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Much worse after short course of Equilibrant

Hutan

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Just as an aside:
I was interested to see the mention of Sophora. In New Zealand we have kowhai, 8 species of trees and shrubs in the Sophora genus. Traditionally the plants were used in medicine, typically infusions for wounds, skin infections and excema. A kowhai infusion was the remedy for seal bite (equivalent to a dog bite I guess). No parts of the plant are eaten as they are poisonous.

Sophora species have been traditionally used for medicine in South America too.
 

flitza

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Dr Chia often finds that those who improve on oxymatrine get worse before they get better. It seems for some you have to go through the storm before you get to the calm of better health on the other side.

Getting worse means ME/CFS symptoms like fatigue, myalgia and headache intensify, and flu-like symptoms and fever symptoms may appear after around a month or so on oxymatrine.

My understanding is that typically, when the fever symptoms kick in (which is normally after a month or two on oxymatrine), it often then just takes 4 or 5 days before the fever clears up, and that's when you will have passed through the storm, and should hopefully be feeling much better. The fever period is probably when the oxymatrine is working hardest to clear viruses from your body.

Dr Chia found that if you are a responder to oxymatrine, you may need go through the storm to get to the calm of better health on the other side. And after passing through the storm, Dr Chia found that you may have to keep taking the oxymatrine in order to maintain your gains. If you stop taking oxymatrine at that point, then your ME/CFS symptoms may return. That has been Dr Chia's experience.

However, if you did stop taking it and got worse again, in most cases (but not all), Dr Chia found that starting a second course of oxymatrine again led to an improvement in symptoms. But in some cases, you don't get a second chance (ie, the oxymatrine does not work the second time).

If you are a responder to oxymatrine, just how long you should keep taking I do not know, but I would guess at least 2 years. You'd have to make an appointment with Dr Chia to find out more about this.



With enterovirus treatments such as oxymatrine, you may have fought off most of the virus and your ME/CFS may have much improved or gone into remission. But the virus may not be fully eliminated, and may still exist in small pockets of your body. So when you stop the treatment, the enterovirus infection can grow back again from those small pockets.

Dr Chia found this even with his interferon treatments for enterovirus: lots of his ME/CFS patients responded well to interferon, and went into full remission from ME/CFS, along with a drop in their viral titers. But then some months down the line, they all relapsed back into ME/CFS, and their viral titers went up again.

This indicates that even if you clear most of the enterovirus from the body, such that your ME/CFS symptoms have largely disappeared, the virus can claw its way back if you drop your guard, so to speak. Dropping your guard means stopping oxymatrine too early.

Note that Dr Chia says oxymatrine is not recommended for people with autoimmune tendencies or seizure disorders.



Incidentally, Dr Chia found that his Equilibrant formulation of oxymatrine (which contains other immunomodulatory herbs such as astragalus) has stronger effects that just regular oxymatrine. So given the strong reactions you have had to Equilibrant, you might be better off taking pure oxymatrine.

Sources for Oxymatrine

White Tiger brand oxymatrine tablets, containing 200 mg oxymatrine per tablet, can be found here: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules containing 300 mg of oxymatrine powder per capsule are available here: 1, 2, 3, 4.

Equilibrant (Dr Chia's brand) oxymatrine tablets are available here.

I did not respond to oxymatrine, but I have tried both the White Tiger brand and the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules. I found the latter was much better, because it pure oxymatrine, and does not cause dizziness side effects. The White Tiger brand contains both oxymatrine and matrine, and it is the matrine that causes dizziness. Matrine is also more toxic than oxymatrine, so may put more strain on the body.



For more info on oxymatrine, see: this post and this post.

See also these articles on Dr Chia's oxymatrine treatment:
Dr. Chia On Oxymatrine, Autoimmunity, ME/CFS and FM
Oxymatrine
Summary of 4th appointment with Dr. C


Dr Chia's patent on oxymatrine treatment: Patent US8198293 - Oxymatrine compositions and related methods for treating and preventing chronic infectious diseases. In this patent document, the section entitled "Oxymatrine Clinical Study" is worth a quick read. Some excerpts:
Don't know if I'm putting this reply in the right place. It's my first 'reply'. Really. Or bad fog. Oh well. Here goes. I've been on Equilibrant about 2 months now. When I first started, at a dose of a quarter of a tab (I'm VERY sensitive to stuff) I started having an increase in some baseline symptoms about 3 hours after each dose: increased hypothermia, sore throat and more myalgias than I'd had in years.

After a week or so the myalgias stopped occuring 3 hours after dosing and I increased. I noticed an almost immediate improvement in my IBS symptoms. I am now up to 3/4 Tab a day. For the last week or so I've had a decrease in the sore throat and freezing, as well as what seems to be some decrease in the incidence of PEM. I've been waking up bathed in sweat in the early hours and my temperature has continued to be cool but not sooo cool. Then I was feeling warm all day and checked and it and it was 100.4°F. Even when I was 'well' I almost never developed a fever when ill. I have a slight sore throat, but less than what I was experiencing every evening before the Equilibrant.

I'm wondering if this elevated temperature represents 'turning the corner'.
 

nandixon

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@flitza, It could also be what's known as a "drug fever" reaction. A variety of different drugs can cause an elevated temperature in susceptible people. Antibiotics, for example, are prone to this. When it happens, it's a side effect of the drug and not related to the presence of any pathogen. It's not a common reaction, but not rare by any means. (It's sort of the opposite of the fever-reducing ability of acetaminophen, for example.)
 

JES

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@nandixon I doubt it was from that, because the fever according to Dr. Chia kicks in about a month after starting oxymatrine. I'd be more inclined to think it could be a random occurance from another infection that the patient acquired, but I presume he has observed this in several patients. There were some graphs from Dr Chia posted by @Hip showing this delayed fever response and how it's followed by improvement, but can't seem to find them now. In any case, it's very interesting and I would for sure not risk to stop the treatment if I managed to hit the fever phase (sadly I had no such luck myself with oxymatrine).
 

flitza

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When I first tried White Tiger oxymatrine several years ago (at a time when my ME/CFS was bordering on severe), oxymatrine quickly induced pretty significant depression in me, and so I was unable to take it for more than a few days (at that time, not just oxymatrine, but also other immunomodulators like inosine also rapidly caused depression — I speculate it might be due to inducing an interferon response, since interferon treatment is known to cause significant depression).

In more recent years, my ME/CFS has improved, and now I find that fortunately the depression side effect of oxymatrine and other immunomodulators is much less (but oxymatrine still causes some mild depression, and increased ME/CFS emotional sensitivity).

So I have been able to take up to 6 x 300 mg capsules a day of the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine for around 10 weeks; I felt a little more tired than usual, and with mild depression, but the depression was manageable. However, I did not notice any improvement in ME/CFS symptoms; but neither did I notice any worsening of ME/CFS symptoms, nor any fever or flu-like symptoms.

So I can't seem to get oxymatrine to work for me.



Another point of interest: earlier in the video at timecode 5:03 Dr Chia says that his son Andrew started on 6 pill of oxymatrine a day, and after two weeks he noticed no improvements, so went up to 9 pills a day. Six weeks later, he was fit enough to joint the gym.

That's interesting, because I only went up to 6 x 300 mg of oxymatrine. Perhaps I should have gone higher.
Did you ever try that?
Do you have an enterovirus?
 

Hip

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Did you ever try that?
Do you have an enterovirus?
No, I never did get around to trying that, but thanks for reminding me, I guess I should put that on my list of things to do. Maybe that extra dose of oxymatrine might make all the difference.

Yes, I have enterovirus: an active infection with coxsackievirus B4.
 

Dallase1

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No, I never did get around to trying that, but thanks for reminding me, I guess I should put that on my list of things to do. Maybe that extra dose of oxymatrine might make all the difference.

Yes, I have enterovirus: an active infection with coxsackievirus B4.
Hip,
Do you know which brand of equilibrant Chia’s son used? Which brand does Chia recommend to patients who can’t take the equilibrant?
 

Hip

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Do you know which brand of equilibrant Chia’s son used? Which brand does Chia recommend to patients who can’t take the equilibrant?
Equilibrant is a brand of oxymatrine. I don't know which type of oxymatrine Dr Chia's son used, nor which Dr Chia recommends.
 

Dallase1

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Equilibrant is a brand of oxymatrine. I don't know which type of oxymatrine Dr Chia's son used, nor which Dr Chia recommends.
I’m really curious about this inosine. My Uric Acid levels are really low and I’ve read this can be bad. One of the things to raise it is inosine. I’ve ready one poster where a lady took 4 a day one week, and six a day the next with weekends off. Is there any proof this has helped people?
 

Dallase1

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Equilibrant is a brand of oxymatrine. I don't know which type of oxymatrine Dr Chia's son used, nor which Dr Chia recommends.
Just got back my viral results from my stomach biopsy which came back positive for enteroviruses . Over 50% of Cells were infected. I am guessing I should try the Oxymatrine before my appointment with him. How many capsules of the Alternative Medicine Solutions did you use?
 

Hip

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How many capsules of the Alternative Medicine Solutions did you use?
Dr Chia's dosing is to work up to 6 capsules of oxymatrine a day if tolerated, but titrated up slowly over some weeks. I suggest reading some of the threads on this forum about oxymatrine.
 
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Dallase1

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Dr Chia's dosing is to work up to 6 capsules of oxymatrine a day if tolerated, but titrate up slowly over some weeks. I suggest reading some of the threads on this forum about oxymatrine.
Ok. I’m going to take alternative med solutions. My stomach biopsy showed a “strong presence of enterovirus infection”. I’m pretty concerned. You mentioned doing the DHQ. Did it help you?
 

flitza

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Just got back my viral results from my stomach biopsy which came back positive for enteroviruses . Over 50% of Cells were infected. I am guessing I should try the Oxymatrine before my appointment with him. How many capsules of the Alternative Medicine Solutions did you use?
Just to mention: Dr. Chia does not recommend going so high or starting high for a subset of patients. I was one where he started me on like 1/8 of a tablet and slowly increased every two weeks. Now 1 1/2 years I take 3 tablets a day.
 

Hip

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Just to mention: Dr. Chia does not recommend going so high or starting high for a subset of patients. I was one where he started me on like 1/8 of a tablet and slowly increased every two weeks. Now 1 1/2 years I take 3 tablets a day.
Interesting. Would you know how Dr Chia identifies the subset who should start on low doses? Is it simply patients who have significant side effects when they start on normal doses?
 

flitza

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I don't know how he identifies them but he does it prior to prescribing the amount to be taken. He started me on 1/4 tab each day from the get go. Also said something suggestive of this group not ever going higher than 2-3 tablets each day. I have seen this mentioned elsewhere but can't remember where.
 

Dallase1

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Just to mention: Dr. Chia does not recommend going so high or starting high for a subset of patients. I was one where he started me on like 1/8 of a tablet and slowly increased every two weeks. Now 1 1/2 years I take 3 tablets a day.
Did it help you at all? Did he ever recommend the pure Oxymatrine? I’m just concerned with all the extra herbs in his product. I would rather just take the Oxymatrine.