My Full Recovery By TCM + TCM issues Q&A

[Effi]

For most (most, if not all) people who has ever visited a TCM doctor, it is very rare that TCM doctor will show you the name labelling the name of the pills and herbal bottled drink. On reason is because your TCM doctor is a responsible doctor who cares for your safety and the 2nd reason is commercial secrecy.

This is what makes me a bit nervous... Although when we're honnest, do we really know exactly what we're swallowing when taking pills prescribed by a Western doctor? Probably not, most of the time... I guess we trust them in part because we trust in the legislation they are obliged to follow.
I agree that herbal decoctions can be very powerful, and it's not something to toy around with. So I guess it's all about finding a knowledgeable doctor that you trust...

 

[wintersky]

For the record, read my long post #19 as i consider it pivotal for a one-stop TCM overview of the 2 highly effective formulas (inclusive of Ginseng and Astralagus Combination@89.5% total effective CFS treatment). It's very lengthy i know but i'm already oversimplifying alot for your understanding.

Astragalus has been shown to have antiviral properties against coxsackievirus B.

I tried Bupleurum herb before, as this study and this study showed it can inhibit coxsackievirus B, which is strongly associated with ME/CFS. I did not notice much in terms of benefits for my ME/CFS, however.

I tried the Shu Di Huang version of Rehmannia before, as this study found that Rehmannia inhibits the secretion of the pro-inflammatory cytokines IL-1 and TNF-alpha from astrocyte cells in the brain.

Unfortunately again I did not notice any benefits, although I only took this herb for around 10 days.

Note that Rehmannia comes in two forms, Sheng Di Huang (raw Rehmannia) and Shu Di Huang (cooked Rehmannia). In this Rehmannia 6 formula they employ cooked Rehmannia. Cooked Rehmannia is much easier on the stomach, whereas raw Rehmannia can cause significant stomach pains (I know, because I tried raw Rehmannia and it took my stomach pains several days to clear, even though I only took one dose of the herb).

Hi Hip,

Hope you have read my post #19, which contains points that i shall repeat here again. In the case that you havent, afew important issues relevant to what you wrote above:

1. TCM never uses herbs individually/solo but in a multiple herbal combination to reduce nasty individual side effects as every herb has a related TCM contraindication. In alot cases, taking herbs solo might actually aggravate one's condition or create new problems... One rare herb exception is Ginseng, but even then, only if contraindications are not violated.

2. Another misconception is that TCM uses herbs according mostly to their anti-viral/anti-inflammatory effects for instance if its a viral/inflammation issue. Yes these effects are good to have and alot of TCM herbs also coincidentally happens to have those benefits but TCM considers choice of herb in a formula combination under a broader overview.

3. Cooked Rhemannia and Raw Rhemannia has very very different TCM properties and are used very differently for that reason. The TCM outlook is Rhemannia tonifies "jing/energy reserve storage" and not "Qi/already present and immediately useable energy". TCM views the best "Qi" tonic to be Asian Ginseng (steamed and sundried version), which alot or most people will feel a big energy boost within the day if correct dosage is eaten.

It is thought in TCM that Rhemannia effects can be felt only in weeks/months only if it is used in a formula correctly as it has a serious "damp-causing" side effect. Touch a piece of Rhemannia and you'll easily feel the oily sticky/cloying/damp nature

4. Just in case you eat raw Rhemannia raw: Raw Rhemannia is still cooked/decocoted in TCM formulas. No one eats raw Rhemannia without further cooking as it is deemed way too hard on digestion. By cooking/decocotion in TCM, it means a slow continuous low-temperature boiling for 5 hours for instance by a electronic steam cooker pot. Cooking fast for 30 minutes for instance under high temperatures is deemed in TCM to only bring out very low herbal effectiveness....

 

[Hip]

Thanks very much for your detailed replies @wintersky.

For TCM, it is mostly incorrect to eat a herb standalone without reducing it's side-effects. Effects are also much reduced too without combination from a TCM outlook and can actually make a pre-existing condition worse instead, especially with contraindications. This is very crucial.

In fact I did take some of the TCM recommended side effect-reducing herbs alongside Rehmannia glutinosa, which are cardamom, ginger or grains-of-paradise fruit (I took a good dose of ginger). However, even with the ginger, uncooked Rehmannia glutinosa (Sheng Di Huang) caused long lasting stomach pain. But I was fine with cooked Rehmannia glutinosa (Shu Di Huang).

I read the raw form of Rehmannia is better at fighting inflammation, so I would have preferred to use the raw form, but unfortunately the stomach pain it causes prevented that.

Like any herb, Rehmannia contains hundreds of active principles (chemical substances), but one of the most important appears to be catalpol. You can buy catalpol as a herbal extract from Chinese suppliers. I was thinking of trying catalpol, as it is possible that this substance on its own may be more effective, and may not cause the stomach pain of the full Rehmannia herb.

This study found catalpol is neuroprotective and can treat cognitive impairment (brain fog), so that may be very useful in ME/CFS.

Although of course, the benefits of Rehmannia may also come from other active principles within the herb.

Interestingly, Rehmannia seems to be one of the Chinese herbs that are used to treat autoimmune disorders, and there is increasing evidence that ME/CFS is an autoimmune disorder.

It's interesting that you say you need to take the Rehmannia for quite some time before benefits appear; I probably did not take it long enough then, as I stopped after 10 days.



The story of why I became focused on Rehmannia is a weird one: I have an interest in medicinal herbs and supplements, but I had never heard of Rehmannia. One night I had a dream in which I was discussing my various ME/CFS symptoms with a friend, and in this dream, the friend suddenly said to me: "you must take the herb raymania." This statement was made with such conviction that it woke me up.

It was still the middle of the night, so I just wrote down this word "raymania" on a notepad I had beside my bed, and went back to sleep. "Raymania" was just my guess at the spelling, because I only heard the name of the herb verbally in my dream.

The next day on awaking, I checked Google, and found that there is a Chinese herb called Rehmannia, which seemed like a good phonetic match to the name of the herb I heard in my dream.



Astragalus tends to significantly worsen my depression symptoms, so that is not a good one for me.

 

[wintersky]

In fact I did take some of the TCM recommended side effect-reducing herbs alongside Rehmannia glutinosa, which are cardamom, ginger or grains-of-paradise fruit (I took a good dose of ginger). However, even with the ginger, uncooked Rehmannia glutinosa (Sheng Di Huang) caused long lasting stomach pain. But I was fine with cooked Rehmannia glutinosa (Shu Di Huang).

I read the raw form of Rehmannia is better at fighting inflammation, so I would have preferred to use the raw form, but unfortunately the stomach pain it causes prevented that.

This study found catalpol is neuroprotective and can treat cognitive impairment (brain fog), so that may be very useful in ME/CFS.

Interestingly, Rehmannia seems to be one of the Chinese herbs that are used to treat autoimmune disorders, and there is increasing evidence that ME/CFS is an autoimmune disorder.

It's interesting that you say you need to take the Rehmannia for quite some time before benefits appear; I probably did not take it long enough then, as I stopped after 10 days.

Astragalus tends to significantly worsen my depression symptoms, so that is not a good one for me.

Hi Hip,

Hope you had a good day.

1. In TCM actual usage for avoiding dampness, Cardammon or Ginger are usually not that often used. There is a stronger preference for Poria (Fu Ling) with neutral thermal properties (not "cold' nor "warming"). Where a stronger function is needed for a "heaty" person or with kidney fire syndrome causing hypersexuality, Alismatis (Ze Xie) with "cold" thermal property is often used. Both these herbs work via diuretic property. Ginger and Cardammon are very "heaty" and is often used only in damp-cold conditions as their effects are too strong and create lots of "excessive internal heat" in the body. Personally, i get dry coughs/coughs whenever i take ginger as im slightly "heaty" as Ginger works on the "lung organs" too.

2. Unprocessed Rhemannia (Sheng Di huang) is in fact very tough for not just you but for alot of people. Hence, often, in TCM, a 1:1 ratio of Unprocessed Rhemannia to Poria (Fu Ling) is used. Additionally in TCM, unprocessed Rhemannia is contraindicated in people with spleen deficiency and diarrohea

http://old.tcmwiki.com/wiki/sheng-di-huang

3. With regards to Unprocessed Rhemannia (Sheng Di Huang) to fight inflammation: In TCM theory, inflammation can happen from wide ranging initial factors such as pathogens or blood deficiency. At the end stage after prolonged initial factors existence, it might manifest as heat in localized or general body regions in what is often called inflammation.

Personally, ive used Cinammon and Tumeric to stop inflammatory arthritis attack for my family member (attack stopped entirely within about 2 days of taking) when it happened and have stopped using them entirely and focused mostly on the underlying Original issues (tonifying Blood + Qi + Jing Deficiency). Inflammation (ESR) readings are high but no attack relapse exists for half a year and counting. In this case, Cinammon and Tumeric was useful because they break blood stasis which usually causes inflammation.

Additionally TCM notes the body region (upper, middle, lower) of inflammation and.applies circulation-promoting and blood-stasis dispersing herbs (both of the latter usually tends to be anti-inflammatory in Western studies as well). For instance, Pubescent Angelica Root (Du Huo) in TCM usage works mostly on inflammation issues in the lower half of the body with minimal effect on upper body half. Note, most anti-inflammatory herbs used in TCM, have ultra-harsh properties. Dosage, consumption duration and combination with herbs that reduce the side effects must be used together.

4. Cognitive Impairment (brain fog): In TCM, a common brain-fog cause is lack of "Jing". This might be due to cognitive/brain functions using up the most energy in a body and hence suffering the most when there is a lack of stored energy reserves. Amongst the "Jing/store energy reserve" tonifying herbs, Processed Rhemannia has been found in TCM to be the best herb at doing this so it is not surprising that it's been found in Western study that the Rhemannia 6 formula has high effectiveness in helping cognitive functions in CFS patients.

The other "Jing" herbs (non-exhaustive list but "Jing" herbs are very few frankly)

Semen Euryales (Qian Shi)
Schisandra (Wu Wei Zi)
Privet Fruit (Nu Zhen Zi)
Lycii Fructus (Gou QI Zi)
Cordyceps Sinensis (Dong Chong Xia Cao)
Corni Fructus (Shan Zhu Yu)
Fleeceflower Root (He Shou Wu)

Yes i have eaten all the above personally, but i still find Processed Rhemannia to be the best at increasing "Jing". Note: other than Processed Rhemannia and Cordycep Sinensis, all the other herbs above here have an annoying astringent property so be careful if you dont want this property.

5. In TCM, for autoimmune disorders, Rhemannia is often used because most Autoimmune patients have to been found to display deficiency factor of either "jing" or blood deficiency etc which often causes blood stasis. The other reason it is often used is because blood circulation promoting +dispel blood stasis herbs + "expel wind/damp/cold" herbs used to stop pain and reduce symptoms, does so by invigorating higher usage of the body's "Jing/stored energy reserves". Hence, the Processed Rhemannia usage in unison to prevent "Jing" depletion.

Raw Rhemannia if it's used in Autoimmune disorders, will likely be because of the need to balance the very 'warm/heaty" property inherent in most "expel wind/damp/cold" herbs so that people will not get excess heat (fevers) via their nourish "yin" and clear heat functions.

For autoimmune disorders say Rheumatic Arthritis, a common formula is "Du Huo Ji Sheng Tang" where the link below states a study of complete recovery in 86% patients and 91% total effective treatment rate for 104 patients. The high effective treatment rate also conforms with other Western studies ive read in the past on this formula and might be said to be due to the usage of Pubescent Angelica Root/"Du Huo" which has very harsh side-effects. In TCM, herbs with the harshest effects tend to have the best particular function and hence need to be used within a formula to reduce side effects.

http://www.aompress.com/book_vet/pdfs/Sample_04.pdf

6. In TCM, depression is viewed as having different possible causes. One possible cause is "lung qi deficiency" for which Astragalus is said to help tonify "lung qi" and actually improve depression but only if the cause is due to "lung qi deficiency". One TCM cardinal rule is to clear excess/deficient heat concurrently while doing any kind of tonification.

Further, Astragalus in particular has alot alot of TCM contraindications than most other herbs (read my link below), one of which includes internal obstruction (dampness). Unless you already have sufficient TCM knowledge to know how to combine it (with other herbs in a formula), it will cause more problems

http://old.tcmwiki.com/wiki/huang-qi

Whenever i use Astragalus in my decoction, i personally like to clear "lung-heat" by combining with either Radix Ophiopogonis/Mai Men Dong or more ideally Asparagus Root/Tian Men Dong. If i dont do so, i feel terribly heaty and will get sick

7. interesting dream. Nice. Rhemannia is one of the very famous and super-often used herbs in Asia/TCM. It is often considered as one of the few famous TCM herbal Treasures since ancient history. It can be and is consumed in TCM circles throughout the year, but increasing "Jing" effect is the best during Winter.

8. It seems you're already using alot of TCM herbs. It's interesting and nice to know you are self-experimenting and proving herb efficacy to find out which one works for you, but it is, as i must say, quite dangerous especially for TCM herbs (mostly with very strong functions) as you already have pre-existing chronic illness conditions (CFS). The current TCM herbal knowledge foundation is consolidated and safely compiled only because there were Asian people who self-tested herb properties on themselves since 3,000 years ago and on various patients. Some healthy medical practitioners even intentionally created medical conditions in themselves so that they could test certain herb's efficacy for that condition. Needless to say, alot of them understood the dangers and died in the process to advance medical knowledge (including individual herbal contraindications).

Let me give you a direct example of why this is dangerous: say Rhemannia since you like it (and i like it too)
For instance, Rhemannia is highly and commonly consumed in TCM and has been safely consumed without any medical incidents for decades (not that i know of at least). In Western Researcher medical studies of Rhemannia, it's also been deemed safe for long term consumption + has low toxicological effects.

However, TCM has discovered long long ago that if we tonify a totally healthy person with no "Jing/stored energy reserve" or "Qi" deficiency via Rhemannia or any other tonfication herb, for instance, that person can die due to too much total energy contained within him. In a previous analogy which i stated before somewhere, this is like overcharging a energy storage device ie battery which is well known by everyone to melt or even explode when overcharged. This issue does not come up in Western Rhemannia studies because most people, thankfully, dont have full "Jing" capacity due to busy lifestyles which use up alot energy + not knowing about eating nutritious/tonifying foods.

 

[Hip]

but it is, as i must say, quite dangerous especially for TCM herbs (mostly with very strong functions)

I have never heard of Chinese herbs (nor Indian, European, North or South American herbs) being dangerous in general. Certainly a few specific herbs can have some risks associated with their use. For example the betel nut is linked to oral cancer. And kava kava has led to liver failure in rare cases (but this herb is safe if you only use the roots, rather than the leaves and stem). But in general herbs are pretty safe.

 

[panckage]

I shall quote the below from this NCBI link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2816380/#B7

I am happy of your recovery @wintersky

This research though... I'm sorry but any reasearch from China that has not been replicated outside of China is pretty much worhless

In 2010, however, Nature had also noted rising concerns about fraud in Chinese research, reporting that in one Chinese government survey, a third of more than 6,000 scientific researchers at six leading institutions admitted to plagiarism, falsification or fabrication

http://io9.com/academic-fraud-in-china-is-getting-out-of-hand-1427658261
33% of researchers in China admitted to fraudulent research


Quotes from the article such as:

Herbal medicines are used by an increasing number of CFS patients primarily because of their perceived advantages such as being natural, effective and safe.

doesn't fill me with faith either

 

[wintersky]

I have never heard of Chinese herbs (nor Indian, European, North or South American herbs) being dangerous in general. Certainly a few specific herbs can have some risks associated with their use. For example the betel nut is linked to oral cancer. And kava kava has led to liver failure in rare cases (but this herb is safe if you only use the roots, rather than the leaves and stem). But in general herbs are pretty safe.

Hi Hip,

Frankly, herbs from anywhere in the world can be dangerous. While they may seem safe by themselves by not causing direct symptoms and consequences such as death/vomitting etc immediately days or weeks, they can gradually contribute to worsening one's health condition over time in self-imperceptible ways.

While herbs may not be generally dangerous, they can be dangerous to an individual with certain properties for which every individual has their own unique properties at any point in time. Think of it this way, all objects and bio-creatures especially in this world have their own differing scientific or medical properties even within their own species. The fact that there is a property means that there is also an opposite property, which also means that someone can make that property more pronounced or less pronounced.

Without even talking about herbs which mostly already have stronger functions than normal day to day food, take the case of acid reflux which is due to improper valve closing. Even seemingly normal food like oranges, grapes, apples which are very common safe foods can lead to big problems for acid reflux. Personally, i would know this well as i used to had this condition too.

Philosophically, foods by themselves are safe but when their properties are combined with the consuming individual's properties, certain property effects can be compounded with varying consequences for the individual, as for one instance, in the case of acid reflux. Similarly, anything that is outrightly dangerous can also be useful if used in the right instances, for instance, Arsenic which is used in TCM to kill toxic pathogen and parasites.

http://old.tcmwiki.com/wiki/arsenolite

A more closer example for me in real life was when i ate Wild Yam/Shan Yao. Wild Yam is an ultra common food in Asia Supermarkets. Every supermarket has it because it's so commonly eaten for thousands of years in Asia and said to be a good "Qi" tonic. I've never heard anyone getting problems from eating it as it's frequently cooked in foods. So afew years ago, silly me consumed more of it for 5 days in a row at a moderate quantity and it resulted in me having red hot painful swollen eyes which wouldnt heal. Ive never ever had these symptoms in my life, was perfectly healthy and my Western lab tests showed it too, and i wasnt consuming any unique supplements like Chia seeds nor TCM herbal tonics during that period then.

The mystery was solved only after a week+ when i realised it would have to do with the "safe" Wild Yam, for which upon much deeper digging did i find a mention online that the TCM contraindications were "liver yang rising" which caused the symptoms i had. I had had no idea i had an imperceptible and slight pre-existing "liver yang" issue until i ate the yam. After realising this, i managed to severely reduce the illness symptoms by taking cold thermal nature herbs which worked on the liver and rapidly reduced physical symptom severity within a day of consuming the "antidote".

http://chinese.herbs.webs-sg.com/articles_30.html

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, is what i have personally learnt from this Wild Yam and quite afew other similar herb-taking experiments (which ended in fairly ill outcomes). The other lesson i've learnt also is that what you think you know but dont really know, is what can kill you, more than literally. I have learned better since then

 

[wintersky]

Hi Panckage,

Sadly, if you ask me, personally, alot of medical research and non-medical scientific research from every country in the world is highly suspicious to me, not just China. The reality-based connection between research results and funding out of practicality creates it's own problems too. Goodnight all

A former researcher at Amgen Inc has found that many basic studies on cancer -- a high proportion of them from university labs -- are unreliable. During a decade as head of global cancer research at Amgen, C. Glenn Begley identified 53 "landmark" publications -- papers in top journals, from reputable labs -- for his team to reproduce. Begley sought to double-check the findings before trying to build on them for drug development.

Result: 47 of the 53 (89%) could not be replicated.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/28/us-science-cancer-idUSBRE82R12P20120328

The first meta-analysis looking into the prevalence of research misconduct was performed by Fanelli.[9] Examining “scientific behaviors that distort scientific knowledge” only, he showed that 2% of the scientists admitted to serious misconduct (falsification or fabrication of data) at least once, and up to 34% admitted other questionable research practices. When participants were asked about their colleagues’ practices, the results were even higher (14% for falsification of data and 72% for other questionable practices).[9] However, Fanelli suggests these results may only represent a conservative estimate of the real prevalence of research misconduct

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3702092/

 

[panckage]

Hi Panckage,

Sadly, if you ask me, personally, alot of medical research and non-medical scientific research from every country in the world is highly suspicious to me

Certainly research that has not been replicated is suspicious. What I have read about China specifically though is that raises are directly linked to the number of research papers produced.

Couple this with there being seemingly no penalty for plagiarism in China and this becomes a huge issue. I have read many stories from researchers who have had their papers plagiarized by Chinese 'researchers. ' The thing linking all of these stories was the absolute frustration about repeatedly reporting the plagiarism to the appropriate authorities and having no action taken. They eventually gave up because the Chinese authorities refused to do anything about it

 

[wintersky]

Certainly research that has not been replicated is suspicious. What I have read about China specifically though is that raises are directly linked to the number of research papers produced.

Hi Panckage,

The cancer studies not being replicated is especially disturbing to me, because they came from top journals and university labs where there is supposed to be higher statistical standards and where peer review and replication studies are more likely to be already done BEFORE actual publication, but dont stand under additional independent scrutiny.

If you ask me about the China numbers, fraud rates might actually be less than the rest of the countries in the world. There is no way we can objectively account for cultural differences or other variables etc in the admission of guilt. Different cultures would invariably have different guilt admission rates even for the same actual true fraud rates. With regards to plagiarism, China's issue arises in part from the fact that it does not have much Intellectual Property Laws in place nor is it seriously implemented.

Trying to quantify objectively the true extent of all these different type of issues is personally pointless to me as it is almost impossible to really quantify the true extent given it's social and psychology-based nature. Short of knowing that such problems exist pervasively in the entire world, the only thing one can do is to look as much as possible at studies that are placebo-controlled and double blinded etc etc and trust in what you self-deem to be more reliable.

Wish you all a good day ahead

Taradi et al., in a survey of 508 medical students, show that over 90% of the students admitted to engaging in education dishonestly and over 78% engaging in academic misconduct

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20797977

 

[wintersky]

Good Day All,

I was thumbing through a local library reference book and came across this book written in 1994 by an Italian TCM practitioner who has one main chapter devoted to ME. It is, i believe, one of the rare few books in English (maybe even the only english/english translated one) whereby ME is discussed in detail for about 30++ pages or so with individual clincal case studies and treatment along with the treatment. I did not read the whole chapter as it was lengthy but ill note a small part of the many things he said:

1. There isnt much knowledge in about ME, but ME can so far be characterized by a persistent viral factor and some patients might have constant "flu-like feelings". It might start from a viral infection that occurred, seemingly got treated and healed for some time, then relapsed and doesnt go away ever since.

2. For people with chronic illnesses, Sexual activity/self-ejaculation of any form must be abstained as it uses up alot of body energy (personally, in TCM it's a strict taboo as sex/ejaculation uses up the most "jing/stored energy reserves" in the human body)

3. Western medicine has it's own benefits but the usage of antibiotics in the ME case might make the illness almost life-permanent. This is because antibiotics create extreme "dampness" in the body. While antibiotics might be usable for the usual viral infections that will go away permanently once healed, for ME, the viral factor in ME is persistent. Once antibiotics is used in particular for the ME situation, the illness pathogens "get locked in the body"/astringent effect. Using anti-virals/antiobiotics continuously to try to directly kill viral factors that doesnt go away easily will just weaken the body. Instead, the better idea is to strengthen the body and improve the body's self-immunity 9via TCM tonics) as ME doesnt heal fast especially in chronic cases where even mobility is affected.

4. Very specific individual cases are discussed here. Alot of the clinical cases studies (this book was published in 1994) were undiagnosed ME but very specific individual symptoms are discussed here along with individual treatment formula, time length, extent of recovery for that particular patient etc. Most of the cases deal with ME-similar symptoms with mobility not yet affected (and easier to heal).

One interesting clinical study (this clinical study was one page long and i cant recall the entire long story, so ill just write afew sentences here):

Woman, 40 years old, who had been diagnosed as ME for 6 years. In the last year she was immobile in bed. A very long list of symptoms were presented and it was determined that the illness was of the worst TCM situations (from "extreme energy deficiency" instead of "excess" conditions where the individual is quite healthy). In this particular case, the formula was "Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang variation with Minor Chai Hu decoction" (also mentioned in a study in my post #2). The patient was briefly mentioned as almost completely healed after 2 years (ginseng cost was not spared in this treatment, whereby most doctors in the minding of patient cost, used Codonopsis/Dang Shen where effects are so much weaker and less effective)

Personally, the ME chapter here is very well discussed with multiple clinical cases, it's worth a serious read.
Giovanni Maciocia, The Practice of Chinese Medicine, 1994.

http://www.giovanni-maciocia.com/books/english/practisebk.html

Wish you all a good day ahead,
Wintersky

 

[Valentijn]

1. There isnt much knowledge in about ME, but ME can so far be characterized by a persistent viral factor and some patients might have constant "flu-like feelings".

No, it's characterized by Post-Exertional Malaise, and features numerous neurological, immune, and muscular symptoms.

3. Western medicine has it's own benefits but the usage of antibiotics in the ME case might make the illness almost life-permanent.

What a completely bizarre statement. Can you cite to reputable sources, or is this just the hypothetical belief of yourself or others? Do you believe that other illnesses are "locked in" by using antibiotics?

And can you explain how my ME got steadily worse for the first several years when I was not taking antibiotics, yet has markedly improved when taking IV and oral antibiotics?

Using anti-virals/antiobiotics continuously to try to directly kill viral factors that doesnt go away easily will just weaken the body. Instead, the better idea is to strengthen the body and improve the body's self-immunity 9via TCM tonics) as ME doesnt heal fast especially in chronic cases where even mobility is affected.

Are you suggesting that ME patients with documented bacterial or viral infections should not take antibiotics or antivirals as has been medically recommended by their licensed doctors?

Most of the cases deal with ME-similar symptoms with mobility not yet affected (and easier to heal).

"ME-similar" is not ME. Just as "chronic fatigue" is not CFS. Neither you nor the author, based on your account, seem to understand ME symptoms, nor what is known thus far about the biological mechanisms of ME.

Have you or the author considered putting your theories to the test? One simple method could be to expose yourself to Lyme disease and forego antibiotics. Until then, I don't think it's at all appropriate to recommend that other people abstain from effective medical treatment in favor of pseudo-medical philosophizing.

 

[Undisclosed]

Good Day All,

I was thumbing through a local library reference book and came across this book written in 1994 by an Italian TCM practitioner who has one main chapter devoted to ME. It is, i believe, one of the rare few books in English (maybe even the only english/english translated one) whereby ME is discussed in detail for about 30++ pages or so with individual clincal case studies and treatment along with the treatment. I did not read the whole chapter as it was lengthy but ill note a small part of the many things he said:

1. There isnt much knowledge in about ME, but ME can so far be characterized by a persistent viral factor and some patients might have constant "flu-like feelings". It might start from a viral infection that occurred, seemingly got treated and healed for some time, then relapsed and doesnt go away ever since.

There is quite abit more knowledge about ME than there was in 1994.

2. For people with chronic illnesses, Sexual activity/self-ejaculation of any form must be abstained as it uses up alot of body energy (personally, in TCM it's a strict taboo as sex/ejaculation uses up the most "jing/stored energy reserves" in the human body)

That is a sweeping ill-informed generalization by this author. There are many different types of chronic illnesses and many with these chronic illnesses have perfectly normal sex lives and the endorphins can be very beneficial.

3. Western medicine has it's own benefits but the usage of antibiotics in the ME case might make the illness almost life-permanent. This is because antibiotics create extreme "dampness" in the body. While antibiotics might be usable for the usual viral infections that will go away permanently once healed, for ME, the viral factor in ME is persistent. Once antibiotics is used in particular for the ME situation, the illness pathogens "get locked in the body"/astringent effect. Using anti-virals/antiobiotics continuously to try to directly kill viral factors that doesnt go away easily will just weaken the body. Instead, the better idea is to strengthen the body and improve the body's self-immunity 9via TCM tonics) as ME doesnt heal fast especially in chronic cases where even mobility is affected.

The concept of 'dampness' came about when there was little understanding of the human body. It has been debunked and replaced by real knowedge of how the human body works and what treatments work. There is no research that shows that long-term antibiotic use can make ME permanent. Antibiotics don't treat viral infections. If the author is publishing garbage like this, nothing he says can be taken seriously.

4. Very specific individual cases are discussed here. Alot of the clinical cases studies (this book was published in 1994) were undiagnosed ME but very specific individual symptoms are discussed here along with individual treatment formula, time length, extent of recovery for that particular patient etc. Most of the cases deal with ME-similar symptoms with mobility not yet affected (and easier to heal).

One interesting clinical study (this clinical study was one page long and i cant recall the entire long story, so ill just write afew sentences here):

Woman, 40 years old, who had been diagnosed as ME for 6 years. In the last year she was immobile in bed. A very long list of symptoms were presented and it was determined that the illness was of the worst TCM situations (from "extreme energy deficiency" instead of "excess" conditions where the individual is quite healthy). In this particular case, the formula was "Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang variation with Minor Chai Hu decoction" (also mentioned in a study in my post #2). The patient was briefly mentioned as almost completely healed after 2 years (ginseng cost was not spared in this treatment, whereby most doctors in the minding of patient cost, used Codonopsis/Dang Shen where effects are so much weaker and less effective)

Personally, the ME chapter here is very well discussed with multiple clinical cases, it's worth a serious read.
Giovanni Maciocia, The Practice of Chinese Medicine, 1994.

http://www.giovanni-maciocia.com/books/english/practisebk.html

Wish you all a good day ahead,
Wintersky

If TCM could cure ME, then there wouldn't be millions out there with ME. If TCM could cure all the diseases being claimed, then why are all these diseases so rampant despite millions trying various treatments offered by TCM practitioners..

I am glad that your chronic illness has resolved itself and you are better but for most of us it is not the answer.

 

[Hip]

Can you cite to reputable sources, or is this just the hypothetical belief of yourself or others? Do you believe that other illnesses are "locked in" by using antibiotics?

Although I very much doubt that antibiotics have any ability to precipitate or "lock in" a disease in general, interestingly enough, I did a bit of Googling and found that the aminoglycoside class of antibiotics (which includes gentamicin and streptomycin) appear to have the ability to trigger autoimmune diseases in mouse models, and ME/CFS may be autoimmune in nature.

The aminoglycosides apparently have the unique property of causing gene translation to read through stop codons in the genetic code, thereby producing longer proteins.

Prof Laurence Eisenlohr says: "A number of autoimmune diseases are thought to be triggered by infections. The results of this study suggest that certain antibiotics used to treat those infections may also contribute to that trigger."

Aminoglycoside antibiotics are not often used though, because of their toxicity.



Dr Chia has also found that corticosteroids inadvertently given during an acute enteroviral infection is a recipe for creating ME/CFS.

Apart from that though, I am not aware of any pharmaceutical drugs that can "lock in" a disease.

 

[Valentijn]

Aminoglycoside antibiotics are not often used though, because of their toxicity.

So they're a special case with a pretty unique action which wouldn't be causing much disease by virtue of not being used to treat infections anymore. And the vast majority of antibiotics are still off the hook for the accusations of "locking in" disease

 

[wintersky]

Hi Valentijn,

Let me say once more again, that this are only some of the points Giovanni said in his book. The factors discussion takes a lengthy 6 pages or so and i am unable to perfectly state all his points due to complexity too + the fact i doubt any of you will really go find the book and read the actual in-depth discussion. Hence, i have understated the points he said for the sake of brevity and simplicity, which has led to alot of misunderstanding. I had another go at the book today, so i'll go more precisely at the points you said using his exact words where i can.

No, it's characterized by Post-Exertional Malaise, and features numerous neurological, immune, and muscular symptoms.

"The main symptoms of ME are pronounced muscle fatigue and ache, poor memory and concentration, exhaustion, and a persisting intermittent, generally flu-like feeling.

... However, in my experience, there is a difference between "true" ME characterized by a persistent viral infection, and post-viral infection, characterized by disharmony of the internal organs etc..... "

- Giovanni Marciaco

1. Giovanni Marciaco mentioned more than just viral infection naturally, as one can see above in his own words. When i mentioned the persistent viral infection, it was in reference to his 2nd statement.

What a completely bizarre statement. Can you cite to reputable sources, or is this just the hypothetical belief of yourself or others? Do you believe that other illnesses are "locked in" by using antibiotics?

2. Once again, i shall quote from Giovanni in his own exact words below.

"Antibiotics are one of the most common causes of residual pathogenic factor in our society. Whilst they do destroy bacteria, from the point of view of Chinese Medicine, they tend to "lock" the pathogenic factor in the Interior and do not release the Exterior in the beginning stages of an exterior invasion, nor clear Heat, or resolve Phlegm in the later stages...

.... The 2nd option corresponds to the way antibiotics work: they kill the bacteria, but they do not get rid of the pathogenic factor (wind, cold, damp, heat). The body is therefore lumbered with a residual pathogenic factor. Furthermore, Chinese Medicine gets rid of the pathogenic factor by raising the immune response and strengthening the body resistance. Although antibiotics kill the harmful bacteria, they inevitably kill beneficial bacteria as well and leave the body weakened.

The above is not intended to be a critique of antibiotics but an objective analysis of their mode of action as compared with Chinese medicine. There are many instances when antibiotics do need to be used when an infection is advanced, widespread and potentially dangerous. In many cases, however, antibiotics are used unnecessarily and routinely.Furthermore, Chinese Medicine can be taken in conjunction with antibiotic therapy if necessary as the 2 work in different ways....

- Giovanni Marciaco

Personally, i think there are actually quite alot of scientific studies suggesting metaphorically, that antibiotics "lock illness in the body". I would not directly think of it as astringent effect only, but that they might make the illness and overall body health worse in a way. 4 different mechanisms, with quotes from studies, support this possible metaphorical view.

1st way: Antibiotics kill bad bacteria but also kill friendly bacteria in intestines, allowing other pathogens to multiply etc
2nd way: Antibiotics kill bacteria but has direct immuno-depressing effects, allowing lower immunity to illness. Lower immunity usually means a longer time to heal from bacteria, dont they?
3rd point: Antibiotics kill bacteria/pathogen but long usage might make for increased bacteria/pathogen resistance to antibiotics, making them harder to treat with antibiotics next time or become super-resistant.
4th point: Antibiotics kill bacteria and most bacteria strains that cant be killed totally, mutate and cause the bacteria strains to be fitter and deadlier, instead of weaker after mutation.

Hence, is it really illogical to think that antibiotics can cause longer illness symptoms by metaphorically "locking illness in the body"?

"Antibiotics open the door for these pathogens to take hold.... The authors explained that there is a significant rise in carbohydrate availability in the gut twenty-four hours after administering oral antibiotics. This temporary surplus of carbohydrates, plus a reduction of "good bacteria" in the gut, allows at least two potentially life-threatening pathogens to multiply rapidly"

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265506.php

There are three markedly immuno-enhancing antibiotics (imipenem, cefodizime and clindamycin) and eight markedly immuno-depressing antibiotics (erythromycin, roxithromycin, cefotaxime, tetracycline, rifampicin, gentamicin, teicoplanin and ampicillin)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8875279

"Antibiotics and similar drugs, together called antimicrobial agents, have been used for the last 70 years to treat patients who have infectious diseases. Since the 1940s, these drugs have greatly reduced illness and death from infectious diseases. However, these drugs have been used so widely and for so long that the infectious organisms the antibiotics are designed to kill have adapted to them, making the drugs less effective"

http://www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/

... The researchers were able to determine that mutations that convey resistance to antibiotics don't weaken a strain — they actually make it fitter. It's not entirely surprising that some mutations that lead to resistance enhance rather than reduce fitness, but surprising that nearly every mutation they studied had this effect

http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/22/9015505/antibiotic-resistant-bacteria-study-infection-deadliness

And can you explain how my ME got steadily worse for the first several years when I was not taking antibiotics, yet has markedly improved when taking IV and oral antibiotics?

Are you suggesting that ME patients with documented bacterial or viral infections should not take antibiotics or antivirals as has been medically recommended by their licensed doctors?

I am not a formally trained doctor and cannot make personal diagnosis, nor am i suggesting that ME patients stop taking antibiotics. If you read Giovanni Maciaco's exact words on the antibiotics issue, he did not say so, but said that it needs to be very carefully done because it was often over-abused and suggested also it might be beneficial to take both antibiotics with TCM herbals at the same time to reduce side-effects. It is good that you are improving in your conditions. But at the same time, i think i've also read some people saying that stopping the antibiotics after years of using it, produced relapses.

"ME-similar" is not ME.

For starters, the term "ME-similar" was used by me, not Giovanni. I coined this term here, because TCM does not have a direct symptom classification of all Western-classified illnesses, but is analyzed according to the individual conditions in the TCM framework such as in terms of "pathogenic factors" such as "cold", "damp", "wind", "heat" together the underlying individual's body constitution and organ disharmonies etc.

I believe all that ive said here, sufficiently clears up the miscommunication issues.

Wintersky

 

[Jenny]

Good Day All,

I was thumbing through a local library reference book and came across this book written in 1994 by an Italian TCM practitioner who has one main chapter devoted to ME. It is, i believe, one of the rare few books in English (maybe even the only english/english translated one) whereby ME is discussed in detail for about 30++ pages or so with individual clincal case studies and treatment along with the treatment. I did not read the whole chapter as it was lengthy but ill note a small part of the many things he said:

1. There isnt much knowledge in about ME, but ME can so far be characterized by a persistent viral factor and some patients might have constant "flu-like feelings". It might start from a viral infection that occurred, seemingly got treated and healed for some time, then relapsed and doesnt go away ever since.

2. For people with chronic illnesses, Sexual activity/self-ejaculation of any form must be abstained as it uses up alot of body energy (personally, in TCM it's a strict taboo as sex/ejaculation uses up the most "jing/stored energy reserves" in the human body)

3. Western medicine has it's own benefits but the usage of antibiotics in the ME case might make the illness almost life-permanent. This is because antibiotics create extreme "dampness" in the body. While antibiotics might be usable for the usual viral infections that will go away permanently once healed, for ME, the viral factor in ME is persistent. Once antibiotics is used in particular for the ME situation, the illness pathogens "get locked in the body"/astringent effect. Using anti-virals/antiobiotics continuously to try to directly kill viral factors that doesnt go away easily will just weaken the body. Instead, the better idea is to strengthen the body and improve the body's self-immunity 9via TCM tonics) as ME doesnt heal fast especially in chronic cases where even mobility is affected.

4. Very specific individual cases are discussed here. Alot of the clinical cases studies (this book was published in 1994) were undiagnosed ME but very specific individual symptoms are discussed here along with individual treatment formula, time length, extent of recovery for that particular patient etc. Most of the cases deal with ME-similar symptoms with mobility not yet affected (and easier to heal).

One interesting clinical study (this clinical study was one page long and i cant recall the entire long story, so ill just write afew sentences here):

Woman, 40 years old, who had been diagnosed as ME for 6 years. In the last year she was immobile in bed. A very long list of symptoms were presented and it was determined that the illness was of the worst TCM situations (from "extreme energy deficiency" instead of "excess" conditions where the individual is quite healthy). In this particular case, the formula was "Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang variation with Minor Chai Hu decoction" (also mentioned in a study in my post #2). The patient was briefly mentioned as almost completely healed after 2 years (ginseng cost was not spared in this treatment, whereby most doctors in the minding of patient cost, used Codonopsis/Dang Shen where effects are so much weaker and less effective)

Personally, the ME chapter here is very well discussed with multiple clinical cases, it's worth a serious read.
Giovanni Maciocia, The Practice of Chinese Medicine, 1994.

http://www.giovanni-maciocia.com/books/english/practisebk.html

Wish you all a good day ahead,
Wintersky

That woman, 40 years old, was me. (I was not really 'completely healed' however, though I was able to resume full-time work and look after 2 young children as a single parent, for 15 years.)

See http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nese-herbs-and-acupuncture.34053/#post-528480

 

[Tammy]

@wintersky.............I used to have Giovanni's book. I would have loved to have him as my TCM specialist! The first DOM I ever went to many years ago helped me get to about 70-80%! He was excellent......but unfortunately he ended up moving and the DOM that took his place was just not the same and I ended up sliding back down the scale.

I am curious since you seem to be very familiar with TCM...........(.sorry if you have already covered this question) in your opinion if a person has a mixture of deficiency and excess..............which one do you treat first............or do you treat both simultaneously?

 

[wintersky]

Hi Kina,

That is a sweeping ill-informed generalization by this author. There are many different types of chronic illnesses and many with these chronic illnesses have perfectly normal sex lives and the endorphins can be very beneficial.

Let me say once again for the sake of brevity and simplicity, I have only very briefly and inadequately stated Giovanni's view here as there were too many pages and various sub-points. Let me re-state on his actual view on this more precisely: People with chronic illnesses due to underlying "TCM-categorized energy deficiencies" such as "kidney yin deficiency" should abstain from having sexual activity/ejaculation. For people with chronic illness where the body does not suffering from underlying energy deficiencies but where pathogenic factors are the predominant issue, there need be no worries about having sexual activities. For the 2nd scenario of no serious underlying deficiency, TCM actually thinks that it can be very beneficial as energy courses through the body during sexual activity, causing better blood flow and energy flow to name a few.

There is no research that shows that long-term antibiotic use can make ME permanent. Antibiotics don't treat viral infections. If the author is publishing garbage like this, nothing he says can be taken seriously.

First, i did not use the word "permanent". I used the words "almost permanent". Second, antibiotics dont treat virals, that is correct. I have misquoted his words with my faulty memory. Giovanni did not mention antibiotics treating virals, but antibiotics treating bacteria. I've requoted his exact words in a previous message so please read that to clear up the misunderstanding due to my faulty memory. Or better, read the exact book for yourself to ensure i'm telling the truth

The concept of 'dampness' came about when there was little understanding of the human body. It has been debunked and replaced by real knowedge of how the human body works and what treatments work.

Frankly, you are making very sweeping statements when you have very little concept of TCM. "Dampness" is still a relevant concept since thousands of years ago till now even. For specific instance, the concept of "dampness" can be seen in one manifestation in water/fluid retention patients suffering from Edema and i'm sure there are still Edema patients today. Sure, nowadays, there is increased understanding of how the body works and what treatments work, but for instance in Edema, it was noted thousands of years ago in TCM medical texts that one way of treatment was via diuretic herbs, for instance Poria. Last i checked, i'm pretty sure one way of treatment of Edema now in the modern 21st Century Western Medical world includes Diuretics too

Another instance is cerebral ischemia (insufficient blood flow) where a Codonopsis based extract has only been found lately in Western studies to be useful. For this it's been noted that in TCM ancient texts too that it invigorates blood flow when blood flow is slow in the body.

There are also many different new concepts which have not been sufficiently explored by the Western world. For instance, it is only lately that there is an astringent concept in Western circles but with no serious and wide medical usage yet. However, the astringent concept has been used successfully in Asia for long to treat diarrohea, spermatorrohea, profuse sweating etc because it arrests body outflow of material such as "Qi/energy", liquids etc

There are so many many instances that i can go on forever. Personally, i have consumed lots of TCM herbs over the years and observed their physical effects and use under contraindications and i was surprised that i had very little cause to refute a vast majority of the ancient TCM medical texts on herbal knowledge/effects/contraindications.

If TCM could cure ME, then there wouldn't be millions out there with ME. If TCM could cure all the diseases being claimed, then why are all these diseases so rampant despite millions trying various treatments offered by TCM practitioners..

First, you are making very sweeping statements. Even in his book, Giovanni did not say that TCM definitely cured all ME. In his clinical cases mentioned, the closest he came to saying for some of the cases was, most symptoms recovered upon treatment and in 1 particular chronic case, he mentioned the patient as coming close to complete recovery. Personally, i believe that he was realistic and experienced enough to know that in chronic illnesses, there is a possibility of relapse far into the future, especially if there are still minor symptoms left. For whatever reasons, he did not ever mention 100% total recovery on his clinical studies on ME.

I wouldnt know about the millions of ME people out there. But i do know that both Western and Eastern medical community do realise that for diseases, there is also a recognition of disease treatment difficulty according to how advanced in symptoms and chronic a disease is. TCM nor Western Medicine or any medical tradition i believe, will ever claim to treat successfully 100% of all clinical cases where some cases will involve especially difficult chronic condition.

I cannot speak for other medical traditions, but for TCM, most people wrongly assume that herbal medicine is the entire treatment method. In TCM, patients themselves are in charge of the other half of treatment, by following personal lifestyles and diet that makes their body healthy by avoiding what aggravates their conditions, by not eating certain foods, sleeping late, avoiding environmental-related things etc etc. Most TCM doctors will only mention 1 or 2 items to note out of many many others as it is too lengthy to discuss all. For instance, how many people follow advice like not sleeping late? (10pm or so is late already for most seasons)

Another issue here is that your mileage for treatment via TCM doctors varies alot alot alot due to varying experience and talent levels by the doctor, along with the complex nature of TCM illness diagnosis where there is no exact illness name for a given symptom set as is the case in Western Medicals. TCM, on the other hand, doesnt group the symptoms into one overrriding "label/name" because it believes in part that alot of people with generally similar symptoms doesnt mean simplistically that everyone will be having the same illness and same treatment will cure all. Sometimes, the latter is true, but sometimes it will not. As you can imagine, the latter framework is more complicated to actualize in real life correctly. This is known in TCM as the principle of "Similar symptoms but Different Illness Origins, and Different Symptoms but Similar Underlying Illness Origins".

I shall stop here for today as it is getting very late by my side. Hope we have cleared up some miscommunication here. Wish you a good day ahead (or night)

Wintersky

 

[Hip]

That woman, 40 years old, was me. (I was not really 'completely healed' however, though I was able to resume full-time work and look after 2 young children as a single parent, for 15 years.)

See http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nese-herbs-and-acupuncture.34053/#post-528480

Well there's a small world!


So from Giovanni Maciocia's book: in the 1990s you were "immobile in bed" from ME/CFS, but were able to go back to work after two years of treatment taking the following herbal formulas:

Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang (ginseng and astragalus combination), and
Minor Chai Hu, by which I am guessing Giovanni means: Xiao Chai Hu Tang (minor bupleurum decoction).

The ingredients of both these two formulas are given in this post.


And from your thread: you relapsed back into ME/CFS in 2004 after a minor skiing accident, but you later again attained remission from ME/CFS in 2012, after six months of fortnightly acupuncture, and taking twice daily a Chinese herbal formula given to you by the TCM partitioner Dr Dan Jiang in London. You say you don't know the name of this Chinese herbal formula prescribed by Dr Dan Jiang because it is written in Chinese.


One question I have: when you relapsed back into ME/CFS after the minor skiing accident, did you try taking the original herbal formulas that Giovanni Maciocia gave you?