Muscle sodium content in patients with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

SWAlexander

Senior Member
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2,049
My temperature has rarely been above 97.7, and recently has gone down to 96.6.

I have about the same 96,8 average. Even when I had sepsis my temp did not go higher than 101 but my BP was 196.
Maybe it is time for many of us to have a thyroid check and don´t just believe the TSH test.
Just hope it will not turn out as mine. https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...e-metabolic-derangement-diseases.89093/page-2 #29
Wonder what my PCP recommends tomorrow about my thyroid.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,152
I just ordered a thyroid glandular from iherb. We'll see how it goes.

Keep us posted about what your PCP recommends.
 
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bertiedog

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South East England, UK
There may be something in my throid (mercury, etc)?

It's really interesting that you have written that because it was through learning about mercury poisoning which was confirmed by blood tests on how my immune system over-reacted to mercury, that I learned all about a likely connection to the thyroid and adrenals. That was way back in 2001 and I thought when I sorted it all out I would be fit and well and no longer have ME/CFS!

It took at least 5 years for my immune system to stop reacting very strongly to mercury after I had all my 13 amalgam fillings safely removed plus one gold crown and did safe chelation over many rounds. When the gold crown was removed the dentist said there was amalgam underneath, to the top and around that tooth which was setting up a circuit giving me even more issues with the mercury. And to think in the early 90s I asked my dentisit could that be causing my ill health which had started in 1979, and his answer was absolutely not, there was no evidence mercury was leaching from my fillings into my body! How wrong he was but there was no internet in those days to easily check stuff out.

My blood tests for thyroid from 1996 onwards always looked ok with a low TSH and they stayed that way even in 2001 except I emailed my results to Andy Cutler who was the amalgam guru at the time and he said they were abnormal because my TSH was very low but so was the free T4 being bottom of the range and T3 also low. This knowledge sent me off to see a private Endo (who I didn't even know was an Endo) who practised complimentary medicine. He got me to redo my thyroid blood tests and agreed with Andy Cutler I had a big problem. He prescribed Armour dessicated thyroid plus hydrocortisone for my under functioning adrenals which had also shown up in a 24 hour saliva cortisol/DHEA test. I think the thyroid results indicated a pituitary issues which would have been affected by the mercury issue because once I had got that level down to normal, my TSH started to work ok.

The private doctor noticed that my cortisol was lowish but not bottomed out whereas my DHEA was sky high at every point of the test. He noted my history of loosing 4 pints of blood immediately after childbirth in 1975 and me getting 2 weeks of flu in 1979 from which I couldn't recover plus the symptoms I was suffering with ever since that time and put it all together into a long standing adrenal issue..

I have to say that i found it extremely difficult to find a sweet spot with my thyroid medication and I still cannot really even now say levels are perfect but I guess that is because of what is going on with ME/CFS. However by treating my endocrine system it did give me my life back to a degree but frequent viruses which always cause me big problems have never left me unfortunately especially during October - March.

I hope that you can do further investigations into any endocrine issues because it can make a huge difference to functioning. Just to say I still average over 8000 steps a day even though I am now 74 and do tend to bounce back after these viruses and without endocrine support this would never happen.

Pam
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
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2,049
Keep us posted about what your PCP recommends

She said thyroid surgery not needed now. Close observation and sonogram test in 3 months.
My before very high T3 is suddenly "normal".
PCP remarks: "it surprises me how your blood test variate so suddenly" all other tests are much better except these 3.
1671019462087.png
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,152
@bertiedog I can't believe how similar our stories are. I am 73, had 16 amalgam fillings removed in the 1990's, had a child in 1972 and lost a lot of blood but not sure how much. I thought having them removed would be the cure, but it wasn't. It took me two years after getting them removed to be able to hold a decent conversation.

Someone who did some sort of muscle testing said I also had molybdenum in my thryoid. This was pretty many years after having the amalgam removed. In trying to figure out where that came from, I found that molybdenum is used in x-rays. I had had a c scan done for my heart issues, which is maybe 70 x-rays. It's the only thing I could figure out. I never read anything about how to deal with that.

I also had nickel toxicity.

But that's interesting about the involvement of the pituitary. That would mess up the HPA axis.

We were part of the first wave of chronic fatigue. Back then doctors told you it was a psychological problem, and I have been told some doctors still do that. I see that they are trying to pull that with long COVID. It's such a shame.

You were very fortunate to find good doctors.

I hope the thyroid glandular will help me this time around. I will probably start with just part of a capsule and work my way up.
 

SWAlexander

Senior Member
Messages
2,049
I hope the thyroid glandular will help me this time around. I will probably start with just part of a capsule and work my way up.

I would be very interested to know.

You were very fortunate to find good doctors.

No, I did not have good doctors. First, they called me a hypochondriac. Then I told them what I need to have checked and the blood test results confirmed my preliminary diagnosis. Now I have a bad reputation as a "no cooperative patient" because I don´t swallow the pills they prescribe or I refuse to follow their protocol.
I also walked out in the middle of a consultation when he told me to see a psychologist.

If I see a new doctor I send them a summary of my medical history and ask if they are ready to see me. They don´t say no, but they schedule the appointment in 6 months or so. I answer them "message taken", no thank you.
I tell every doctor I´m not ready to die yet.

I had had a c scan done for my heart issues, which is maybe 70 x-rays. It's the only thing I could figure out. I never read anything about how to deal with that.
This is very interesting. how can we find out? A whole mineral or a single mercury blood test (not a urine test) may confirm exposure to an elemental or inorganic source of mercury.
 
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bertiedog

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South East England, UK
@Violeta how weird that we are so similar. BTW I also have the nickel toxicity issue and have for years. It’s the reason I don’t wear any jewellery anymore because even gold can leach nickel as well as stainless steel.
I was told by Dr Myhill that not only was my immune system being poisoned by the mercury I was also allergic to it!

Good luck with the thyroid glandular I took them before getting thyroid meds but I needed 6 a day to feel any benefit.

Pam
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,152
I would be very interested to know.



No, I did not have good doctors. First, they called me a hypochondriac. Then I told them what I need to have checked and the blood test results confirmed my preliminary diagnosis. Now I have a bad reputation as a "no cooperative patient" because I don´t swallow the pills they prescribe or I refuse to follow their protocol.
I also walked out in the middle of a consultation when he told me to see a psychologist.

If I see a new doctor I send them a summary of my medical history and ask if they are ready to see me. They don´t say no, but they schedule the appointment in 6 months or so. I answer them "message taken", no thank you.
I tell every doctor I´m not ready to die yet.


This is very interesting. how can we find out? A whole mineral or a single mercury blood test (not a urine test) may confirm exposure to an elemental or inorganic source of mercury.

Sorry, the good doctors comment was for bertiedog. Most doctors, especially when this first started hitting were like you said.

I had a hair analysis that showed high mercury. That was before the c scan, but maybe a hair analysis would show exposure. Although if the metal/mineral is locked up in a gland, it might not show up.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,152
@Violeta how weird that we are so similar. BTW I also have the nickel toxicity issue and have for years. It’s the reason I don’t wear any jewellery anymore because even gold can leach nickel as well as stainless steel.
I was told by Dr Myhill that not only was my immune system being poisoned by the mercury I was also allergic to it!

Good luck with the thyroid glandular I took them before getting thyroid meds but I needed 6 a day to feel any benefit.

Pam
Gee, you had nickel toxicity, too. Interesting about being allergic to mercury, I's never heard of that.

I'm glad you mentioned how many thyroid glandulars you had to take. I was looking around to get some idea of dosing.
 

Murph

:)
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1,803
This study is fascinating. Comes out of nowhere, seemingly. I've never heard of any other me/cfs research covering sodium content in muscles. But because this is Scheinbenbogen i'm paying very serious attention. I think her work on alpha and beta autoantibodies is extremely important; I'm convinced bloodflow and endothelial dysfunction matter a lot to a subset of patients.

What i've found is the sodium study seems to be related to this hypothesis which they published in 2021. I put the key part in bold:
---
Pathophysiology of skeletal muscle disturbances in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS)



Abstract
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or Myalgic Encephaloymelitis (ME/CFS) is a frequent debilitating disease with an enigmatic etiology. The finding of autoantibodies against ß2-adrenergic receptors (ß2AdR) prompted us to hypothesize that ß2AdR dysfunction is of critical importance in the pathophysiology of ME/CFS. Our hypothesis published previously considers ME/CFS as a disease caused by a dysfunctional autonomic nervous system (ANS) system: sympathetic overactivity in the presence of vascular dysregulation by ß2AdR dysfunction causes predominance of vasoconstrictor influences in brain and skeletal muscles, which in the latter is opposed by the metabolically stimulated release of endogenous vasodilators (functional sympatholysis).

An enigmatic bioenergetic disturbance in skeletal muscle strongly contributes to this release. Excessive generation of these vasodilators with algesic properties and spillover into the systemic circulation could explain hypovolemia, suppression of renin (paradoxon) and the enigmatic symptoms. In this hypothesis paper the mechanisms underlying the energetic disturbance in muscles will be explained and merged with the first hypothesis. The key information is that ß2AdR also stimulates the Na+/K+-ATPase in skeletal muscles. Appropriate muscular perfusion as well as function of the Na+/K+-ATPase determine muscle fatigability. We presume that dysfunction of the ß2AdR also leads to an insufficient stimulation of the Na+/K+-ATPase causing sodium overload which reverses the transport direction of the sodium-calcium exchanger (NCX) to import calcium instead of exporting it as is also known from the ischemia–reperfusion paradigm.

The ensuing calcium overload affects the mitochondria, cytoplasmatic metabolism and the endothelium which further worsens the energetic situation (vicious circle) to explain postexertional malaise, exercise intolerance and chronification. Reduced Na+/K+-ATPase activity is not the only cause for cellular sodium loading. In poor energetic situations increased proton production raises intracellular sodium via sodium-proton-exchanger subtype-1 (NHE1), the most important proton-extruder in skeletal muscle. Finally, sodium overload is due to diminished sodium outward transport and enhanced cellular sodium loading. As soon as this disturbance would have occurred in a severe manner the threshold for re-induction would be strongly lowered, mainly due to an upregulated NHE1, so that it could repeat at low levels of exercise, even by activities of everyday life, re-inducing mitochondrial, metabolic and vascular dysfunction to perpetuate the disease.

---

SO the basic idea here is during exercise the body is supposed to clear sodium out of the muscle cells using a little pump. That pump isn't working properluy. They seem to have two theories on why, one being a lack of ATP due to unknown energy production problems. The other being problems with alpha-adrenergic receptors.

When sodium builds up too high, the muscle cells start sucking in calcium instead of spitting it out. That's when things go really bad. mitochondria stop making energy properlu and they argue the endothelium gets damaged too (weird flip from subcellular to more macrolevel tissue here?).

My takes:
1. Sounds plausible but I'm definitely nervous about the fact that so many of us with POTS benefit from high sodium diets. How can that possibly be consistent?! Presumably inceasing dietary sodium lifts plasma sodium, which increases the sodium gradient, and makes it even easier for sodium to get into cells? It leaves me wondering if maybe intracellular sodium might be beneficial/compensatory rather than pathological ... but then we do see that chart above saying higher intracellular sodium is correlated with lower strength. is that proof one way or another? idk. Notably they suggest eating more potassium. Bananas all round!

2. theories are cheap. There's enough conflicting data and moving parts in mecfs that a person with an education in biology can assemble a compelling-sounding narrative pretty easily. I'm glad they're getting data to test the theory. Sample size is small though and also, there's probably an infinity of other theories that could make sense to explain the finding, not just the one they are trying to test.

3. this must link up somehow with Australia's Griffith University team and their obsession with the trpm3 calcium channel? (prove it, disprove it, i'm not sure. griffith seems to think the trpm3 isn't working well and not enough calcium is going in the cell. What if the body has shut down trpm3 because there's enough Ca2+ in there already?)
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,152
Not so sure yet. All I know NLRP3 is interleukin-1β (IL-1β) and IL-18 (genetic) a form of cell death. Bacteria could be the cause. This was my experience with sepsis.
That paper I linked made it appear that NLRP3 caused the K+efflux and Na influx, or else I misunderstood, but this paper explains that NLRP3 activation is caused by the K+ efflux.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41419-019-1413-8
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,152
This study is fascinating. Comes out of nowhere, seemingly. I've never heard of any other me/cfs research covering sodium content in muscles. But because this is Scheinbenbogen i'm paying very serious attention. I think her work on alpha and beta autoantibodies is extremely important; I'm convinced bloodflow and endothelial dysfunction matter a lot to a subset of patients.

What i've found is the sodium study seems to be related to this hypothesis which they published in 2021. I put the key part in bold:
---
Pathophysiology of skeletal muscle disturbances in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS)



Abstract
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or Myalgic Encephaloymelitis (ME/CFS) is a frequent debilitating disease with an enigmatic etiology. The finding of autoantibodies against ß2-adrenergic receptors (ß2AdR) prompted us to hypothesize that ß2AdR dysfunction is of critical importance in the pathophysiology of ME/CFS. Our hypothesis published previously considers ME/CFS as a disease caused by a dysfunctional autonomic nervous system (ANS) system: sympathetic overactivity in the presence of vascular dysregulation by ß2AdR dysfunction causes predominance of vasoconstrictor influences in brain and skeletal muscles, which in the latter is opposed by the metabolically stimulated release of endogenous vasodilators (functional sympatholysis).

An enigmatic bioenergetic disturbance in skeletal muscle strongly contributes to this release. Excessive generation of these vasodilators with algesic properties and spillover into the systemic circulation could explain hypovolemia, suppression of renin (paradoxon) and the enigmatic symptoms. In this hypothesis paper the mechanisms underlying the energetic disturbance in muscles will be explained and merged with the first hypothesis. The key information is that ß2AdR also stimulates the Na+/K+-ATPase in skeletal muscles. Appropriate muscular perfusion as well as function of the Na+/K+-ATPase determine muscle fatigability. We presume that dysfunction of the ß2AdR also leads to an insufficient stimulation of the Na+/K+-ATPase causing sodium overload which reverses the transport direction of the sodium-calcium exchanger (NCX) to import calcium instead of exporting it as is also known from the ischemia–reperfusion paradigm.

The ensuing calcium overload affects the mitochondria, cytoplasmatic metabolism and the endothelium which further worsens the energetic situation (vicious circle) to explain postexertional malaise, exercise intolerance and chronification. Reduced Na+/K+-ATPase activity is not the only cause for cellular sodium loading. In poor energetic situations increased proton production raises intracellular sodium via sodium-proton-exchanger subtype-1 (NHE1), the most important proton-extruder in skeletal muscle. Finally, sodium overload is due to diminished sodium outward transport and enhanced cellular sodium loading. As soon as this disturbance would have occurred in a severe manner the threshold for re-induction would be strongly lowered, mainly due to an upregulated NHE1, so that it could repeat at low levels of exercise, even by activities of everyday life, re-inducing mitochondrial, metabolic and vascular dysfunction to perpetuate the disease.

---

SO the basic idea here is during exercise the body is supposed to clear sodium out of the muscle cells using a little pump. That pump isn't working properluy. They seem to have two theories on why, one being a lack of ATP due to unknown energy production problems. The other being problems with alpha-adrenergic receptors.

When sodium builds up too high, the muscle cells start sucking in calcium instead of spitting it out. That's when things go really bad. mitochondria stop making energy properlu and they argue the endothelium gets damaged too (weird flip from subcellular to more macrolevel tissue here?).

My takes:
1. Sounds plausible but I'm definitely nervous about the fact that so many of us with POTS benefit from high sodium diets. How can that possibly be consistent?! Presumably inceasing dietary sodium lifts plasma sodium, which increases the sodium gradient, and makes it even easier for sodium to get into cells? It leaves me wondering if maybe intracellular sodium might be beneficial/compensatory rather than pathological ... but then we do see that chart above saying higher intracellular sodium is correlated with lower strength. is that proof one way or another? idk. Notably they suggest eating more potassium. Bananas all round!

2. theories are cheap. There's enough conflicting data and moving parts in mecfs that a person with an education in biology can assemble a compelling-sounding narrative pretty easily. I'm glad they're getting data to test the theory. Sample size is small though and also, there's probably an infinity of other theories that could make sense to explain the finding, not just the one they are trying to test.

3. this must link up somehow with Australia's Griffith University team and their obsession with the trpm3 calcium channel? (prove it, disprove it, i'm not sure. griffith seems to think the trpm3 isn't working well and not enough calcium is going in the cell. What if the body has shut down trpm3 because there's enough Ca2+ in there already?)

Wow, very interesting, although I don't understand a lot of it yet. And I see Cort has an article about Scheinbenbogen and Wirth.

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...chronic-fatigue-syndrome-wirth-scheibenbogen/

But what do you think about this?

"In most of the tissues, the activity of sodium potassium pumps is regulated by the thyroid hormones. In hypothyroidism, this enzyme is affected due to deficiency of thyroid hormones and low potassium levels which leads to accumulation of water inside the cells leading to edema."
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,152
They seem to have two theories on why, one being a lack of ATP due to unknown energy production problems.

Makes you wonder which came first, the intracellular sodium excess or the "unknown energy production problems."

Deficient thyroid hormone?

Causing deficient potassium.

Causing deficient insulin?
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,152
Hm maybe mecfs would be highly associated with edema then if this theory from W&S was correct. Thats not the case i think. @Violeta

On the other hand high intracellular calcium could explain why trpm3 doesnt work properly as pointed out by Murph.

High intracellular sodium, which is what W&S found in people with me/cfs, is a cause of intracellular edema.

The high intracellular sodium is what W&S explained as the cause of high intracellular calcium.

I'm not saying the trpm3 is not involved. Has anyone found out what causes trpm3 to be misfunctioning?

"High intracellular sodium can reverse the transport direction of the sodium–calcium exchanger (NCX) to import calcium instead of exporting which is also known from the ischemia–reperfusion paradigm."
 
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Messages
600
High intracellular sodium, which is what W&S found in people with me/cfs, is a cause of intracellular edema.

The high intracellular sodium is what W&S explained as the cause of high intracellular calcium.

I'm not saying the trpm3 is not involved. Has anyone found out what causes trpm3 to be misfunctioning?

"High intracellular sodium can reverse the transport direction of the sodium–calcium exchanger (NCX) to import calcium instead of exporting which is also known from the ischemia–reperfusion paradigm."
And therefore if their theory is correct we should see widespread edema in pwme but we dont really see that.

I cant remember exactly what caused problems with trpm3 but if there is already too much intracellular calcium i think its signalling effects would be compromised.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,152
And therefore if their theory is correct we should see widespread edema in pwme but we dont really see that.

I cant remember exactly what caused problems with trpm3 but if there is already too much intracellular calcium i think its signalling effects would be compromised.

While parts of their article are theoretical, the part about post-exertional levels of sodium in muscle tissue being higher in pwme than in controls is not theoretical.
 
Messages
600
While parts of their article are theoretical, the part about post-exertional levels of sodium in muscle tissue being higher in pwme than in controls is not theoretical.
Its one small pilot study, i dont view this as an established truth yet.
 
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