Methylation

dmholmes · Sep 14, 2009

Here it is.

Freddd · Sep 14, 2009

Hi Susan,

http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Methyl-B-12-5000-mcg-60-Lozenges/117?at=0

As far as potassium goes, I don't know of any consensus as to which is the best and all sorts of things are used. I've been using the potassium gluconate from NOW Foods. Potasium chloride is used as a sodium salt substitute by people with high bp. Mine used to be borderline high but has dropped almost 50 points in 6 years.

Freddd · Sep 14, 2009

aquariusgirl said:

Hi Aquariusgirl,

The thing about injections is that you can't decide part way through to spit it out. Let's look at the numbers of mb12 injected versus sublingual. If you injected a 10th of ml at 5mg/ml then that is 500 mcg. If you keep a 5mg sublingual in place for 45 minutes you will absorb about 750mcg. In the other hand if you keep 1/8 of a 5mg sublingual in place for 45 minutes, you will absorb something less than 100mcg. If while doing so yuou start becoming uncomfortable simply chew and swallow it and within a couple of minutes things will stop changing. MB12 is what the nervous system funtions on. Clearly if it had much effect your brain is starved for it. That is what gives intense startup effects. Contrary to your implications MB12 doesn't harm the brain but rather starts it working again, which can be disturbing after becoming used to severely reduced functioning for years. That you have any such startup reaction to mb12 indicates that the hydroxyb12 is doing a poor job at best at getting mb12 to your nervous system. Glutathione causes severe symptoms apparantly by reducing methylb12, methylfolate and adenosylb12 into severe deficiency states, at least for some. I had 6 months of misery after trying it until I took sufficienctly high doses of those three supplements and then it cleared up quickly, starting within hours and finishing within days. I'm sorry to see that you have such a severe startup reaction which unfortunately appears mostly typical of folks on the kind of program you have been on, making it a self fulfulling prophacy. I am trying to figure out how people can get themselves out of such a double bind as that without too much reaction. Since reaction is unavoidable when it is of severe deficiency my best advice is the crumb at a time approach, but keep those crumbs going. I don't ever suggest that people start with injections for the reasons you discovered, too much all at once and no way to bail. I would bet that even 10mcg of mb12 would be more effective for you than 75mg of hydroxyb12 based on your experience. That just shows how limited the hydroxyb12 is in actually forming active b12. I have been accused of overstating the startup effects of mb12 by many people. Others think I haven't stated it strongly enough.

lebowski · Sep 29, 2009

thank u

hi fredd , i have cfs and read many of ur posts in this thread and one other .. i just registered to thank u heartfully for all this energy u put into all this ..
i hope it works for me too .. take care

aquariusgirl · Sep 29, 2009

methyl B12 reax

I agree with you on the hydroxy.. that it's not getting to the nervous system or the brain or whatever.

I think that what you call start-up effects of methyl B12 is brain inflammation by virtue of the effect of metals on microglial cells.

"Metals have been shown to activate the mircroglial cells that are responsible for inflammation." Professor Richard Deth.

I'm not sure if I have this right, but the sensation feels like inflammation. It abates after txt with anti inflammatory RNAs (yasko) and I'm guessing Deth's explanation provides the mechanism.

Welcome clarification on this though!!

aquariusgirl · Sep 29, 2009

Titration

and yes, titration seems to be the way to go with all our therapies. maybe start with sublinguals and move to injectable.

this is a lesson I keep having to learn the hard way. Can I blame that on my poor memory!?

Although I must add that everything I hear from the autism folks, and Deth has said this too, is that injectable is far superior to oral..so I guess ultimately you would want to get an Rx.

klutzo · Sep 29, 2009

MB12 and ADB12 dosages - after a week

Hi Freddd and anyone else interested,
I had major problems with shortness of breath from my first dose of 1/2 lozenge of MB12, so I reduced it to 1/4 for two days, and when 1/4 produced no bad symptoms, I went back up to 1/2, and then to a whole 5 mg. lozenge. I've been at one lozenge each morning for a few days now with no further changes noticeable at all while I take it.

I have also been at one lozenge of ADB12 each afternoon for a week now with no changes noted any longer. Unfortunately, the noticeable improvements I had with the first dose went away the next day.

I started the Metafolin yesterday with no noticeable effects. I've been taking the B-right, potassium and TMG from the start.

I have not been able to sleep more than 6 hrs. for a couple of nights, but that can happen to me anyway, so I'm not blaming it on this protocol unless it goes on and on. My hair loss has slowed down to within normal, just barely. That appears to have been a temporary effect of the ADB12, or at least I hope it was temporary.

For background: I have never taken the Hydroxy form. I have been on a multi-vitamin with the methyl form in it for over a decade and have also experimented with MB12 sublingual tabs before, but got no result with them under my tongue.

My questions:
1) Am I supposed to continue raising the dosage beyond one lozenge of each type of B12 per day, and if so, how high do I go?
2) At what point should I do it, and how do I manage the logistics of the 50 mg. challenge? How do you fit ten MB12 lozenges under your upper lip at once?! How do you fit 17 lozenges of ADB12 under your lip at once?!

Thanks very much,
klutzo

froufox · Sep 29, 2009

Hi Freddd,

I just wanted to ask your opinion on things...I have been carrying on with the methylb12 - I havent raised my dose I'm just taking 1/4 of a 1000mcg tab a day plus an extra 60mcg from the Jarrow B Right which I know its only a small amount but I'm too scared to take any more! Plus 1/4 of a tablet of Folapro. My head has been pretty bad the last few days and I am just wondering if this is some kind of detox reaction so wanted to check it out with you. I get memory black outs and really dont know what day it is, it really is like dementia. And/or like mercury is moving, but thats just my intuition, I know you would disagree with that!

Usually in the past when I've had brain fog, its like that part of my brain which clicks in pretty fast and makes me realise that I've made a mistake but with this I really get it wrong for hours!

Do you think its just detox? Does anyone else have any thoughts I'd be most grateful.

The good news is that some things are definitely getting better for example I seem to have gotten my taste for red meat back which I know is related to b12 deficiency. I ate some lamb tonight and it actually made me feel a lot better so I that could post this message! I guess this might be the aminos I needed plus the zinc.

Just to add I'm doing other treatments too (homotoxicology for viruses) I guess it could be the combined effect but the -ve effects defnitely feels like a b12 and/or folapro effect as I've had them before. I cant understand why it would get worse even though I've not raised my dose..

Thanks.

jenbooks · Sep 29, 2009

For those of us who are mercury poisoned and have genetically poor detox maybe we need microdoses of these 2 (b12 and folapro) while also taking binders for metals a few hours later.

froufox · Sep 29, 2009

Thanks Jenbooks, yes I agree with you. Its funny I did think of taking DMSA today as I took DMSA last time when my symptoms from the b12/folapro got worse and it really seemed to help me a lot, but as Ive been trying to assess another therapy I decided against it in order to not confuse things. But I should have been more sensible and just taken it anyway! I'll start taking it again tonight. Thanks.

aquariusgirl · Sep 29, 2009

froufox.. binders

Hi froufox
In your last post, you seem to be saying you are uisng DMSA as a binder. I've never heard of DMSA being used this way.. it's usually activated charcoal or pectin or fibre or sthg.

I think binders do help in my experience...with the usual caveat that you have to use them 2 hrs away from anything else.

Also, I think I recognise the horrible, out of mind..zombie experiences..that you describe. It's like a feeling of just being unplugged, vacant in a sort of alienating way.

I always assumed it was metals being moved out of the brain.

The yasko people would tell you to take a urine toxic metal screen to verify that you are in fact dumping metals. She has traditionally favoured random or spot urines. Now she seems to like fecal metal tests as well, and ftms, utms and hair tests altogether if possible.

I am thinking FTMs, or 24-hr urines are more useful than random urine toxic metal screens... but I'm still figuring it out....

froufox · Sep 29, 2009

Hi Aquariusgirl,

Sorry yes technically its not a binder like charcoal and I agree I would normally use something like charcoal - the one I use is the Dr Schulze intestinal formula 2 to bind to toxins but when the detox is going on in my brain that doesnt seem to be enough....that only works when the toxins are mostly in my gut. The DMSA seems to be helping presumably by attracting any mercury that is being stirred up or released from taking the b12 etc and doesnt seem to be making things worse by chelating more out. At least that is my interpretation of whats happening! It really seemed to helped me a lot last time I tried it too.

I agree it definitely feels like metals being moved out. Thnx for the info on the tests, I've never had a urine or fecal test to verify whats happening but it would probably be a good idea to do that sometime.

Thanks for your input.

Freddd · Sep 30, 2009

aquariusgirl said:

Hi Aquariusgirl,

As active b12s are involved in over 600 biological processes there can be a whole lot of startup symptoms. I don't think anybody has cataloged all of them or their causes. Dr. Wheatly, in her "scalet pimpernel" papers speculated on the role of b12 in controling inflammation and that at first there can be a boost in inflammation before it falls, both as part of the b12 interaction with NO. I do know that in me, and others, CRP levels fall dramatically as healing continues. After 9 months I was able to discontinue 2400mg/day of ibuprofen because I no longer had the inflamation it had been useful for and it no longer had any effect. Good luck.

Freddd · Sep 30, 2009

aquariusgirl said:

Hi Aquariuesgirl,

Please let's distinguish between oral, sublingual and injectable. The way it is absorbed appears true across all varieties. An oral tablet that is swallowed, or a sublingual chew and swallowed, is absorbed at 1% or less and is rather ineffective at best. A sublingual, depending upon brand, can be very effective with 15% absorbtion at 45 minutes as as high as 25% absorbtion at 2 hours. That means that 5mg of one of the 5 star active b12 brands can put 750-1250mcg into the serum which compares very favorably with 1000mcg injection at a much lower cost usually. 1000mcg into serum per day is fully effective for most people. The ones for whom it may not be fully effective are those with a low CNS cerebral spinal fluid cobalamin level as measured in studies of people with CFS/FMS and Alzheimer's. Fortunately, after a person has reached equilibrium on 10-20mg/day of sublingual mb12 with no additional effect from any more, they can perform the 50mg test to see if they could benefit from injections. That is 3-6 months down the road as it takes awhile to work up to that 10-20mg equilibrium and until that is done, there is no way to distinguish a body deficiency from a CNS/CSF deficiency that can only be satisfied with very hiogh serum levels.

Freddd · Sep 30, 2009

froufox said:

Hi Aquariusgirl,

Sorry yes technically its not a binder like charcoal and I agree I would normally use something like charcoal - the one I use is the Dr Schulze intestinal formula 2 to bind to toxins but when the detox is going on in my brain that doesnt seem to be enough....that only works when the toxins are mostly in my gut. The DMSA seems to be helping presumably by attracting any mercury that is being stirred up or released from taking the b12 etc and doesnt seem to be making things worse by chelating more out. At least that is my interpretation of whats happening! It really seemed to helped me a lot last time I tried it too.

I agree it definitely feels like metals being moved out. Thnx for the info on the tests, I've never had a urine or fecal test to verify whats happening but it would probably be a good idea to do that sometime.

Thanks for your input.

Hi Froufox,

The mercury strirred up by mb12 would end up in the bile and feces if nothing else is done to make it end up in the urine.

Freddd · Sep 30, 2009

froufox said:

Hi Froufox,

While I can't give any absolute answers I can offer past observations. When a person first takes mb12 and they have been very deficient, the difference from 0.1% saturated to 1% saturated is a huge 10x difference and is perceived as huge. It's like a temperature overshoot with a thermostat. As it settles down, the perceived change diminishes and things settle back. Increasing the dose then increases the saturation level a bit, say from 1% to 2% and that is noticed but not as a huge difference. Most of the b12 taken in a day is excreted by the next day, better than 99%. Things can start working for a few minutes and then regress as the serum level decreases. All I can say for sure is that symptoms can do all sorts of shifting around and most of it appears to mean very little and changes again and again before one can really get a grip on it. Over time as they shift the trend tends to be better. After the initial period the symptoms tend to settle down and heal. However, as they heal they are just unhealed in a different way until the last step so healing is not perceived as a steady progress in a specific direction. As a nerve comes back for instance it can go form an unnoticed numbness to very noticed pain.

Freddd · Sep 30, 2009

klutzo said:

Hi Klutzo,

I had major problems with shortness of breath from my first dose of 1/2 lozenge of MB12, so I reduced it to 1/4 for two days, and when 1/4 produced no bad symptoms, I went back up to 1/2, and then to a whole 5 mg. lozenge. I've been at one lozenge each morning for a few days now with no further changes noticeable at all while I take it.

Fortunately, a lot of the early startup symptoms don't last long. It's like somebody learning to drive a stick shift car. The first time they let out that clutch it can be bouncy. With some practice they smooth right out. Many of the initial startup phenomina don't repeat or do so for only a short while. It's good that it has smoothed out. I would suggest increasing to several 5mg doses a day, one at a time, both together and separately until adding another makes no difference. Then maintain for a couple of weeks to let the body reach a saturated equilibrium at that dose. The exact dose is unknown, whatever you determine it to be by trial. With the mutivitamin having some mb12 in it for a decade you clearly were not totally deficient, which is good. I would suggest adding in the l-carnitine fumarate and stopping the TMG for i bit to see how that is. Later the TMG can be used to smooth out the carnitine if needed.

I have also been at one lozenge of ADB12 each afternoon for a week now with no changes noted any longer. Unfortunately, the noticeable improvements I had with the first dose went away the next day.

It sounds like you are reaching body equilibrium with the Adb12. So the next step is the L-carnitine fumarate. I would suggest getting the 125mg capsules to start with and working up from there to 500mg. Again, the first dose is likely to have the most effect. This is a significant cofactor with the adb12. For most people, a daily dose beyond 3mg of adb12 makes little if any difference, but for some it does. Later, after more things are started, then the relative mix between mb12 and adb12 can be adjusted for best effect. That differs by person and can make a significant difference.

At what point should I do it, and how do I manage the logistics of the 50 mg. challenge? How do you fit ten MB12 lozenges under your upper lip at once?! How do you fit 17 lozenges of ADB12 under your lip at once?!

After you have started the L-carnitine fumarate and wait a bit and then start the SAM-e the time will come to try the higher dose challanges. Also, you will want to be up to 50-65mg or so on the zinc, and 3000-5000 IU on the D3 first as either of these could be a key. Keep going with the Metafolin.

With the 50-51mg challange dose, one kind one day and the other kind after a day or two it is done as a single contigous dose. With the 5mg tablets I start with 3, two under the lip and one under the tongue making them last as long as possible. After 20 minutes of so add 2 more, then 2 more, then 2 more, as there is room and finally 1 more. Try to retain as much as possible for at least an hour or more after the last one is added. With the 3mg, I start with 5, 4 under lip and 1 under tongue and keep adding 3 more each 20 minutes and then the last one and try to retain for at least an hour after the last 1. Don't plan on talking during this time and swallow as little as possible. You want your mouth to be saturated for as long as possible. This appears to be a sufficient amount to cause penetration of the cerebral spinal fluid by diffusion even when the body has reached a saturated equilibrium. The effects are more subtle than the intial ones and the adb12 are a little deifferent from the mb12. Many people will notice nothing at all, and that's good. It means, we hypothecize, that they are getting satisfactory CSF penetration with their usual sublingual dose. Some have a response. These are the people who could benefit from injections of a suitable dose of mb12 and then timing the sublingual dose of adb12 to the proper time after the injection to ride along with it. This has has all been pragmatically determined by others like yourself and me who have tried it with success.

klutzo · Sep 30, 2009

SAMe and L-carnitine

Hi Freddd,
Thank you so much for your explanation of how to do the 50 mg. challenge. It sounds possible now, though I will look like a vampire while doing it, with all that cherry coloring running down my teeth.

Thanks also for explaining how to raise the two forms of B12 and how to tell when it's high enough.

I have been taking 1,500 mgs. of L-carnitine for over ten years already in my excellent Cardiac multi-vitamin. I took fumirate for awhile too, but noticed no difference. Must it be in fumarate form?

Ditto the zinc, though it is not quite that much in my multi, and I am afraid to take that much zinc. I have never had a white spot on one of my fingernails in my life. Is it that this B12 program going to cause a zinc deficiency?

I also take 8,000 units of D3 daily and have done ever since my insect allergies got so bad I could not stay outdoors. I recently finished 8 weeks of taking 50,000 units of prescription D3 twice weekly, to try to get my 25OD up to 65, since I have a precancer in my stomach. I got it up to 51, but it dropped to 47 after that in two months on 4,000 units daily, which is why I upped it to 8,000. I said it before, but want to mention again for others reading this, that if you are fat, you need double the amount of vitamin D that is recommended, because it literally gets stuck in your fat and does not come out.

SAMe is very expensive and never did anything for me, even when I tried it for several months. Is it absolutely needed here? I don't remember seeing that listed on the necessary list, and I tried this protocol because I could afford it, unlike most things people recommend.

Thank you,
klutzo

Freddd · Sep 30, 2009

klutzo said:

Hi Klutzo,

Thank you so much for your explanation of how to do the 50 mg. challenge. It sounds possible now, though I will look like a vampire while doing it, with all that cherry coloring running down my teeth.

Actually, it isn't cherry coloring at all. That is the color of the B12 itself. It is more of a magenta than a red if you look closely.

I have been taking 1,500 mgs. of L-carnitine for over ten years already in my excellent Cardiac multi-vitamin.

Have you tried the fumarate since adding the adb12 and methylfolate? If not, then you haven't tried it. Also, it must be tried without the acetyl as that for some reason can block it's effectiveness.

Ditto the zinc, though it is not quite that much in my multi, and I am afraid to take that much zinc. I have never had a white spot on one of my fingernails in my life. Is it that this B12 program going to cause a zinc deficiency?

If you haven't tried the zinc since startying the active b12s, methylfolate etc, then you haven't tried the zinc. Titrate, adding 15mg or whatever at a time until it makes no additional difference. On the safe side, at least 25mg total.

SAMe is very expensive and never did anything for me, even when I tried it for several months. Is it absolutely needed here? I don't remember seeing that listed on the necessary list,

True, it is expensive. However, for me only 200mg is needed as more makes no difference. If you haven't tried it since the Mb12, Adb12, carnitine fumarate, methylb12, zinc you haven't tried it.

Order is important. Without the adb12 the carnitine fumarate doesn't serve any purpose for the mitochondria and makes no difference. With the adb12 carnitine becomes the limiting factor.

The two active b12s makes everything more effective. They are the maiximum limiting factors. After adding them other things become the limiting factors.

Dreambirdie · Sep 30, 2009

HI Freddd-

You didn't answer my question about GABA. I'm still wondering why I had such a strange reaction to it--shortness of breath, anxiety and a skippy hard pulse.

ALSO... I've been taking the adB12 for almost 2 weeks, and at this point feel no more strange hunger and fatigue from it. DO I add the metafolin next?

I'm already taking multi minerals, extra 50 mg zinc, extra 400 mag, cod liver oil (with A and D), Vit E, lots of C, about 600 mg K.

Methylation

dmholmes

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