Molybdenum and Transsulfuration Pathway

[minniemom2011]

I'm probably not saying this right because I really don't understand all the different pathways and their effect on the body, but I'm wondering if molybdenum can have a negative effect on the transsulfuration pathway and cause someone to become more sulfur sensitive.

I had always read that molybdenum was supposed to HELP with sulfur sensitivity by ridding the body of excess sulfur/sulfites/whatever! I started taking it a few weeks ago and ever since then have been getting nauseous several times a day. I am also finding myself getting extremely nauseous after taking Epsom salt baths. This used to happen to me when I first started the baths, but within a few days they ended up making me feel more relaxed and even energized. The only change I can think of that would effect any of this is the molybdenum.

I've tried to stop taking it for a few days, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I'm terrified of becoming sulfur sensitive because I'm so limited already with foods that I can eat and the only veggies I can tolerate are all high sulfur - broccoli, peas, and green beans!

Any ideas on what's happening or how I can figure this out for sure? I have no idea where to turn. I'm trying to research it all, but my brain just does not function anymore. I can read all day, but I just can't COMPREHEND anything! Thanks so much for any help or insight!

ETA: I should add that something I find very strange is that the nausea usually goes away if I eat something. Sometimes I have to force food down because of the nausea, but once I get something in me I usually feel better, so maybe it isn't a sulfur thing . . . I just don't know!

 

[justy]

Hi, i also find that if i eat something the nausea and stomach pain subsides. Strangely a bigger meal as opposed to a snack also helps me. This is something i have been thinking a lot abnout lately so it interesting you should mention it. My stomach pain and nausea have been driving me nuts lately, yet i still have to keep eating to keep it at bay ( no chance of losing that excess weight then!
Sorry i dont have any answers to your question, i hope someone else can help.x

 

[Joopiter76]

I think this is because your methyltion cycle is starting to work. If so more sulfur intermediates will drain down the transsulfuration pathway. In my case I experienced this too when I started to get better my sulfur intolerance increased. So dont worry about that but stop the epsom salt and limit sulfur rich foods. more sulfate also means more detox of the cells so this can be an additional factor. Molybdenum can so cause detox by generating more sulfate so increase only slightly or decrease slightly if it is too much for your body.

 

[minniemom2011]

I think this is because your methyltion cycle is starting to work. If so more sulfur intermediates will drain down the transsulfuration pathway. In my case I experienced this too when I started to get better my sulfur intolerance increased. So dont worry about that but stop the epsom salt and limit sulfur rich foods. more sulfate also means more detox of the cells so this can be an additional factor. Molybdenum can so cause detox by generating more sulfate so increase only slightly or decrease slightly if it is too much for your body.

Thanks Joopiter. It's very reassuring to hear that your sulfur intolerance increased when you were getting BETTER! Hopefully something similar is happening with me. Just curious - do you have any idea about how long it took for you to build up your tolerance to sulfur again?

It's difficult for me to cut back on sulfur foods because the only veggies I can tolerate are high sulfur, but I'm going to try to either take 1/2 molybdenum every day or maybe take it every other day and stop the epsom salt baths for a while.

 

[Joopiter76]

If you look here: http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm you will find a really good explanation of the genomics as well as list of foods to avoid if sulfur sensitive and glutamate sensitive. I woul also lower meat and proteins as they use up your BH4 by ammonia detoxification. I think you should try it out some days. Remember that phenols and salycylates as well as oxalates may be a problem in CFS so I cant tolerate some kind of phenols e.g. cherries make me worse. They contain a kind of sulfo-phenols.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Molybd stimulated reactions here too.

I had to take a day off (yesterday) from molybdenum supplementation.
Started again today cautiously with 1/4 a 150mcg dose.

I've used molybdenum in the past - my hair test showed it to be very low - with no noticeable benefit or negative reaction.

This time I have all methylation support supplements on board first, and after upping molybdenum to 75mcg last week I became progressively more nauseous (day and night) and developed strange and intense food aversions. I say strange because I'm just not fussy about foods in general but by Monday I couldn't even bear to be in the same room as a cauliflower. I'm not kidding, it had to be put outside while I could decide it's fate. It was me or the cauli!

I feel that a lot of extra detox was stimulated by the addition of moly. It was the only change I made.

Headaches increased too, but these seem to have been helped a lot by charcoal supplementation at night.

 

[minniemom2011]

I had to take a day off (yesterday) from molybdenum supplementation.
Started again today cautiously with 1/4 a 150mcg dose.

I've used molybdenum in the past - my hair test showed it to be very low - with no noticeable benefit or negative reaction.

This time I have all methylation support supplements on board first, and after upping molybdenum to 75mcg last week I became progressively more nauseous (day and night) and developed strange and intense food aversions. I say strange because I'm just not fussy about foods in general but by Monday I couldn't even bear to be in the same room as a cauliflower. I'm not kidding, it had to be put outside while I could decide it's fate. It was me or the cauli!

I feel that a lot of extra detox was stimulated by the addition of moly. It was the only change I made.

Headaches increased too, but these seem to have been helped a lot by charcoal supplementation at night.

Anne,

That sounds a lot like what I've been experiencing. What's troubling to me though is that I stopped taking molybdenum for 4 days and am still having the nausea, headaches, stomach pain, and yes - the strong aversions to certain foods too. I've subsisted on soup for the last 4 months - every day I have broth w/ either chicken or beef and 1 of 3 veggies. I'm not fussy at all, but the broth has been totally turning my stomach.

After all the reading I've done - though I can't understand even 1/4 of it - I have to wonder if this is doing more damage and it's not just detox. For one thing, it seems like the molybdenum is making me intolerant to sulfur. Anyone know why that would be? I can't afford to lose sulfur foods!

I also recently started B6, though cut that out for now too, and I read that there is some connection between the B6, molybdenum, and sulfur - is anyone familiar with that?

So far today I haven't had any sulfur foods and the nausea and headaches have been very minimal. The stomach pains are still present though.

 

[minniemom2011]

Very strange, but I received a notice that Joopiter76 made a reply to this thread, but all it said was "Hi, you should be really careful with B6 because it"

the reply didn't have a full sentence and now I don't see it on this thread either! I wonder if it has something to do with the site moving?!?!

Anyway, why should I be careful with B6?

 

[richvank]

Hi, minniemom2011.

Here's what I suggest is going on: You have sulfate-reducing bacteria in your gut. When you take molybdenum, you convert sulfite to sulfate more rapidly, raising the sulfate concentration in your blood, some of which is transported into the gut. When you bathe in Epsom salt, which is magnesium sulfate, you also raise the sulfate level in your blood and thence in the gut.

The sulfate-reducing bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide. If this is produced at a high enough rate, it overcomes the capacity of the sulfide oxidase enzyme in the cells lining the gut, and thus is able to enter the bloodstream. Hydrogen sulfide is toxic at high enough levels, and I suggest that that is what is producing your symptoms. Marian Lemle and Dr. Kenny de Meirleir have done a lot of work on hydrogen sulfide in connection with ME/CFS. Protea Pharma lab offers a urine test for hydrogen sulfide. The human metabolism itself does not have the ability to chemically reduce sulfate, but sulfate-reducing bacteria in the gut do have this capacity. If you are able to run a comprehensive stool analysis, such as the Diagnos-techs Expanded G.I. panel or the other ones offered by Genova Diagnostic, Metametrix or Doctor's Data, you could probably identify the bacteria that are responsible, and perhaps target them with a specific (not broad-spectrum) antibiotic, alternated with probiotics to shift your intestinal flora to a more healthy community.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[lampkld2]

What kind of bacteria could be causing this? I have h.pylori, is that a susepct for H sulife production?

 

[minniemom2011]

Hi, minniemom2011.

Here's what I suggest is going on: You have sulfate-reducing bacteria in your gut. When you take molybdenum, you convert sulfite to sulfate more rapidly, raising the sulfate concentration in your blood, some of which is transported into the gut. When you bathe in Epsom salt, which is magnesium sulfate, you also raise the sulfate level in your blood and thence in the gut.

The sulfate-reducing bacteria produce hydrogen sulfide. If this is produced at a high enough rate, it overcomes the capacity of the sulfide oxidase enzyme in the cells lining the gut, and thus is able to enter the bloodstream. Hydrogen sulfide is toxic at high enough levels, and I suggest that that is what is producing your symptoms. Marian Lemle and Dr. Kenny de Meirleir have done a lot of work on hydrogen sulfide in connection with ME/CFS. Protea Pharma lab offers a urine test for hydrogen sulfide. The human metabolism itself does not have the ability to chemically reduce sulfate, but sulfate-reducing bacteria in the gut do have this capacity. If you are able to run a comprehensive stool analysis, such as the Diagnos-techs Expanded G.I. panel or the other ones offered by Genova Diagnostic, Metametrix or Doctor's Data, you could probably identify the bacteria that are responsible, and perhaps target them with a specific (not broad-spectrum) antibiotic, alternated with probiotics to shift your intestinal flora to a more healthy community.

Best regards,

Rich

Thanks so much for posting this Rich. It makes a lot of sense. Thinking back, I realize that around the time all of this started I also began taking some plant-based digestive enzymes which I have now learned are high sulfur.

Do you recommend any of the labs in particular for the stool test? I've thought about doing that test in the past, but have read quite a bit about them being inaccurate so was hesitant to spend the $$, but I think it's time to give it a try.

Also, I should have mentioned (brain fog is making me forget a lot) that I've had 6 amalgams out in the last 6-8 weeks as well. Do you think that could be playing a part in any of this?

Thanks again. I truly appreciate your time.

 

[dannybex]

Thanks so much for posting this Rich. It makes a lot of sense. Thinking back, I realize that around the time all of this started I also began taking some plant-based digestive enzymes which I have now learned are high sulfur.

Hi Minniemom,

I'm curious as to where you read that plant-based enzymes are high in sulfur? Could you provide a link or more info?

Also, which plant-based enzyme product were you taking?

Thanks,

Dan

p.s. The reason I ask is because several groups recommend plant based enzymes like No-Fenol and Peptizyde, etc., in order to help with sulfation/phenol/salicylate and also gluten and casein issues.

 

[Joopiter76]

I would suggest to take Theralac it is a really really good product. And I would suggest to take butyrate caps. It is very good for gut milieu and supports the tight junctions to reduce the gut permeability. this helped me a lot. And then reduce sulfur containing food, otherwise you will feed the bad bacteria.

there is a little problem with the stool test, and that is that this would not change anything. probably you are low in good bacteria and clostridia and so on are too high. correct the gut milieu and take good bacteria to make the life of the bad ones worse. it will take months to improve the gut if not years.

 

[Shellbell]

Minniemom2011, I had 6 amalgams out last year and was terribly sick for about 4 months following. I am glad they are out now, still have 2 more to remove, but it was brutal. I became more sensitive to foods, perfumes, etc. for a bit afterwards. So this could easily be the route of your problem that you are experiencing now.

Also another CFS friend of mine had 6 amalgams out last year as well. She was almost recovered when she did this and became quite ill afterwards. With some help of her doctor, he pulled her out of her crash in less than two months and has seen even more improvement in her health than before she had them out.

If this is the reason for your issues, it will get better. Hang in there.

Shelly

 

[lampkld2]

Are there any low sulfur protien sources? Flax protien maybe?

 

[richvank]

What kind of bacteria could be causing this? I have h.pylori, is that a susepct for H sulife production?

Hi, lampkld2.

Yes, H. pylori can produce hydrogen sulfide. See abstract below.

Best regards,

Rich

J Clin Gastroenterol. 2006 May-Jun;40(5):421-6.
Volatile sulfur compounds produced by Helicobacter pylori.

Lee H, Kho HS, Chung JW, Chung SC, Kim YK.

Department of Oral Medicine and Oral Diagnosis, School of Dentistry, Seoul National University, Korea.
Abstract

GOALS: To assess the volatile sulfur compounds produced by three strains of Helicobacter pylori in broth cultures mixed with sulfur-containing amino acids.

BACKGROUND: Halitosis has been reported in H. pylori-positive patients, and volatile sulfur compounds such as hydrogen sulfide and methyl mercaptan are known to be responsible for inducing oral malodor. Whether H. pylori produces these volatile sulfur compounds has yet to be established.

STUDY: Three strains of H. pylori (ATCC 43504, SS 1, DSM 4867) were cultured with 5 mM cysteine and methionine. After 72 hours of incubation, the headspace air was aspirated and injected directly into a gas chromatograph. The concentrations of hydrogen sulfide and methyl mercaptan were analyzed and compared between experimental and control cultures

RESULTS: In broth containing 5 mM cysteine, hydrogen sulfide was increased by ATCC 43504 (P < 0.01) and SS 1 (P < 0.05), while methyl mercaptan was elevated only by SS 1 (P < 0.05). In broth containing 5 mM methionine, methyl mercaptan increases were significant for SS 1 (P < 0.05) and DSM 4867 (P < 0.05). In broth containing 5 mM cysteine and 5 mM methionine, the concentration of hydrogen sulfide was higher than in controls for all three strains (P < 0.01); that of methyl mercaptan was higher only for SS 1 (P < 0.01). Cysteine addition to cultures containing methionine increased hydrogen sulfide and methyl mercaptan for ATCC 43504 (P < 0.05) and SS 1 (P < 0.05). Conversely, addition of methionine to cultures containing cysteine increased methyl mercaptan only for DSM 4867 (P < 0.01).

CONCLUSIONS: The production of volatile sulfur compounds by H. pylori is not only very complicated but also strain-specific. Nevertheless, H. pylori was shown to produce hydrogen sulfide and methyl mercaptan, which suggests that this microorganism can contribute to the development of halitosis.

PMID: 16721224 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[richvank]

Hi, minniemom2011.

I prefer the Diagnos-techs Expanded G.I. panel, because it includes more parameters than the others, and uses three stool samples and a saliva sample. It requires a doctor's order, though, while the others can be had without a doctor's order.

The Metametrix G.I. Function test offers the advantage that it is a DNA test and does not rely on culturing the bacteria, and that can be an advantage, because some bacteria do not survive in contact with air.

For those in Europe, I think that the stool test that Dr. de Meirleir offers is particularly good for detecting the anaerobic bacteria. In that test, an oxygen getter is put into a sealed container with the stool sample, so that the anaerobic bacteria will survive to be cultured in the lab.

Having amalgams removed can give a person a significant exposure to mercury vapor by inhalation, which can produce neurological symptoms. It helps to have an external air or oxygen supply during the procedure, but even so, there can be an exposure. I don't know of an interaction between molybdenum and mercury, though.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[minniemom2011]

Hi Minniemom,

I'm curious as to where you read that plant-based enzymes are high in sulfur? Could you provide a link or more info?

Also, which plant-based enzyme product were you taking?

Thanks,

Dan

p.s. The reason I ask is because several groups recommend plant based enzymes like No-Fenol and Peptizyde, etc., in order to help with sulfation/phenol/salicylate and also gluten and casein issues.

Hi Danny,

Sorry I did not see your question until now. I was taking Digest Gold enzymes. My information about plant-based enzymes comes from information I read from Andy Cutler in his "Amalgam Illness" book. There's a list of high sulfur foods here that does identify bromelain and papain as being high sulfur and they are both plant-based enzymes: http://livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/high-sulfur-sulphur-food-list/

Perhaps they are the only 2 enzymes to be concerned about though. I'm not sure.

 

[nanciswell]

Just putting out the info I have on molybdenum.. It affects the copper/zinc balance.. I find zinc supplements can give me nausea..

also may have some affects with mercury?

 

[hixxy]

Is a H. pylori breath test typically conclusive if negative? I've also seen reports of both h. pylori causing hyperchlorhydria and hypochlorhydria. Which is it?! Or are both possible?

hixxy