Mold without mold?

Hip

Hip

Senior Member
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18,145
Martin aka paused||M.E. said:
I lived with black mold for six years. But when I got very severe I moved to my parents and this is a 20 years old building without mold. But some levels are quite high (see the attached pictures).
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Do you know about Dr Brewer's theory that ME/CFS patients may have a chronic mold infection in their nasal cavities, which is then constantly releasing mycotoxins into the body?

Brewer tried to treat his ME/CFS patients with nasal antifungal sprays, reportedly with some patients observing benefits.
 
Woof!

Woof!

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523
Hip said:
Do you know about Dr Brewer's theory that ME/CFS patients may have a chronic mold infection in their nasal cavities, which is then constantly releasing mycotoxins into the body?
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Now that's depressing...:aghhh::aghhh::aghhh:
 
Martin aka paused||M.E.

Martin aka paused||M.E.

Senior Member
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2,291
Hip said:
Do you know about Dr Brewer's theory that ME/CFS patients may have a chronic mold infection in their nasal cavities, which is then constantly releasing mycotoxins into the body?

Brewer tried to treat his ME/CFS patients with nasal antifungal sprays, reportedly with some patients observing benefits.
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Yes I know. I remember that you said it made you crash?!
 
Hip

Hip

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Martin aka paused||M.E. said:
I remember that you said it made you crash?!
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The EDTA nasal spray I tried made me crash, but I was fine with the N-acetyl cysteine nasal spray — although I did not notice much benefit from NAC in my short term tests (but then I have no history of mold exposure).

I later found some suggestions that EDTA can make the mucous membranes more leaky, thereby letting in microbial toxins into the body; so that might explain why I experienced ill effects from the EDTA nasal spray.

I think it would be a long shot that any antifungal nasal spray would help, but cheap and simple enough to try.
 
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seamyb

Senior Member
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560
3 days of EDTA spray caused me to crash. Unlike Hip though, I haven't returned to my previous level even after several weeks.

But the EDTA caused me to hallucinate. It inflamed my lymph nodes in the neck.

I haven't resigned fully to the idea that it is permeability of the membranes at work. What could be in a healthy nasal sinus that would cause me to hallucinate after an increase in permeability?

Plus my experiments with iodine inhalation were significant. I had a few days of no feeling sick after a week. It came back a bit but was still vastly improved. I was able to stop all supplements which otherwise keep symptoms at bay.

Iodine caused me air hunger at the start but it went away over time. Actually, it improved my air hunger to the point I was able to take glutathione which usually causes it, while making my fatigue and sick feeling go away. I was doing very well until I stopped the iodine because my throat is sore (I'm worried about thyroid). When I stopped the iodine I could no longer tolerate glutathione after a couple of days.

It's not easy working out wtf is going on.
 
Hip

Hip

Senior Member
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18,145
seamyb said:
But the EDTA caused me to hallucinate. It inflamed my lymph nodes in the neck.
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Wow, that's quite something!



seamyb said:
What could be in a healthy nasal sinus that would cause me to hallucinate after an increase in permeability?
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I don't think it is beyond the realms of possibly that mycotoxins in your nose could have caused some hallucinogenic effects, as a result of increased permeability, or possibly because of increased production of these mycotoxins by the mold.

This Britannica article says:
Mycotoxins of particular importance to the health of humans and livestock include aflatoxins, deoxynivalenol/nivalenol, fumonisins, ochratoxin, and zearalenone. The toxic effects of such substances can include hallucinations, skin inflammation, severe liver damage, hemorrhages, abortion, convulsions, neurological disturbances, and death in livestock and humans.
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Do you know the story of the mass hallucinations that occurred in villages in Britain and other countries in the Middle Ages? We now know this was likely due to the ergot fungus that can grow on grain stores when you get a rainy damp year, weather-wise. Ergot contains LSD-like substances. These villagers would unknowingly be eating bread containing this hallucinogenic fungus, and would be taking LSD-like trips all the time!
 
H

hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
Irat said:
https://neilnathanmd.com/detoxification-of-mycotoxins/

https://neilnathanmd.com/category/mold-toxicitymethylation/

https://daveasprey.com/mold-combo-dr-christensen-and-dr-nathan-829/
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Thanks for the links. Think I'm gonna get his book.

Regarding binders, what are these? Are these for soaking up the toxins, and do they prevent Herx reactions to the antifungals? Are the binders supplements or medications?

Also does anyone know of good mould doctors based in the UK? I know Myhill treats mould but her focus seems to be on Iodine without using binders, which according to Dr Nathan isn't a good idea.
 
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hb8847

Senior Member
Messages
432
Location
United Kingdom
seamyb said:
Iodine caused me air hunger at the start but it went away over time. Actually, it improved my air hunger to the point I was able to take glutathione which usually causes it, while making my fatigue and sick feeling go away. I was doing very well until I stopped the iodine because my throat is sore (I'm worried about thyroid). When I stopped the iodine I could no longer tolerate glutathione after a couple of days.
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Interesting. Are you gonna go back onto it? Also have either you or @Hip considered taking binders to reduce the Herxheimer effects (if indeed that is what's causing the symptoms) and if so which?
 
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seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
hb8847 said:
Interesting. Are you gonna go back onto it? Also have either you or @Hip considered taking binders to reduce the Herxheimer effects (if indeed that is what's causing the symptoms) and if so which?
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I've started taking binders after I found the reasoning behind it - Even if the infection isn't in the gut, the liver detoxifies the mycotoxins and excretes it in the bile into the intestines. This can (in theory) cause the mycotoxins to reenter the enterohepatic circulation through the portal venous system.

Can't say I've noticed much of an effect. I've only started activated charcoal but will start bentonite clay soon. The combination of the two should cover a lot of the most popular mycotoxins. The latter covers more of them than the former.

As for the iodine, I don't know. I'm gonna see how I get on without it and if I improve (I really have a strange pain in the throat right where the thyroid is) I'm not gonna touch it again. Actually if I don't improve I probably won't touch it either lol.

Right now I'm doing a xylitol nasal spray with essential oils in it. I've started inhaling vicks which has antimicrobial oils in it. I'll get a load of essential oils and circulate inhaling them through a salt inhaler.

I've a load of supplements I haven't touched but am interested in - resveratrol, green tea extract, quercetin, probiotics. If I can figure out a way to stop air hunger I can take as much glutathione as I want and feel great.
 
I

Irat

Senior Member
Messages
288
hb8847 said:
Thanks for the links. Think I'm gonna get his book.

Regarding binders, what are these? Are these for soaking up the toxins, and do they prevent Herx reactions to the antifungals? Are the binders supplements or medications?

Also does anyone know of good mould doctors based in the UK? I know Myhill treats mould but her focus seems to be on Iodine without using binders, which according to Dr Nathan isn't a good idea.
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Binders like bentonite clay,charcoal etc help the body during detox to soak up toxins, heavy metals and other harmful materials.............
 
V

Viala

Senior Member
Messages
709
seamyb said:
Plus my experiments with iodine inhalation were significant. I had a few days of no feeling sick after a week. It came back a bit but was still vastly improved. I was able to stop all supplements which otherwise keep symptoms at bay.
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What's the recipe for iodine inhalation? I'm testing iodine myself but never heard about inhalations, it could be a good addition.
 
V

Viala

Senior Member
Messages
709
Irat said:
Binders like bentonite clay,charcoal etc help the body during detox to soak up toxins, heavy metals and other harmful materials.............
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I tried activated charcoal in the past but it made me extremely thirsty even with smaller doses, is it a common reaction?
 
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Irat

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Messages
288
V

Viala

Senior Member
Messages
709
Irat said:
Yes,activated Charcoal can cause dehydration.and you need to drink Lots of Water ...i don t know first hand which binders are best and which one for which toxin
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I remember drinking tons of water but it didn't help, so I stopped using it. Maybe other binder like zeolite clay would work differently.
 
S

seamyb

Senior Member
Messages
560
Viala said:
What's the recipe for iodine inhalation? I'm testing iodine myself but never heard about inhalations, it could be a good addition.
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I can't recommend iodine at the moment. There is a link to myhill recommending it on hip's Brewer's protocol post on the mold forum. But I'm very unwell at the minute and it's possible that I've annoyed my thyroid. I've definitely a sore and swollen throat right where the thyroid is, but the increase in cfs could be from other things I've been doing, I'll know in a week or two of doing nothing and retrying the other stuff.

It's not for long term use and we need long term solutions. Iodine isn't it.
 
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