2. Have highly "warm/hot" nature in addition to pungent property. The even worse thing than warm/hot nature is that they induce lots of heat as a 2nd mechanism to prevent stagnancy. Heat moves things around like in Western Science 101, particles vibrate faster with more heat.

3. Doesnt contain significant "Qi"/energy levels within itself like Ginseng, Codonopsis etc, meaning it doesnt tonify blood nutrients, "Qi" nor "Jing/stored energy reserves". Only "Qi/energy herbs gives immediate additional usable energy to your body. A possible analogy of "Qi"/energy herbs here is like sugar/glucose which gives the body more immediate energy replenishment.

4. This category of herbs just tells/directs your body to do a faster/higher energy release (invigoration) from your "jing/stored energy reserves".

TCM-noted Side Effects/Caution Of Most Anti-Inflammatory Herbs:
This category herbs have a "warm/hot" property and in chronic conditions, quite some (not all) people have energy stagnation ("liver qi stagnation"/"liver yang rising"/"liver fire") issues where taking such category-herbs means they might experience one or more side effects like Anger, Irritability, dizziness, swollen eyes to name afew, due to excess heat rising from "liver" region. For those people who have Heat pathogenic factor, such herbs must be avoided.

Summary: The 4 main points above just means they use up both of the body's "Jing"/stored energy reserves and "Qi"/immediate energy real fast without replacement. In TCM, they might give temporarily improved body health, but taken for some time (afew weeks/months), especially standalone, one might actually get less energetic and suffer side effects such as feeling Anger, irritability, dizziness.

Hence, in TCM they are very very harsh herbs used only in chronic conditions (autoimmune/heavy cold and dampness) for inflammation and pain reduction etc. They are constantly used in TCM actual practice and with continuous minor treatment adjustments, but are specifically combined with herbs that specifically to counter side-effects such via sinking "excess uprising heat" for longer-term use, for instance Abalone Shell/haliotis (Shi Jue Ming), Gentian Root (Long Dan Cao) or Oyster Shell (Mu Li) etc. These herbs that counter the side effects are intuitively, of "Cold" thermal nature naturally.

Note: There are still quite some more things naturally about inflammation and Arthritis issues which i have not stated here for the sake of simplicity so do not take what i have said above as a totally exact TCM framework process. Additionally, there are quite afew more significant differences between Arthritis and inflammation which i have not spoken about yet. This post is only an illustration of a possible but highly simplified TCM process to show that TCM has it's own structural framework process, not as a suggestion for actual treatment.
 

Tammy

Senior Member
Messages
2,167
Location
New Mexico
I am curious if you know of any resource that classifies some supplements ( other than Chinese herbs) as warm, cold,etc. etc. ie. VitB12. I don't know even how to word it to google.
 
Messages
78
I am curious if you know of any resource that classifies some supplements ( other than Chinese herbs) as warm, cold,etc. etc. ie. VitB12. I don't know even how to word it to google.

Hi Tammy,

I have tried finding that same information before as i am also currently taking supplements for general health maintenance. It is a difficult task no matter how you word it, is my experience. This information is sparse and widely spread out multiple various sites. It will be more readily available on Chinese-based websites probably, but i usually search anything online via English as i read English much faster than i do at reading Chinese. Personally, i have been taking afew of this supplements on a non-constant mixed ratio and frequent basis over multiple years and still do. For the sake of accuracy, i will tell you only 4 items that have common consensus in the TCM community and also corroborates with my personal consumption experience:


1. American Ginseng/Xi Yang Shen:
"Slightly Cold". In TCM, can be said to be the "best herb at almost instantly" nourishing "yin" of alot organs especially in serious chronic deficiency. Nourishes "Qi"/immediate usable energy, but effects at nourishing "Qi" are still much weaker than Red Ginseng (Korean and China). American Ginseng is commonly used in Asia for diabetes patients especially.

http://old.tcmwiki.com/wiki/xi-yang-shen

2. Chlorella:

"Cold" thermal property. Said to be one of the best "Jing/stored energy reserves" tonics due to the fact that the "Chlorella Growth Factor/CGF" allows chlorella it to reproduce 4 times in less than a day. It nourishes "kidney yin" and "Qi"

Personally: i find it very amazingly good at nourishing "Jing"/stored energy reserves, but it is too "Cold" and for people with "Dampness", there should be care in consumption/low consumption here as TCM says that "Cold" slows things down and indirectly contributes to "Dampness". Hence, i personally consume it together with "Warm" Spirulina to balance the thermal properties on a 1:1 ratio and maximum 2:1 ratio for times when i get too "Cold". In TCM, one symptom of too much "Cold" other than feeling "Cold" easily is when you get very loose watery stools and diarrohea though this is subjective because Chlorella is said to also have a detox function on digestion.

I have also personally observed detox characteristics over short time periods here, including flushed faces and rashes too etc) so the reactions might be too strong for some to handle.

Another side of the story here about Chlorella: I have had quite afew relatives consuming Chlorella and afew of their reactions was that it was extremely "hot" in property. My personal interpretation/theory (not TCM's) here is that this might occur because they have no "Jing/Stored energy" deficiency, so more "Jing" tonification here causes excessive heat.

3. Spirulina: Spirulina is "Warm'. Tonifies "blood-deficiency" and liver and Yang-Energy. Said to partially tonify "Jing/stored energy reserves" too.

Personally: i find that taking Spirulina gives me noticeably-improved "short-term brain energy that doesnt last if not taken (if sufficient dosage), while taking Chlorella over a longer time-duration seems to give the same effect too but the brain-energy impact seems to have a longer enduring timespan even after non-consumption.

4. Royal Jelly: In TCM, royal jelly is said to strongly tonify "Jing"/stored energy reserves, tonify "Heart, Spleen, "Liver" and improves the immune system dramatically.

TCM caution here (one TCM doctor told one of my family members): For people with sensitive nasals/environmental allergies, while Royal Jelly is very good, some sensitive allergies people might find their allergic symptoms (sneezing) getting worse, so caution must be exercised here. This is also confirmed by a family member who has slight unknown environmental allergies consuming it and getting worse in sneezing symptom till consumption was stopped.

Personally: i find that Royal Jelly has an overwhelming ability to simulate the immune system and improve body resistance to illness and as i am a relatively healthy individual, i find it abit strange/unsettling/disturbing somewhat (due to the vastly simulated immune system) so i have stopped consuming it after 6 months or so of daily constant consumption afew years ago.

http://old.tcmwiki.com/wiki/royal-jelly

===================================================================

"Brain Fog":

As you've probably noticed, one common point of all above is that i consume supplements that tonify "Jing"/stored energy reserves. This is due to my sickness experience 15 years ago for which i've experienced "brain fog" severely too, and at times not knowing how to walk home too. In TCM's view, one common cause of "brain fog" is due to "Jing"/stored energy reserves Deficiency, though there are also other factors like "dampness" too.

Over the multiple years since the time i have healed, i have found that whenever i feel a temporary lack of brain energy (over a afew hours or a day or so), consuming "Jing"/store energy reserve tonics never fails to improve my "brain energy" level.

My personal favourite for improving brain energy is Chlorella as i find it best if taken daily (at 2000+ mg) over a month (with additional accompanying Spirulina to balance thermal property), but great care is exercised here as i eat it only on my "less damp days". My personal view is that Chlorella can easily cause cold and dampness issues even for a healthy person. I have also found that the above supplements also give the same personal effects as TCM herbs that tonify "Jing"/stored potential energy too such as Rhemannia for instance

In TCM, the concepts/issues of Winter season, "Jing"/stored energy reserves and "Brain Fog" are highly related. If anyone is interested in hearing about this, yell out and i'll do a post on it sometime

Wish you all a Good Day Ahead :)

Wintersky
 

Tammy

Senior Member
Messages
2,167
Location
New Mexico
Thank you for that info....................if I were just guessing I would have thought that Spirulina had a "cooling" affect so I was curious that you mentioned Spirulina as warm and tonifies "blood deficiency" (always had a problem with" blood deficiency"). Do you have a link for that? (No biggie if you don't) Other sources I've seen says it has a cooling affect...........but it makes sense that if it helps with blood deficiency it would have a warm property to it. I'm currently taking Spirulina right now along with barley grass juice powder and licorice root. With winter coming I thought about tweaking the dosages of some of my supplements based on their properties.......that's one reason I was curious. I never thought of doing this until now.............your thread reminded of how herbs are used in TCM and I thought .......why not apply that to some of the things I'm taking.

Another supplement I'm taking....B12 is "yang" so I'm assuming it is warm.......also its vasodilator affects would indicate it to be warm. I think I was taking too much of the b12 this summer...(hot where I live)......it would often cause my face to flush...and I would get a warm flush.
 
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Messages
78
Hi Tammy,

For Spirulina, all the English websites ive seen so far classify it incorrectly as "Cool", as those sites group it together with Algaes which have "Cool" to "Cold" property due to their Sea exposure. Spirulina is well noted for usage in reducing fats/weight in Asia and the different herbal shops that ive went to before, their owners/workers all reflect that Spirulina is "Warm". Personally, all the people i know to be taking Spirulina also reflect that it is "Warm" too.

In TCM, tonifying blood is deemed very important for women, but not men as most women are more likely to suffer from related "Blood" problems such as early/late/irregular menstruation, menstruation pains etc. Hence, in Asia, tonifying blood via Angelica Sinensis ("warm") for women is a very common sight when one visits a TCM doctor. Note: in TCM, "Blood" here includes more than just blood volume but also blood nutrients and functions etc. For men, they are much more likely to suffer from "Qi"/immediate available energy deficiency issues.

For the record, in TCM, for tonifying blood, a wide range of thermal properties items are available not just "warm" only, for instance Rhemannia ("Neutral"), Red grapes (only mild tonifying "Blood" effect, but is "Cool") and White Peony Root ("Cool). However, Angelica Sinensis is said to be the best at tonifying "Blood" so it is more commonly used, especially for women.

Personally, ive found that Spirulina works abit differently than other "Jing" tonics in that it only has a minor to moderate effect at tonifying "Jing" but it strongly gives a huge and immediate (within hours) boost to brain energy which ive found to be very noticeable (at sufficient dosages).

One mention of Tonifying Blood is here:
http://www.liversupport.com/using-traditional-chinese-medicine-for-liver-and-eye-health/

Licorice Root is "slightly Cold" and its functions in TCM's view as belows;
http://old.tcmwiki.com/wiki/gan-cao


Wish you all a good day ahead ;)
Wintersky
 

Tammy

Senior Member
Messages
2,167
Location
New Mexico
For the record, in TCM, for tonifying blood, a wide range of thermal properties items are available not just "warm" only, for instance Rhemannia ("Neutral"), Red grapes (only mild tonifying "Blood" effect, but is "Cool") and White Peony Root ("Cool). However, Angelica Sinensis is said to be the best at tonifying "Blood" so it is more commonly used, especially for women.
I kind of thought that might be the case after I thought about it more. re: tonifying the blood and wide range of thermal properties.
Thanks again for the info.
 

Mij

Messages
2,353
Personally: i find that Royal Jelly has an overwhelming ability to simulate the immune system and improve body resistance to illness and as i am a relatively healthy individual, i find it abit strange/unsettling/disturbing somewhat (due to the vastly simulated immune system) so i have stopped consuming it after 6 months or so of daily constant consumption afew years ago.

I took Royal Jelly for over 2 months and it over stimulated my immune system. I may have had mono this past April and the Royal Jelly kept me in 'sick mode', my swollen glands disappeared once I stopped taking it and I started feeling better.