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Much worse after short course of Equilibrant

flitza

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It definitely helped me! I got sicker for a few weeks, my symptoms of sore throat, fatigue, inability to maintain a normal temperature, headache all worsened. Then I developed a low grade fever and started improving. I have continued to improve. My feeling about the other herbs in the Equilibrant were that if Dr. Chia added them he would have a good reason. But your decision on Equilibrant or Oxymatrine is yours alone.
 

Dallase1

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It definitely helped me! I got sicker for a few weeks, my symptoms of sore throat, fatigue, inability to maintain a normal temperature, headache all worsened. Then I developed a low grade fever and started improving. I have continued to improve. My feeling about the other herbs in the Equilibrant were that if Dr. Chia added them he would have a good reason. But your decision on Equilibrant or Oxymatrine is yours alone.
I just know the liquorice has raised my liver enzymes in the past so I really can’t take that. Do you know if he has an option for those people to take the pure Oxymatrine? Did he say how long it would take to start feeling better?
 

flitza

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He probably does have an option for people who want or need to take Oxymatrine, but I really never discussed it with him since the Equilibrant was not problematic for me. It doesn't work for everyone. I believe he did say one feels worse before better and I read more about people's experiences with that here somewhere on PR.
 

Dallase1

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He probably does have an option for people who want or need to take Oxymatrine, but I really never discussed it with him since the Equilibrant was not problematic for me. It doesn't work for everyone. I believe he did say one feels worse before better and I read more about people's experiences with that here somewhere on PR.
Did you try any inosine with it? How high were your viruses?
 

flitza

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No. He did not prescribe or recommend inosine for me.
Sorry don't recall my titers at the moment, just that they weren't astronomically high- maybe 4x... But definitely positive.
 

Dallase1

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No. He did not prescribe or recommend inosine for me.
Sorry don't recall my titers at the moment, just that they weren't astronomically high- maybe 4x... But definitely positive.
I see. What symptoms were improved with the equilibrant?
 

flitza

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Less flu-like symptoms, less crashes that also don't last as long, temperature regulation better, not gaining weight while eating nothing, fog better... LDN has helped too.
 

Dallase1

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Less flu-like symptoms, less crashes that also don't last as long, temperature regulation better, not gaining weight while eating nothing, fog better... LDN has helped too.
I’m considering LDN as well. What did it help you with? Did you do it before or after the Oxymatrine?
 

flitza

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Started it after the Equilibrant. LDN also helped with crashes being less frequent and less lasting. Also with my IBS to some extent. Pain from FM and plantar fasciitis 80%+ better after first dose. Irritable bladder symptoms as well. Neuropsych stuff: Better impetus, less OCD symptoms and improved sleep quality.
 

Dallase1

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Started it after the Equilibrant. LDN also helped with crashes being less frequent and less lasting. Also with my IBS to some extent. Pain from FM and plantar fasciitis 80%+ better after first dose. Irritable bladder symptoms as well. Neuropsych stuff: Better impetus, less OCD symptoms and improved sleep quality.
That’s interesting. So how long did it take for the equilibrant to make you feel better? Did Dr. Chia say your Chlamydia Pneumoniae was important?
 

flitza

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About 3 weeks until I started to turn the corner. Gradual improvement thereafter. I do not have Chlamydia Pneumonia...
 

godlovesatrier

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I know this is an old thread. But I recently read an article by an llmd treating lyme who said that administering anti bacterial or anti biotics consistently with worsening herx like symptoms would cause the patient to become sicker. He advised that when the herx builds to a crippling point you are actually doing more damage by continuing. This is contrary to modern thinking in that if you stop anti bacterials at any point especially anti biotics you loose your grip on recovery at a potentially exponential rate. He advised backing off for a day or two and then restarting at a lower dose until a starting dose is found and then consistently taking that week on week before ramping up and keeping a close eye on symptoms.

However you mention above that oxymatrine caused you to feel infinitely worse after your dosing and I wonder whether this damage analogy the llmd talked about could be the reason. I know of so many people diagnosed with Lyme who've taken anti biotics at full tilt only to end up in a&e or bed bound instead of housebound.

It's got me thinking how vital and incredibly difficult it is to assess the bell curve and dose just right every day for the body to expel dead cellular matter at the right rate.

I recently had this taking 1g of andrographis from a much fresher supplier in China. Which can kill some entereoviruses I've read. The herx was very debilitating taking me from almost symptom free to full blown. I took 3 adaptogens and drank 3 litres to get out of the herx and I also lowered my dose the next day to 650mg. 48 hours after the initial dose my body is coming out of it with fewer symptoms. But i think it will take a week to recover. So I wonder if the same logic is applicable to oxy. I will be trying it to find out.
 

Wayne

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He advised that when the herx builds to a crippling point you are actually doing more damage by continuing.
I concur with this thinking 100%. I remember when a Lyme documentary came out a few years ago, the young woman was on abx, and reached the point of having seizures as a result of the dieoff. She perservered, and eventually came out of it, but it seemed counterproductive to proceed as she was without making appropriate adjustments.

I have a "beef" with some of the Lyme abx therapies. Not that I'm against abx (though I don't think I'm a good candidate to use them), but as far as I know, the regimens don't included ongoing detoxification support, such as coffee enemas, bentonite clay or charcoal supplements, and more. These detoxification aids are commonplace in alternative cancer clinics, which were initiated after a number of cancer patients died as a result of the cancer dieing off too quickly, and the body couldn't handle it.

P.S. My latest detoxification aid is sodium thiosulfate
 

godlovesatrier

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I must admit if I chat to any lymies who are treating they will go on about detox - because it is so important. One thing I don't think anyone takes into account is how sick patients are. If they are bed bound, even 1 drop of a anti viral or anti bacterial tincture can make them feel terrible and load up there body with dead cellular matter. I still don't understand why many herbalists I've spoken to don't seem to realise this and then recommend a huge regime to a patient who can barely get out of bed. It's a recipe for disaster.
 

Wayne

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I still don't understand why many herbalists I've spoken to don't seem to realise this and then recommend a huge regime to a patient who can barely get out of bed. It's a recipe for disaster.
Agree! -- I read an account a few years ago of a man who underwent a Lyme dieoff protocol, and the detox was way more than he could handle, and so--wisely--he quit. He later learned he was deficient in iodine, and when he started his Lyme protcol again after supplementing with iodine, he was not overwhelmed like he had been earlier.
 

godlovesatrier

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Yes defiencies are a whole other area. I only recently got on top of mine (although for all I know I may not have but I feel better on a bio available multi vitamin and I've felt better on liquid magnesium for months). Also taking one of anything but it BCAA or vitamin B for example, has in my experience always caused the same symptoms as a herx reaction. I found one study that showed that a balanced amount of amino acids is required in order to treat depression/anxiety etc. In my eyes many of the adaptogens are packed full of balanced BCAA's and I wonder whether it is harder for a healthier ME patient to crash when taking these particular herbs, primarily the mushrooms.

At any rate, die off, herxing and detox are all not that well understood. I was just thinking how great it would be if there was a finger prick test that could show damaged celluar matter in the blood stream so a person could compare both before and after taking a new herb whether it appears to be working or just a chemical reaction in the body due to the impurities of the plant.