Micro nutrient deficiency causes ME/CFS not germs

[alex3619]

None of those organism cause death or long term disease. All that matters is micro nutrient status.

This is an absurd claim.

 

[datadragon]

Some of my lab results, as requested by @robinhood12345


B6-Vit (20-121) 158 nmol/l


As you can see, everything is more or less exactly in the middle of reference range. Except the first test of B6, which is clearly above maximum range. But the second B6 test, which is measuring activity of aspartate aminotransferase, shows normal B6 levels. This is supposed to be the more accurate way of measuring actual B6 levels.

So what does this really tell me? That my B6 levels are high despite no supplementation prior to the lab test. Clearly this has nothing to do with nutrition whatsoever, but may actually be a sign that I don't utilize B6 properly, and B6 builds up in plasma because of this. This is a finding that has actually been confirmed in some autistic kids as well. But clearly, the measurement of even these basic vitamins is not straightforward. Higher plasma levels of B6 may actually mean I'm deficient.

Just a thought, some people, including many irish descendants have a genetically impaired conversion of B6 into its active form. They had high serum B6 due to this impairment as its not being converted and utilized. Another thought is that magnesium is required for the conversion and mag is typically low in burnout (do you have twitching, muscle spasm, sore muscles, leg cramps or tightness etc?). Always take B6 or B complex pills in the active form such as P5P. Personally I had a hard time with magnesium. Bioschwartz Magnesium Bisglycinate was really the only pill form that worked well for me (symptoms lowered within the hour), as well as Magnesium Chloride oil (topical), and boirons (havent tried other brands yet) Magnesia Phosphorica 30x which is sublingual seemed to work in minutes for symptoms, but is not enough for fixing a deficiency on its own. Epsom salts may work. Might be due to low stomach acid which is caused from low zinc leading to low potassium and needs betaine hcl at meals, or low boron which is also needed for mag. Didnt get much when taking doctors best mag glycinate even at larger doses.

A low vitamin D seems to be more indicative of low magnesium (required for its conversion to the active form) and boron 3-6mg/day and fixing those raises D.

 

[iwillwin1day]

Is dengue also cause by micro nutrient deficiency? There is no cure for dengue and many people die in my country.

 

[datadragon]

I understand that ME/CFS has some immune issues as well. In one of the studies I linked, CE/MFS were mentioned to be in the adrenal exhaustion state (low cortisol) as I outlined how that can occur. In that state, the improper functioning of metallothionein from zinc deficiency, there will be an increased sensitivity to heavy metals and vaccines, poor immune function, yeast overgrowth, high susceptibility to parasitic infections/viruses. I can see with TH1 supressed we have a state where viruses will reactivate or take hold that normally would not or parasitic infection as mentioned.
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/homing-fundamenal-cause-epstein-barr-reactivation/

The zinc deficiency causes immunity problems in burnout:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2277319/

Also in exhaustion, metals accumulate since they arent being detoxed. So its quite possible that mercury can now be present. Mercury happens to inhibit nitric oxide production, which nitric oxide (NO) kills or inhibits the replication of a variety of intracellular pathogens should mercury be present when burnout occurs from nutrient deficiency. Mercury, like copper, will further put a demand for magnesium.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12175822

Mercury happens to be one of the stressors also as its in nearly all seafood, and dental amalgams. Recent research also mentioned that wifi doubles the rate of mercury release from amalgams. 1.7-3g L-Arginine + 100mg Vitacost Pine Bark Extract or Pycnogenol which converts it to NO I found to work very well with my mercury to restore NO function as long as you supplement. Maybe that would help someone in regard to the virus aspect of the problems, but keep in mind in exhaustion you also still have zinc deficiency,magnesium usually, and likely b vitamins, potassium. Copper is accumulating so you will have issues with that, which also can deplete vitamin c and molybdenum. copper also wont be attached to ceruloplasmin much so its deficient. And low stomach acid will further cause problems with other nutrients absorbing them. So thats probably why these attempts to just fix the virus wont fix you completely. The virus isnt causing all that, its an additional problem. Maybe someone can figure out if there is a way to make copper peptide or such that can act the same as copper attached to ceruloplasmin in the body. Now that would help and be useful during treatment. If copper is ingested and not attached, its not usable and in exhaustion its not going to get bound to ceruloplasmin.

Cortisol can be increased in production by viral infections by the way, so I guess it IS possible that a virus comes first and alongside other stressors mentioned or corticosteroids it starts off the nutrition imbalances of zinc and magnesium leading to the burnout. But the body would in many viruses fight it off unless mercury it appears would prevent NO.

JES, most people remain in a functional state until adrenal burnout. And so long as you have zinc more then copper, and magnesium, you should remain in an earlier state. stress creates an anti stress response of cortisol. The amount of which for those minor stressors is well within the resources of the body to deal with and then things return to normal. Fatigue is mild and usually in the morning when waking up or the mid afternoon in the first stage. To get through the mild fatigue, people turn to stimulants like caffeine. This puts the adrenals into over drive to cover up the early signs and symptoms of the fatigue, but people are completely functional and symptom free. The insulin producing portion of the pancrease is also affected. Imbalance in blood sugar levels results in low energy and this dysfunction is temporarily fixed by quick fixes such as high sugar content soda drinks, energy potions and high carb foods such as donuts, plus caffeine. Many people even consider this state normal as part of living in the modern society. Those who require coffee to kick start a day may already suffer from initial adrenal fatigue and hopefully they are able to keep up those resources of magnesium, zinc, and b vitamins especially to not progress or rest and recovery.

 

[datadragon]

Alcohol intolerance is zinc deficiency. Zinc is needed to metabolize alcohol.

 

[datadragon]

ApoE4 carriers have a reduced ability to detox heavy metals, especially lead and mercury. This is because the structure of apoE4 gives it a more limited ability to bind to and remove metals from tissues within the body. Apoliprotein may help remove copper from the brain and tissues, and apoE4 has no copper binding cysteines, apoE3 one, and apoE2 two.

Adrenal Exhaustion where cortisol later becomes low (HPA Axis Dysfunction) IS part of later stage ME/CFS
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...of-women-with-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.60069/, and I've outlined how the body can get to that state. When stressors deplete nutrients like Magnesium, Zinc, and B vitamins, ceruloplasmin declines and metals including copper increase, the carriers of ApoE4 will greatly struggle with removal of the metals, adding an even stronger demand on the body for nutrients that it cant keep up with. While I can see that an overload of copper exposure or stressors by itself could overwhelm the nutrition demand on the body, those with ApoE4 the effect would be magnified having trouble removing them and may explain why only some develop burnout.

https://www.thepaleomom.com/genes-know-apoe/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4030141/

 

[Hip]

I've outlined how the body can get to that state.

I think you meant to say that you outlined your highly speculative theory on how the body can get into that state. It's important not to present personal theories as scientific fact. If you have a personal theory, you might want to prefix your statements with something like: "My own theory is that...". Otherwise readers may think that your statements are based on known medical understanding of a condition.

Alcohol intolerance is zinc deficiency.

Where is the evidence that ME/CFS alcohol intolerance is caused by zinc deficiency?

 

[datadragon]

I think you meant to say that you outlined your highly speculative theory on how the body can get into that state. It's important not to present personal theories as scientific fact. If you have a personal theory, you might want to prefix your statements with something like: "My own theory is that...". Otherwise readers may think that your statements are based on known medical understanding of a condition.

Where is the evidence that ME/CFS alcohol intolerance is caused by zinc deficiency?

My own theory is that although much of the effects on the body such as from copper was forwarned ever since Carl Pfeiffer, MD, PhD first wrote about the devastating health effects of copper toxicity in 1975 and just hasnt still yet gone mainstream fully. Many think adrenals just get fatigued, rather then run out of nutrients as well.

My own theory is that Intolerance = The body simply doesnt have enough resource 'zinc' to metabolize/eliminate alcohol, and zinc is depleted from alcohol use as well as magnesium, copper, iron, and some B vitamins if I remember correctly.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6384394

Alcohol dehydrogenase, low Km and high Km mitochondrial and microsomal aldehyde dehydrogenase, and in vivo ethanol elimination rates were determined in five groups of male Sprague-Dawley rats given liquid diets, as follows: control (C), control plus 5% ethanol (CE), pair-fed control and zinc-deficient (PC-ZnD), zinc-deficient (ZnD), and zinc-deficient plus 5% ethanol (ZnDE). Rats fed CE had decreased liver and serum zinc content. The animals given ZnD diets had an even more dramatic decrease in their tissue zinc concentrations and displayed marked growth retardation. The in vivo blood ethanol elimination rate was increased in animals fed ethanol, and this increase was accompanied by increased alcohol and aldehyde dehydrogenase activities. There was a significant decrease in the ethanol elimination rate in rats given ZnD and ZnDE diets. Alcohol dehydrogenase activities in rats with deficient zinc levels also were decreased, and there were no changes in acetaldehyde dehydrogenase activities. Our results suggest that the metabolism of ethanol to acetaldehyde is impaired in zinc deficiency, but acetaldehyde to acetate conversion appears normal.

By the way, if one's mother is deficient in zinc, her child will be born deficient in zinc. This is not a genetic defect, but simply a nutritional imbalance passed on from the mother to the child. If the mothers body contains excessive copper, mercury, lead, or cadmium, these are also passed directly through the placenta to the child. The child will then start life and exibit symptoms related to these nutritional imbalances.

https://www.drlam.com/blog/heavy-metal-poisoning-and-adrenal-fatigue-part-1/5999/

 

[Hip]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6384394

That study indicates that ethanol metabolism is impaired in zinc deficiency; and since it has been shown that ME/CFS patients are low in zinc, it's conceivable that may play a role in the alcohol intolerance reported in ME/CFS. So what you have presented in an interesting theory of what might cause alcohol intolerance in ME/CFS.

 

[datadragon]

P5P is synthesized primarily in the liver from pyridoxine (B6) with the help of enzymes. This requires Vitamin B2, Zinc, and Magnesium. P5P is associated with numerous enzymes, many of which are involved in amino acid metabolism. These can be low or deficient keeping the normal conversion from occuring. This process produces the neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenaline, Gaba, as well as the haemoglobin in red blood cells. B6, Zinc, and Mag are all also part of the process for Serotonin/Melatonin as well as stomach acid when goes low once zinc/mag goes low then potassium. A high B6 level indicates you are likely not converting it properly, and should use supplements containing P5P form.

High copper levels interfere with the body's most abundant inhibitory neurotransmitter Gamma Amino Butyric Acid (GABA). GABA provides a sense of calm and relaxation in the body and functions together with Glutamate, the body's main excitatory neurotransmitter, to provide a balance between excitation and inhibition of nerve cells. Excessive copper levels disrupt the Vitamin B6 dependant enzyme glutamate decarboxylase, inhibiting the conversion of Glutamate into GABA. This Glutamate/GABA imbalance results in high glutamate levels, resulting in impaired speech, aggressive behaviour, intense irritablity, anxiety, inflammation of the gastrointestinal tract (GIT), and eventually neuronal destruction. So it can be early on with B6 not converting, then worse as copper can build up. Serum copper may remain high due to intake, Ceruloplasmin (Usable copper) will however be lower range or deficient upon burnout due to no longer being attached well to ceruloplasmin.

 

[datadragon]

Additionally, low vitamin B6 levels have been associated with a decreased production of lymphocytes, which leads to impaired immune function. Furthermore, a deficiency in vitamin B6 can wreak havoc on the body because it can result in a form of anemia that is similar to iron deficiency anemia – leaving the body listless and fatigued. As previously mentioned, the nervous and immune systems need vitamin B6 to function optimally. Plus, vitamin B6 is required for carbohydrate, protein and lipid metabolism, which supports the synthesis of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) – the body’s biological energy molecule.

Some people mention a lack of dreaming. Vitamin B6 is responsible for the lucid dreaming. In my view of how this ME/CFS progresses,the lack of magnesium or zinc and maybe even the B2 keeps the conversion of B6 from occuring to its active form P5P causing a deficiency. You can take the active form P5P, and will start to remember dreams when enough. The first I read about that was in a book Nutrition and Mental Illness An orthomolecular approach to balancing body chemistry by Cal C Pfeiffer, PhD MD. Maybe first try a B complex with the active P5P so you get all of them like Thorne stress b complex, but can get and take more P5P if needed as what they suggested.

I also read in the book Nutrition and Mental Illness by Carl C Pfeiffer, Phd, MD says that 11% of the normal population and 30% of schizophrenics has pyroluria, an abnormal production of a group of chemicals called pyrroles. A patient with a high levels of pyrroles in the urine needs more B6 and Zinc since these pyrroles rob the body of these essential nutrients. Under stress, those with pyroluria would also have a harder time. So both pyroluria and ApoE4 would be at minimum additional risk factors.

 

[pamojja]

https://coppertoxic.com/adrenals

You already in multiple treats posted this link to a side which sells HTMAs and interpretation. Now even in an PM exchange without being asked, you recommended me to get this interpretation done.

Therefore I would like to ask you to make transparent your financial ties to that side.

 

[datadragon]

None. I am only a paying patient who orders htma tests for myself for health reasons to get additional information on my health issues and found it to be additionally helpful in my improvement so far. You had said you were seeing the same symptoms I mentioned which was copper, so I suggested to visit the site and see if you thought copper might be involved and could get their help on that area if you wanted as I did. As you said to me and I agree it seems that a practitioner might be required as it requires a unique treatment for each person until main science has other alternatives. I have just thought to share the info I found for myself as maybe it will lead to other treatments or knowledge that will further help us all. A lot of that stuff is not in the hands of regular researchers. It is only part of the puzzle.

 

[iwillwin1day]

HTMA test are useless as there is no scientific backup behind it. Another quack method to fool people and earn money.

 

[pamojja]

Therefore I would like to ask you to make transparent your financial ties to that side.

None. I am only a paying patient who orders htma tests for myself for health reasons to get additional information on my health issues..

As you said to me and I agree it seems that a practitioner might be required as it requires a unique treatment for each person until main science has other alternatives.

Thanks for making your ties clear. I actually said in the answering PMs that no one can give any suggestions without knowing a person's whole medical history and considering all bio-chemical abnormalities, it's just too individual. Never mentioned a practitioner. After which you continued to give unasked for advise repeatedly, and I therefore asked you to please quit. Upon which you gladly left the PM with your last remark, 'no reason to be rude'. In my eyes it is rather rude to continue suggesting treatments in the context of not knowing one's whole medical history and not being asked for.

HTMA test are useless as there is no scientific backup behind it. Another quack method to fool people and earn money.

HTMA tests are just testing mineral and toxic metal levels in hair tissue. As other lab tests do in urine serum, plasma RBC or whole blood. Each of these methods has its strengths and shortcomings. For example a serum Magnesium test would almost always fail in detecting a severe Magnesium deficiency (as it was in my case over many years). But is nevertheless done if one mentions Magnesium deficiency to doctors. Had to do a whole blood Mg-test out of my pocket to really have it confirmed through testing.

'Quack' in this respect is just a derogatory adjective only possible to come from someone who doesn't understand how little accuracy many of this different lab tests have, in which tests respective elements are indeed accurate, and having the understanding to interpret such dynamic results. Be it serum, whole blood or hair tests. And best, a combination of them all. One of the strengths of HTMA is that it tests for a wide range of minerals and toxic metal, which costs just a little more as doing just 1 or 2 of the toxic metals the conventional way as self-pay.

Another quack method to fool people and earn money.

HTMA compared to conventional lab tests, it's actually the later which makes any health conscious patient broke, with just about the same inaccuracies.

 

[Hip]

HTMA tests are just testing mineral and toxic metal levels in hair tissue.

From what I read, hair testings is fine for measuring levels of toxic elements like mercury or lead, but is not accurate for nutritional elements like calcium, magnesium, zinc, etc. In other words, hair testing is not an accurate way to measure nutritional status, but can tell you if you have for example high levels of mercury.

 

[pamojja]

From what I read, hair testings is fine for measuring levels of toxic elements like mercury or lead, but is not accurate for nutritional elements like calcium, magnesium, zinc,

In this post the opinion of someone with more experience with HTMA: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...tivity-th-resistance.58209/page-9#post-973680

In my case that kind of interpretation was confirmed by comparing either serum or whole blood test to also done 8 yearly HTMAs. Calcium, sodium, potassium, phosphorus, zinc, copper and iron had a good association, magnesium less (which as already alluded to, serum electrolyte often can't assess nutritional status accurately too). The reason I couldn't find association with the other essential trace minerals lies more in the fact, that these conventional blood or serum tests are so bloody expensive and I simply couldn't afford them done.

 

[pamojja]

hair testings is fine for measuring levels of toxic elements like mercury or lead,

Even here one has to be clear that it can only show toxic metals which have been circulated during the growing of the hair sample (usually 1 inch, therefore approximately the last 3 month). It would never show old exposures stored away in some other body tissues. Just as a serum or urine would show what's present at that very moment only. Old exposures here too would go unrecognized without a provocation test giving chelating agents. Which again might come with side-effects.

Interestingly the only toxic element in my hair HTMAs which ever elevated one year, even above normal the next, and lowered to just elevated the 3rd year, in my case was Uranium. Though above opinion-piece doesn't give much credence to uranium in hair, I actually found out that high sodium bicarbonate is used for chelating uranium, and just before my hair uranium rose I had started with up to 3g of bicarbonates.

 

[iwillwin1day]

stingly the only toxic element in my hair HTMAs which ever elevated one year, even above normal the next, and lowered to just elevated the 3rd year, in my case was Uranium

May be you are getting ultra trace uranium from fish. Also glutathione and NAC can chelate uranium.

 

[pamojja]

May be you are getting ultra trace uranium from fish. Also glutathione and NAC can chelate uranium.

Actually a very likely contribution factor. Especially considering that I've on the same south Indian beach since 2012. First time for 3 month, than every year for six weeks. Located just 20 miles from Kaiga Atomic power station. And 2013 uranium rose for the first time in my HTMAs. Beside swimming in the ocean there, I also enjoyed local small fish.

What still make me prefer the chelating theory through bicarbonate or also NAC, is that I've been there always in the deepest winter, while taking HTMAs always in fall. And those 3 months from summer/fall there shouldn't be circulating Uranium in my system.