Micro nutrient deficiency causes ME/CFS not germs

Gingergrrl

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Deficiencies can be due to a number of factors, including but not limited to:
-genetic factors hampering synthesis of nutrients
-malabsorption in the gut, due to digestive problems and/or disease
-metabolic blocks which impair the body's ability to access or use certain nutrients
-a slew of other things I've not thought of.
Well said and this is what I was trying to express but you did a much better job ;)
 
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In Australia it is possible to do whole blood thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, pyridoxine, and for biotin, two urinary organic acids. Also vitamin c, and I'm not sure if the fat soluble vitamins A,D,E, and K can be tested here or not. A GP can order these blood tests, and they can be done at a normal pathology centre. They might all be free under medicare.

This one in USA looks good

https://www.healthlabs.com/comprehensive-vitamin-panel-1

  • Carotene (Beta Carotene)
  • Vitamin A
  • Vitamin B1
  • Vitamin B2
  • Vitamin B3
  • Vitamin B5
  • Vitamin B6
  • Vitamin B12
  • Vitamin C
  • Vitamin D 25-Hydroxy
  • Vitamin E
  • Vitamin K
  • Folic Acid (Folates)
It lacks biotin, choline, and PABA of the b vitamin group though it is still a worthwhile test. If those three other essential nutrients could be included in panels like the above, then such a test, and whole genome sequencing would be able to provide a ME/CFS patient with a speedy, relatively cheap diagnosis rather than going doctor to doctor to doctor for years, taking lots of supplements, and spending potentially tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars.
 

bertiedog

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The majority on every poll, and informal survey, I have seen on PR cannot tolerate alcohol. I developed a complete intolerance to alcohol when I got sick due to the high histamine content and it being a vasodilator when I already had very low BP.
It was one of the first things I couldn't tolerate and that was 23 years before I developed full blown ME/CFS

Pam
 

alex3619

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There are lots of scientific issues here.

The big issue with micronutrients is soil depletion far more than inadequate diets. We take the nutrients from the soil in farms and do not replace them.

Micronutrient deficiency as defined by normal ranges can lead to some symptoms. Some people with very low levels might be symptom free however, as normal ranges are statistical norms, and do not allow for population variation if you treat them as hard values. Similarly people can have very very high levels and still be deficient. Again, it depends on the details of their individual biochemistry. Normal ranges are just guides.

The argument here is that deficiency can cause symptoms, therefore every disease is caused by deficiency. This is beyond implausible. Its been categorically disproved countless thousands of times. Every time we find any other cause it disproves the general assertion.

There are established scientific procedures to establish causation if a suspect causative factor is implicated. The claims here do not even make it to the first stage of such a process.

The issue with very sudden onset, to the hour, of CFS and ME, looks much more like some biochemical switch is thrown. While deficiencies cannot be discounted as risk or contributory factors they are not likely to be causal, except for some as yet unidentified subgroup that may or may not exist.

The history of science is also the history of bias, error and false hypotheses. In science its important to identify what factors or predictions would disprove an hypothesis, and not to focus on proof. If something passes every attempt to disprove it then it might be a good hypothesis.

In terms of clinical treatment the best kind of study, and its still not without potential confounds, is a rigorous double blinded placebo controlled randomised trial with appropriate objective outcome measures. Each component is aimed at removing some kind of bias in the outcome, but sometimes these fail because its methodologically unsound in other ways, and they can also fail by simple chance.

Somebody said so a hundred years ago, when rigorous science was still in its infancy, is not something that can be presumed to be robust.

I cannot speak for others but I have tested (by taking them) just about every micronutrient, or some member of each family but not necessarily every variant, like very kind of vitamin E for example. Some do help. None are curative that I have yet discovered, even in combination, and I used to practice shotgun protocols, where I use a dose of everything I can think of.

However I am curious. Is haemochromatosis caused by some deficiency in this hypothesis? It is by definition an excess of iron, and other disorders of micronutrient excess are well known.

Hypotheses like micronutrients cause all disease violate just about all the known evidence. Such extraordinary claims require a very sound justification even to be considered.

However it is not beyond possible that some micronutrient deficiencies might contribute to CFS or even ME, but the nature of that has not been determined yet, if indeed its even an issue. CoQ10 deficiency, and not usually caused by dietary issues, is likely to be a factor in a subset, for example.
 

Hip

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Here is one showing b2 riboflavin is low in CFS patients

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/37/E5472
Showing a deficiency of one or more nutrients in ME/CFS does not prove those deficiencies cause ME/CFS. As has been mentioned, nutrient deficiency may correlate with ME/CFS, but that does not imply it causes ME/CFS.

The same applies for example to infection in ME/CFS: finding an infection in ME/CFS patients does not prove that the infection causes ME/CFS, as correlation does not imply causation.


It's really just a case of being careful with language. In law you would not state that someone is guilty until they are proven so; and science too, you would not present something as a fact until there is solid evidence to prove it.
 

Mary

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If micro nutrient deficiency caused ME/CFS I (and probably most of the people on this board) would be cured. I take a ton of supplements, covering all the bases. I have more energy taking them and feel worse when I don't, but they haven't cured my ME/CFS. I still crash regularly after overdoing it. I have eaten better than almost everyone I know for years, even before I developed ME/CFS, but that didn't prevent it from happening.

I know people who eat crap, a lot of sugar, and they don't have ME/CFS. But when they feel like it, they clean up their diet and always seem surprised that they feel better (though they don't stick with it). It's maddening actually - they can choose at any time to improve their health - I'd kill to have that choice. BUT even with their self-inflicted nutrient deficiencies, they don't have ME/CFS.

I am sure there is a correlation between nutrient deficiency and ME/CFS. So many of us have to take extra nutrients - B12, folate, lots of the Bs, potassium etc. just to barely function. Something obviously is awry. But filling in those nutrient gaps, while making one feel better, does not solve the underlying problem which is causing those deficiencies to begin with, nor the problems of PEM, immune dysfunction, etc. It feels like plugging holes in a dike.

As others have said, correlation does not equal causation. Though I would not be at all surprised that whatever mechanism or pathogen is responsible for ME/CSF, also causes these deficiencies. I am always surprised when I talk to people (non-ME/CFS) who have a high level of functioning without massive doses of supplemental nutrients - I forget that that's how our bodies are supposed to work.
 

Sundancer

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The issue with very sudden onset, to the hour, of CFS and ME, looks much more like some biochemical switch is thrown. While deficiencies cannot be discounted as risk or contributory factors they are not likely to be causal, except for some as yet unidentified subgroup that may or may not exist.
yes, even though for me it did not start with a viral infection, one evening I went to bed more or less normal, just not having much energy. Next morning I woke up with unable to move for something like an hour. After that hell broke loose. Indeed, a switch that turned and how to flip it back the way it should.

about nutrients, apart from nutrientstatus before the switch was thrown, I have a suspicion that the state of having ME sort of prohibits our body to absorb the necessary nutrients from the foodintake.

before I fell ill I lived decidedly healthier then the average, clean diet, good weight, strong and supple body, had not used alcohol for years ( why should I, I was happy, no need for intoxicating stuff)
 
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Nutrition deficiencies will always vary of course as we all have unique differences in diet etc, however what I'm suggesting is that the nutritional deficiencies brought on by ongoing stressors to the body can lead to all the cascade of symptoms of ME/CFS, just a bit of it here to start. Magnesium is required for over 300 enzyme systems that regulate diverse biochemical reactions in the body including being necessary as well for production of ATP energy. Copper is required for completing the electron transport in the mitochondria where our energy is produced, and it is required to be attached to ceruloplasmin to be usable at all by the body. It no longer will be attached well to ceruloplasmin when adrenals become too weak from the stress making you low or deficient of copper even though copper is being taken in, Zinc is also very important for metallothionein (MT) synthesis. One of MTs vital roles is to bind to copper for enhancement of utilization or for removal and excretion. Without adequately absorbed dietary zinc, MT synthesis is impaired, further allowing copper (along with other toxins and metals) to build up. Without this zinc, excess copper builds up in tissues which then interferes particularly with the liver and digestion, among other systems as well. A vicious cycle is then created, because as liver / bile function and digestive processes decline, meat protein becomes less tolerable. Without adequate zinc, the individual lacks the ability to retain potassium.

Adequate potassium is necessary for hydrochloric acid secretion in the stomach. Copper toxic individuals very often will also have gut concerns, including candida and yeast, low HCl, poor nutrient absorption, gluten sensitivity, even leaky gut. One of copper's roles is that of an anti-fungal, and when in balance, helps to control fungi and yeast / candida in the gut. However, with toxic levels of copper, much of this copper is in a bio-unavailable form stored in tissues, and is not serving it's role in controlling the candida / yeast, or other parasites. This, along with the anaerobic GI environment that's created, allows candida, fungi, yeast, parasites and bacteria to flourish. Meanwhile, as mentioned above, copper toxicity (by way of lowering zinc) also reduces hydrochloric acid production. When hydrochloric acid (HCl) is low, the healthy gut flora are weakened (and zinc is lowered further - a vicious cycle). HCl helps kill off pathogens and is required for the absorption of nutrients such as calcium, iron, and various vitamins. Reduced digestive enzyme production occurs and the intestine becomes overly alkaline, giving a nice home to pathogenic bacteria. Copper toxicity leads to low HCl by way of slowing metabolism and reducing sodium and potassium levels, two minerals which are required in the production of HCl. The destruction of gut function and the collapse of one's metabolism are hallmarks of copper toxicity. Long term copper-induced zinc deficiency will increase the permeability of the gut lining, contributing to leaky gut and food intolerances.

As copper and mercury and other metals begin to accumulate its further putting more stress on the adrenals until the nutrients are depleted and burnout occurs. Low cortisol (HPA axis dysfunction) is one end result of those depleted nutrients (adrenal burnout phase).
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...of-women-with-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.60069/ - Here you see that most CFS patients have low cortisol, which is the end result of depleted nutrients from the various potential stress triggers.

Copper if its high can also deplete vitamin c and molybdenum. Mercury from amalgams is slowly released, the rate is doubled by wifi/radiofrequency exposure, plus is in most all seafood these days. Mercury happens to also deplete zinc and magnesium as well as attach to selenium, cause issues with iodine, nitric oxide, na-k-atpase and much more. B vitamins are depleted with stress and have important functions all throughout the body.

TH1 is later supressed and allows viruses to reactivate, which would be an additional issue that some face with CFS. Apparently this can lead to depletion of CoQ10 for example.
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/homing-fundamenal-cause-epstein-barr-reactivation/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2277319/ zinc deficiency and immunity

Issues with anxiety, depression can be caused by lack of any one of the magnesium, zinc, b6, an excess of copper depleting the things with an X.
https://understand-andcure-anxietya...pression.com/images/MelatoninCopperBlocks.jpg

Here is some information on some of the details of the stress process and effects on the body.
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?posts/980149/
https://coppertoxic.com/adrenals
https://coppertoxic.com/flowchart - click to enlarge, zoom controls on lower right then.
https://remedygrove.com/misc/Hypercupremia-High-Copper
https://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenalexhaustion.asp

All of this from nutrient deficiencies as you can see.

Alcohol is simply another stressor that happens to have an even bigger release of cortisol then a stress event. Caffeine is a stressor, heavy metals like copper and mercury are usually involved, anger, chronic illness, depression, surgery, high sugar intake, over exercise, sleep deprivation, chronic or acute infections including Giardia and H. pylori and root canal repair are all treated the same with the release of cortisol and adrenaline, starting the cycle. A list of life stressors.
https://www.health24.com/Mental-Health/Stress/Stress-management/41-major-life-stressors-20120721
 
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JES

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Alcohol is simply another stressor that happens to have an even bigger release of cortisol then a stress event. Caffeine is a stressor, heavy metals like copper and mercury are usually involved, anger, chronic illness, depression, surgery, high sugar intake, over exercise, sleep deprivation, chronic or acute infections including Giardia and H. pylori and root canal repair are all treated the same with the release of cortisol and adrenaline, starting the cycle.
The things you mention can no doubt be stressors to the body, but they are all extremely common. Caffeine, the average person in my country drinks four cups of coffee per day, it doesn't lead to increased prevalence
of CFS. Anger, chronic stress, depression... I would probably not be much wrong in saying most people have experienced that sometimes during their life. High sugar intake, over exercise, sleep deprivation, again, extremely common issues in today's hectic society. Alcohol use, well young adults seem to recover just fine from partying all night and it doesn't seem to cause any CFS outbreaks.

Based on this model, people with stressful jobs and little sleep, for example the president of USA, should be very likely to come down with CFS. But it doesn't happen, CFS seems to hit some 0.5% of the population, and there doesn't seem to be any observed correlation between a stressful life and developing CFS. The only thing I consistently read about from overworked people is that they develop symptoms of burnout, but this is very different from CFS, and those with burnout have a good prognosis of recovering, whereas those with CFS don't.
 
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The body is like a factory. All it needs is the macros (easy to get), and most importantly the micro nutrients (harder to get without a varied diet). Once all the essential micros are given then the body can make everything down the line from that with them. Like a factory conveyor belt system that gets fed a starting material, and the robots/workers which can be likened to the enzymes in the body, transform the starting product (say thiamine) into the needed products for the body to run on (thiamine mono, di, and tri phosphate, thiamine adenine nucleotide, adenosine thiamine di, and tri phosphate).

Luckily in food like wheat germ those multiple different forms of thiamine exists where as if someone is taking a supplement most of the time it is just plain thiamine. In food vitamin b5 exists as phosphopantetheine, and co enzyme a, which are the two major active forms of b5 in the body but in a supplement they just have pantothenic acid. Co enzyme a costs hundreds of dollars just for one gram but exists naturally in food. How cool.
 
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Hip

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The body is like a factory. All it needs is the macros (easy to get), and most importantly the micro nutrients (harder to get without a varied diet).
You can give the body all the nutrition it requires, but that still will not protect you from smallpox, tuberculosis, polio, cholera, mumps, measles, rabies, syphilis and numerous other nasty pathogens.
 

robinhood12345

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You can give the body all the nutrition it requires, but that still will not protect you from smallpox, tuberculosis, polio, cholera, mumps, measles, rabies, syphilis and numerous other nasty pathogens.
None of those organism cause death or long term disease. All that matters is micro nutrient status.
 

JES

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Some of my lab results, as requested by @robinhood12345

S-B12-Vit (180-700) 374 pmol/l
S-B12-TC2 (>35) 89 pmol/l
fE-Folate (>360) 894 nmol/l
B6-Vit (20-121) 158 nmol/l
fe-TKA (B1) (1.01-1.31) 1.16
fe-GRA (B2) 1-34 (1.02-1.68) 1.35
fE-ASATA (B6) (1.24-2.40) 2.11

As you can see, everything is more or less exactly in the middle of reference range. Except the first test of B6, which is clearly above maximum range. But the second B6 test, which is measuring activity of aspartate aminotransferase, shows normal B6 levels. This is supposed to be the more accurate way of measuring actual B6 levels.

So what does this really tell me? That my B6 levels are high despite no supplementation prior to the lab test. Clearly this has nothing to do with nutrition whatsoever, but may actually be a sign that I don't utilize B6 properly, and B6 builds up in plasma because of this. This is a finding that has actually been confirmed in some autistic kids as well. But clearly, the measurement of even these basic vitamins is not straightforward. Higher plasma levels of B6 may actually mean I'm deficient.