• Phoenix Rising needs funds to operate: please consider donating to support PR

Much worse after short course of Equilibrant

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 5
Messages
910
Likes
949
Location
Eastern NC USA
Dr Chia found that if you are a responder to oxymatrine, you may need go through the storm to get to the calm of better health on the other side. And after passing through the storm, Dr Chia found that you may have to keep taking the oxymatrine in order to maintain your gains. If you stop taking oxymatrine at that point, then your ME/CFS symptoms may return. That has been Dr Chia's experience.

However, if you did stop taking it and got worse again, in most cases (but not all), Dr Chia found that starting a second course of oxymatrine again led to an improvement in symptoms. But in some cases, you don't get a second chance (ie, the oxymatrine does not work the second time).
I went through the Equilibrant formula and wasn't impressed. It seems to be a mix of apoptosis stimulators (Oxymatrine/Sophros, Shitake mushroom) and apoptosis inhibitors (Vit D, A, olive leaf extract, oxymatrine effect on caspase-3) along with antivirals (olive leaf extract) to reduce viral reproduction. Apoptosis is a tricky process to activate when you have strong viral inhibitors at work and it makes no sense to include apoptosis inhibitors in the formula. I decided to avoid it and hand select better supplements to try that don't have these problems and should give a better response. His response wasn't that great anyway, it took a year of treatment and people backslid if they stopped the supplement. No wonder it isn't that popular.
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 5
Messages
910
Likes
949
Location
Eastern NC USA
Equilibrant is a brand of oxymatrine. I don't know which type of oxymatrine Dr Chia's son used, nor which Dr Chia recommends.
Actually Equilibrant is a combination of herbs that includes oxymatrine (Sophros extract). So it isn't correct to call it a brand of oxymatrine.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
14,692
Likes
28,864
I went through the Equilibrant formula and wasn't impressed. It seems to be a mix of apoptosis stimulators (Oxymatrine/Sophros, Shitake mushroom) and apoptosis inhibitors (Vit D, A, olive leaf extract, oxymatrine effect on caspase-3) along with antivirals (olive leaf extract) to reduce viral reproduction.
I don't know any ME/CFS researcher or clinician who has ever talked or published on the need to stimulate apoptosis.

What they usually talk about is stimulating the Th1 antiviral immune response, which oxymatrine is known to do.



Actually Equilibrant is a combination of herbs that includes oxymatrine (Sophros extract).
Oxymatrine is the primary active ingredient, the other ingredients just provide a slight improvement, as verified by the fact Dr Chia says Equilibrant has a slightly higher ME/CFS treatment success rate than oxymatrine alone.

White Tiger oxymatrine also contains other ingredients, including matrine.

The only pure oxymatrine brand is AMS.
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 5
Messages
910
Likes
949
Location
Eastern NC USA
I don't know any ME/CFS researcher or clinician who has ever talked or published on the need to stimulate apoptosis.

What they usually talk about is stimulating the Th1 antiviral immune response, which oxymatrine is known to do.





Oxymatrine is the primary active ingredient, the other ingredients just provide a slight improvement, as verified by the fact Dr Chia says Equilibrant has a slightly higher ME/CFS treatment success rate than oxymatrine alone.

White Tiger oxymatrine also contains other ingredients, including matrine.

The only pure oxymatrine brand is AMS.
It looks like Chia got his idea to use oxymatrine and astalagus from Traditional Chinese Medicine.

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/coxsackie.htm

I'm surprised that Chia's goals is only to stimulate the Th1 antiviral response given that oxymatrine increases BAX apoptosis (while also suppressing caspase 3 apoptosis) and that he only has a 30% success rate with the need to stay on the supplement. Th1 is an early response to acute infections. It works fine for acute but when the virus becomes entrenched and especially if the virus becomes chronic, in the case of multiple chronic viruses then the amount of inflammation overwhelms the system and causes excessive immune attack. That's how covid kills through cytokine induced lung inflammation. Given that chronic viruses evolved numerous ways to block apoptosis it makes more sense to me to target that instead and it has been successful as immunotherapy for cancer. However, even with that given the large amounts of virally infected cells I suspect that it can systemic lupus erythematosis if Gcmaf therapy is done for too long a period, as what happened in my case when I did it for the six month recommended duration that Goelic's manifacturer recommended.

Anyway, if Chia is only targeting Th1 and following Chinese medicine then it makes sense why he wouldn't think about apoptosis and why his formula would be formulated this way.
 
Last edited:

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
14,692
Likes
28,864
It looks like Chia got his idea to use oxymatrine and astalagus from Traditional Chinese Medicine.
Undoubtedly. I even tried Sophora root myself (it contains 2% oxymatrine), years before Dr Chia started using it, because I read this herb was used for coxsackievirus B in China. And in China oxymatrine is used for hepatitis B virus infection, quite effectively.



I wonder whether apoptosis is a desirable route to promote in enterovirus ME/CFS. The chronic non-cytolytic intracellular enterovirus infections just involve very small amounts of enteroviral RNA living in cells, and this RNA replicates very slowly. A large number of cells are infected, but each with a very small amount of enterovirus RNA. So if you promoted apoptosis, there might be large amounts of cell death.

Cells have other ways of ridding themselves of this viral RNA, such as the RNase L enzyme (which interferon releases) that destroys single-stranded RNA. And the dicer enzyme which destroys double-stranded RNA.

But for some reason, in ME/CFS the immune system struggles to clear this viral RNA from cells, even though there are only low levels of the RNA within cells.

There is a new idea from Lévêque et al to explain why the immune system struggles to clear enterovirus RNA. Briefly detailed in this post.
 

gbells

Improved ME from 2 to 5
Messages
910
Likes
949
Location
Eastern NC USA
Undoubtedly. I even tried Sophora root myself (it contains 2% oxymatrine), years before Dr Chia started using it, because I read this herb was used for coxsackievirus B in China. And in China oxymatrine is used for hepatitis B virus infection, quite effectively.



I wonder whether apoptosis is a desirable route to promote in enterovirus ME/CFS. The chronic non-cytolytic intracellular enterovirus infections just involve very small amounts of enteroviral RNA living in cells, and this RNA replicates very slowly. A large number of cells are infected, but each with a very small amount of enterovirus RNA. So if you promoted apoptosis, there might be large amounts of cell death.

Cells have other ways of ridding themselves of this viral RNA, such as the RNase L enzyme (which interferon releases) that destroys single-stranded RNA. And the dicer enzyme which destroys double-stranded RNA.

But for some reason, in ME/CFS the immune system struggles to clear this viral RNA from cells, even though there are only low levels of the RNA within cells.

There is a new idea from Lévêque et al to explain why the immune system struggles to clear enterovirus RNA. Briefly detailed in this post.
I hear your concerns about apoptosis. If it were just enterovirus I would say you have a point however since many ME patients have dual DNA virus infections (HHV6, EBV, VZV) the only way to get rid of them without a working gene splicing treatment is to use apoptosis. Luckily Lerner says these infections are non-reproducing so hopefully the amount of infected cells apoptosing won't be so much that we have massive tissue damage and permanent disability or death. However, given how desperate we are for a cure and how poor our quality of life is, death doesn't really phase me that much personally. Anyway, I'm happy to be a guinea pig and will let you guys know how it goes. Also, there are limitations to how fast apoptosis can run. Supplements and antibodies have to apoptose layer by layer and it is very painful (you are literally burning away tissue from inside cells using free radicals) so there is an incentive not to overdo it and you can always decrease or take a break from the program.

Personally, I know I am positive for HHV6, EBV, coxsackie virus B5,6 and VZV and this already predisposes me to get cancer (which along with suicide are the two most common causes of death from ME). Also, I have ECG changes (ST segment elevation. left atrial enlargment) and pericarditis that I treat with colchicine daily. Heart changes can be seen on ECG. So it will be interesting to see what apoptosing the infected tissue will do to my heart and systemic lupus erythematosis. Who knows, maybe it will eliminate the source of the SLE antibodies and fix the pericarditis. Nothing ventured nothing gained. If I see problems worsening too much I'll re-evaluate.

However, so far I've been doing my current apoptosis regimen for several months without addressing coxsackie and I've been tolerating it without much ado, no heart failure/transplant, in fact my depression and anxiety have significantly decreased in severity, frequency and duration so I know it must be decreasing the HHV6 Sith1 protein so HHV6 viral load should be dropping. The question is whether adding specific supplements for coxsackie virus apoptosis blocks will enhance the process (shorten duration of treatment, improve outcome) or if it won't matter and will just be extra cost and effort because the current regimen is effective enough.

Also, if I will get cancer anyway from the viruses then I'll need to remove that tissue anyway so it is probably better to remove it with apoptosis before the cancer starts than after it gets going and metastacizes (we ME patients never seem to get a break). Also, if medicine can't handle ME viruses then I don't have a lot of confidence it can do much for cancer + ME.
 
Last edited:

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
14,692
Likes
28,864
@Hip What's the current treatment recommendation for single coxsackie virus infection with no other coinfections?
Dr Chia is the only one I know who experiments with enterovirus treatments, and he uses oxymatrine (sometimes he adds inosine to boost this), Epivir (makes some modest improvements in some people) and tenofovir (can make some substantial improvements in those it helps). All of these are pretty cheap, and usually well-tolerated. Taking tenofovir requires regular kidney tests, but your doctor can do that.



The only way I could think of a person having that would be if their doctor had them on steriods while they caught it and before they could generate antibodies.
Yes, Dr Chia found being given corticosteroids during an acute infection is a disaster, it often leads to ME/CFS.

Chronic stress also weakens immunity by raising corticosteroid levels. There are several studies showing lots of people were hit with ME/CFS when they caught a viral infection after a period of chronic stress (eg, from divorce or bereavement).

In my case I caught my virus not long after a serious organophosphate pesticide exposure, and I wonder whether the organophosphates weakened my immunity. There are studies showing major organophosphate exposure substantially increases the risk of ME/CFS.