Molybdenum and Transsulfuration Pathway

[Freddd]

Hi, minniemom2011.

Here's what I suggest is going on: You have sulfate-reducing bacteria in your gut. When you take molybdenum, you convert sulfite to sulfate more rapidly, raising the sulfate concentration in your blood, some of which is transported into the gut. When you bathe in Epsom salt, which is magnesium sulfate, you also raise the sulfate level in your blood and thence in the gut.

The sulfate-reducing bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide. If this is produced at a high enough rate, it overcomes the capacity of the sulfide oxidase enzyme in the cells lining the gut, and thus is able to enter the bloodstream. Hydrogen sulfide is toxic at high enough levels, and I suggest that that is what is producing your symptoms. Marian Lemle and Dr. Kenny de Meirleir have done a lot of work on hydrogen sulfide in connection with ME/CFS. Protea Pharma lab offers a urine test for hydrogen sulfide. The human metabolism itself does not have the ability to chemically reduce sulfate, but sulfate-reducing bacteria in the gut do have this capacity. If you are able to run a comprehensive stool analysis, such as the Diagnos-techs Expanded G.I. panel or the other ones offered by Genova Diagnostic, Metametrix or Doctor's Data, you could probably identify the bacteria that are responsible, and perhaps target them with a specific (not broad-spectrum) antibiotic, alternated with probiotics to shift your intestinal flora to a more healthy community.

Best regards,

Rich

Hi Rich,

For years in the early 90s when I was really sick I had a Samadhi floatation tank. I would spend hours each night floating in 93.5 degree 1.25 density epsom salt solution. Have you any speculation about how that might have affected me? It was often the only rest I got as I had terrible trouble sleeping with all the pain and so on.

 

[richvank]

Hi Rich,

For years in the early 90s when I was really sick I had a Samadhi floatation tank. I would spend hours each night floating in 93.5 degree 1.25 density epsom salt solution. Have you any speculation about how that might have affected me? It was often the only rest I got as I had terrible trouble sleeping with all the pain and so on.

Hi, Freddd.

Well, first off, if it helped you and didn't make you feel worse, I would say that you did not have significant populations of sulfate-reducing bacteria in your gut. Epsom salt is magnesium sulfate. For people who don't have these bacteria, I think that Epsom salt baths can be helpful. Both the magnesium, which can soothe muscle pain, and the the sulfate, which can help with joint pain by helping to maintain water in the cartilage of the joints, can be helpful. In ME/CFS, there is depletion of intracellular magnesium which is associated with the glutathione depletion, and there can also be depletion of sulfate because of the disruption of the sulfur metabolism. So maybe that explains why it helped you.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[xrayspex]

too funny, I have molybdenum tincture that I take a teeny bit of most days....I thought long ago Rich you posted at pH or experimental that its good for MCS flares? I have mcs....but also dysbiosis per gut test at diagnos-techs....so I think I will stop the molybedenum. this stuff is fascinating and so complex....something we think is helpful one year we find out later isn't.....I think around same time read that selenium good for mcs too? you know how it is, read something is good for you at one point and start it and 6 years later not sure what it was ya read that made you start it.....ai yai, I keep trying to figure out an organizational system to document why I do what I do but its hard!

 

[rydra_wong]

too funny, I have molybdenum tincture that I take a teeny bit of most days....I thought long ago Rich you posted at pH or experimental that its good for MCS flares? I have mcs....but also dysbiosis per gut test at diagnos-techs....so I think I will stop the molybedenum. this stuff is fascinating and so complex....something we think is helpful one year we find out later isn't.....I think around same time read that selenium good for mcs too? you know how it is, read something is good for you at one point and start it and 6 years later not sure what it was ya read that made you start it.....ai yai, I keep trying to figure out an organizational system to document why I do what I do but its hard!

Just a suggestion ... I do not make enough stomach acid so I looked for a product to kill pathogens since HCL is supposed to do that for you and I started taking Olive Leaf Extract 1g/day right away before I got any gut issues. It felt great - I could feel it relaxing all my blood vessels - Life Extension did a cover article on it this month quoting studies it lowers blood pressure 11.5 points (and I have high blood pressure). I understand that if you have low blood ressure you may be leery of this and I have no idea how it affects you if your bp is not elevated. However it does kill gut pathogens of all sorts and works very well in that regard. I recently tried doing w/o it and I could not! W/o it I could not live in my skin. (Especially I had neurological problems in the brain - which is also what happned to me some years ago when I found out WHEAT would do that to me - got tested for celiac and dont have it but do have one of those Ig's for wheat allergy. Anyway, I know gut issues can affect the brain from past experience). I added back the 1g olive leaf extract and immediately felt 30% better, and in 3 days that was 100% better. I highly recommend it but of course cannot say if it is really right for you. (I have 18 genetic defects - who knows if what I experience applies to anyone else)

Rydra

 

[Little Bluestem]

I have been doing tissue mineral hair testing. I recently got my Molybdenum up to normal from undetectable. I am having fewer gut issues. I have slowly added yogurt into my diet without any problem and will be moving on to stronger probiotics.

 

[rydra_wong]

I'm probably not saying this right because I really don't understand all the different pathways and their effect on the body, but I'm wondering if molybdenum can have a negative effect on the transsulfuration pathway and cause someone to become more sulfur sensitive.

I had always read that molybdenum was supposed to HELP with sulfur sensitivity by ridding the body of excess sulfur/sulfites/whatever! I started taking it a few weeks ago and ever since then have been getting nauseous several times a day. I am also finding myself getting extremely nauseous after taking Epsom salt baths. This used to happen to me when I first started the baths, but within a few days they ended up making me feel more relaxed and even energized. The only change I can think of that would effect any of this is the molybdenum.

I've tried to stop taking it for a few days, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I'm terrified of becoming sulfur sensitive because I'm so limited already with foods that I can eat and the only veggies I can tolerate are all high sulfur - broccoli, peas, and green beans!

Any ideas on what's happening or how I can figure this out for sure? I have no idea where to turn. I'm trying to research it all, but my brain just does not function anymore. I can read all day, but I just can't COMPREHEND anything! Thanks so much for any help or insight!

ETA: I should add that something I find very strange is that the nausea usually goes away if I eat something. Sometimes I have to force food down because of the nausea, but once I get something in me I usually feel better, so maybe it isn't a sulfur thing . . . I just don't know!

Why are you taking molybenum? I know it is needed in the methyl cycle but if you are not SHORT of it, you do not want more as it WILL impede copper absorption and cause neuropathy! It is very well known among ranchers that cows put to pasture in molybdenum soils get swayback due to copper depletion. Copper is needed for methionine synthase enzyme. My hair analysis showed I am high in molybdenum and I could never tolerate an epsom salt bath for more than 10 minutes. I have a bazillion emails to go through but somewhere in there is the website of a cheap lab $100 to get a Traceelements hair analysis. That is th eway to find out your trace element status including molybdenum.

fyi, although I cannot tolerate epsom salt baths I am not sulfur intolerant. I think it is mostly people with the SUOX genetic defect who are.

 

[rydra_wong]

Hi, minniemom2011.

Here's what I suggest is going on: You have sulfate-reducing bacteria in your gut. When you take molybdenum, you convert sulfite to sulfate more rapidly, raising the sulfate concentration in your blood, some of which is transported into the gut. When you bathe in Epsom salt, which is magnesium sulfate, you also raise the sulfate level in your blood and thence in the gut.

etc
Best regards,

Rich

That could be it. Interesting. But also. molybdenum is a rare trace mineral and they could be over-supplementing. I eat lots of sulfur foods with no problem but I also cant tolerate epsom salts. To me it just feels irritating like super-prune feeling. It turns my skin wrinkly like I've been in chlorinated water waaaay too long. I am high normal in molybdenum. molybdenum blocks copper absorption and causes neuropathy at too high a dose. I'd want to be real careful with that. I also tested by the same hair analysis to be low normal on copper. I never figured out what I was eating to raise my molybdenum levels.

The problems that molybdenum causes to the methyl cycle has nothing to do with P5P. I proved for myself with homocysteine tests that tking more P5P does not cause more drainage of homocysteine if you are taking TMG anyway, because the TMG cycling path is faster than the P5P drainage path.
Rydra

 

[rydra_wong]

What kind of bacteria could be causing this? I have h.pylori, is that a susepct for H sulife production?

And knowing the name is going to help you how-? I take 1g/day Olive Leaf Extract to kill all gut pathogens...it is part of what I took to kill h pylori when I had ulcers. I also took Oil of Oregano at that time. Olive Leaf Extract lowers blood pressure significantly so not sure everyone can take it. But if you can it's a great thing.

Rydra

 

[Lotus97]

I think this is because your methyltion cycle is starting to work. If so more sulfur intermediates will drain down the transsulfuration pathway. In my case I experienced this too when I started to get better my sulfur intolerance increased. So dont worry about that but stop the epsom salt and limit sulfur rich foods. more sulfate also means more detox of the cells so this can be an additional factor. Molybdenum can so cause detox by generating more sulfate so increase only slightly or decrease slightly if it is too much for your body.

So molybdenum is causing a detox reaction? It seems like detoxing can be a double-edged sword. I'll try taking less molybdenum and sulfur rich foods. I suppose that also means Taurine and MSM.

Also, if methylation is causing detox symptoms does that mean I need to back off on methylation. It seems like a lot of my supplements could be potentially making me worse, but I'm kind of scared about stopping my supplements also.

 

[Misfit Toy]

How can anyone figure this out? It's too complicated. It's like trying to put jello back together after its been split up.

 

[Lotus97]

How can anyone figure this out? It's too complicated. It's like trying to put jello back together after its been split up.

I'm struggling with the same issue. Trial and error I guess. Even if you can afford all the tests some of the people here are getting (I can't), it still seems like a long road. I had my SNPs tested recently because I thought it would be useful, but then I found out from Rich that SNPs weren't always a good indicator of how a person would respond to methylation. I hope he's at least partially wrong (since I already payed for the test...)

Getting a lot of sleep and limiting activities and sources of stress has helped me more than all the other treatments I've tried. It's not that the other treatments don't help, it's just that my body needs a chance to heal. And rest seems like the best way I've found.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Lotus97, what are SNP's? See, I feel like this is too complicated. IT's too much work and it makes me anxious. It's just guessing in a sense as to what might be doing what. There is no consistency. I am not saying it doesn't work, but it's a mind bender. Take this and it might do that, do this and this may happen. It's one thing to take a medicine and have it go wrong, but this protocol requires you to be on a lot of stuff. You can't always know what is doing what. I can get sick by doing nothing, or by doing something.

There is too much variation and especially with people like myself who have MCS and all kinds of allergies. I have a feeling that I will pay all of this money and then just quit because the whole thing is making me anxious. You really need someone to work with you consistently. My friend hired Rich back in 2006. She was so confused and she was on so much, she gave up.

 

[npeden]

Hi Minniemom,

I'm curious as to where you read that plant-based enzymes are high in sulfur? Could you provide a link or more info?

Also, which plant-based enzyme product were you taking?

Thanks,

Dan

p.s. The reason I ask is because several groups recommend plant based enzymes like No-Fenol and Peptizyde, etc., in order to help with sulfation/phenol/salicylate and also gluten and casein issues.

Dan, vegies are full of sulfur. Here is a link to the low sulfur ones. I am on a low sulfur diet as I take a lot NAC to over ride my candida and provide some glutathione.It is not easy to follow but I drink two alkalanizing green smoothies for two meals so it means I only have to worry about dinner for low sulfur. I eat a lot of squash. Here is the list of low sulfur foods: http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chel...ulfur-sulphur-food-list/low-sulfur-food-list/

np

 

[dave.1]

Dear,

I know it has been many years ago, but because I am having the save problems, I would lik to askif you have ever fixed your issues with taking Molybdenum ?

Thanks a lot,
Dave

 

[dave.1]

Dear,

I know it has been many years ago, but because I am having the save problems, I would lik to askif you have ever fixed your issues with taking Molybdenum ?

Thanks a lot,
Dave

 

[jason30]

I also have trouble with tolerating molybdenum.

I have heavy metals toxicity and found this:

Molybdate (ion of molybdenum) through inhibition of sulfate-reducing bacteria inhibits mercury methylation.
The inhibition of mercury methylation is due to the inhibition of sulfate-reducing bacteria, which are responsible for Hg methylation.
http://www.imoa.info/HSE/environmental_data/biology/sulfur_metabolism.php

This means that we get even more problems with processing heavy metals due the inhibition of the mercury methylation when you take Molybdenum?

 

[renski]

@jason30 did you resolve your molybdenum issues? I can tolerate it in a mineral complex but not on its own. My understanding is the sulfate reducing bacteria are there due to a lack of sulfate in the body, so taking molybdenum (if deficient?) should raise sulfate and reduce the number of sulfate reducing bacteria? But your saying it can inhibit methylation of mercury

 

[jason30]

@jason30 did you resolve your molybdenum issues? I can tolerate it in a mineral complex but not on its own. My understanding is the sulfate reducing bacteria are there due to a lack of sulfate in the body, so taking molybdenum (if deficient?) should raise sulfate and reduce the number of sulfate reducing bacteria? But your saying it can inhibit methylation of mercury

Unfortunately not.
Rich said earlier here on PR: "that the sulfate-reducing bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide. If this is produced at a high enough rate, it overcomes the capacity of the sulfide oxidase enzyme in the cells lining the gut, and thus is able to enter the bloodstream. Hydrogen sulfide is toxic at high enough levels, and this can produce the symptoms. "

Apart from that, the increase in uric acid can be the cause of the symptoms as well. I am gonna test molyb with taurine to see if that helps (taurine lowers uric acid). Someone else on PR (sorry, forgot the name) mentioned that magnesium oxide helps on this matter as well.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Someone else on PR (sorry, forgot the name) mentioned that magnesium oxide helps on this matter as well.

It was me. I stopped tolerating magnesium.
Anything that you tolerate that will counterbalance (alkalize) the effects of high uric acid will work. I used to take baths with sodium bicarbonate added to the bath water. Stopped tolerating it as well since I get inflammation from high sodium (poor adrenal function).

 

[jason30]

It was me. I stopped tolerating magnesium.
Anything that you tolerate that will counterbalance (alkalize) the effects of high uric acid will work. I used to take baths with sodium bicarbonate added to the bath water. Stopped tolerating it as well since I get inflammation from high sodium (poor adrenal function).

Ah yes, how could I forgot your name!
Too bad you can't take those anymore, did you stopped taking molybdenum?

Are there more methods to counterbalance the effects of uric acid besides mag and sodium bicorbinate that you know?