Me/cfs and methylene blue

Davsey27

Senior Member
Messages
520
I was curious if Me/Cfs is a condition that is characterized by mitochondrial dysfunction

Then why doesn't methylene blue[an electronic donor in all 4 complexes of the mitochondria]

As touted by many functional medicine doctors

Seem to help most people ?

Thank you
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
423
Location
USA
Methylene blue inhibits the NLRP3 inflammasome activation and therefore is capable to potentially help in the initial inflammatory state where inflammatory cytokines are high and early phase of starting to get PEM but likely harmful in later stages. By reversing the inflammation you can potentially prevent all the downstream effects from continued chronic inflammation. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-12635-6

Inflammation is a necessary and normal function, and it can also initiate host defense responses against viruses and intracellular bacteria https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28169000/ and this TH1 response requires NLRP3 activation https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21118671/ Many people lack a good TH1 response and so dont clear the virus.

However, an uncontrolled inflammatory signal and chronic inflammation can cause prolonged inflammatory cytokines production, resulting in serious disorders and tissue damage. Blocking NLRP3 activation can be either protective or detrimental at different stages of lethal influenza A (IAV) virus for example. Administration of the specific NLRP3 inhibitor MCC950 to mice from right at the beginning of infection - day one following IAV challenge resulted in hypersusceptibility to lethality, but NLRP3 plays a detrimental role later in infection if the virus is not dealt with initially with a good immune response and allowed to replicate thus contributing to IAV pathogenesis through increased cytokine production and lung cellular infiltrates. So delaying treatment with the NLRP3 inhibitor MCC950 to lower inflammation until the height of disease rather than right away significantly protected mice from severe and highly virulent IAV-induced disease later stages.

TIMING IS IMPORTANT whether you are under enhanced inflammation or not as to answer should you be trying to reduce it. https://escholarship.umassmed.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3815&context=oapubs

-David
 
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Davsey27

Senior Member
Messages
520
Its interesting how Me/cfs pathway(s) seem to be intelligent enough that something on paper looks good but may not address the pathophysiology which seems to be likely heterogeneous

I hear it's good for ebv,long covid,dementia, but it seems at 1-2mg I notice nothing.I used the biopharmacy brand off amazon

Lots of sunlight exposure in AZ.Perhaps combined with these doses of MB it creates reactive oxygen species

I've looked at some of the literature at red light plus Mb.It seems that with me/cfs perhaps some of the senescence stuff[while I think may be necessary following ancestors way because of epigenetics]

Me/cfs may be more complex for many in regards to biohacking as it seems like there are feedback loops and compensatory mechanisms

Perhaps more inflammed lymph nodes day after use

I have heard the late ray peat mentioning he used it at doses similar to thyroid.Like around 40mcg
 

LINE

Senior Member
Messages
927
Location
USA
I did not comb the messages, but the question is where to obtain this. Concerned about safety and quality without a prescription.
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,332
I think 0.5mg is still a very high dose for cognitive benefits.

My understanding is the lower dose regimen is for more cognitive benefits, where the higher doses are for pathogens.

So lower doses often are around 60 micrograms, and higher doses from 1mg - 20mg or more, depending on body weight. From what I"ve read, at higher doses it's more of a MAO inhibitor (so you'd have to watch your diet and drug interactions), where less so at a lower dose.

So 0.5mg is still 500mcg or about 10 times the nootropic dose.
 

Wayne

Senior Member
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4,473
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Concerned about safety and quality without a prescription.

Hi @LINE -- Legitimate concerns. I've been taking MB since February, and feel I've found a reliable product.
I initially purchased a 3.5 oz. 1% solution bottle at Amazon, but you can also buy it for much less if you get the powder (same company) and dilute it with purified water. The ratio is 1 gram of the powder to 100 ml. (about 3.5 oz.) of water. The exact ratio is not really important, and some people like to make it both stronger and weaker than the above ratio. The 1 gram to 100 ml. ratio is the most commonly used however.

This product is pharmaceutical grade (USP), which is what they recommend for taking it internally. There are other less pure grades out there for fish tanks and laboratory use, though I don't really know how much less pure. THIS POST takes you to a list of "recommended dosages", but I take far less, about 10 drops per day. I think most people with ME/CFS should start slowly, like 1-3 drops per day in the beginning. -- If you're interested in more information on MB, check out the thread I started entitled:

Methylene Blue -- The "Perfect Supplement" For ME/CFS (?)

 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
423
Location
USA
@LINE Here is another from amazon similar to waynes post. This methylene blue is United States Pharmacopeia (USP) grade also, which is generally accepted for food, drug, and medicinal use and has heavy metal analysis. https://www.amazon.com/Methylene-Blue-Pharmaceutical-Grade-Solution/dp/B0BC2GGYYS/r at 1%

The first question is whether its mainly the anti inflammatory (NLRP3 inhibition for example) in the earlier stages during higher inflammation that is what people are after, as palmitoylethanolamide (PEA) which uses one pathway (PPAR-a) and has known effects to help restore the gut barrier and microbiome/short chain fatty acid profile and dozens of others that work in various ways I can post a list could be alternatives.

PPAR-a also inhibits STING. timing is important where inflammation is actually very important in early stages of viral infection (Type I interferon mediates an important innate immune response against viral infection by directly inhibiting viral replication.) and if you inhibit it too early there can be higher viral titers when challenged with influenza A virus etc during the early stages of infection, but it IS beneficial to inhibit in a later stage if the virus was able to replicate and was at that later stage causing inflammation because you did not have a good immune response early on, as inhibiting in later stages experienced less tissue damage to lungs. .

Butyrate I've also mentioned is a lipid produced by intestinal bacteria that can regulate inflammation throughout the body. Here we show for the first time that butyrate influences the innate antiviral immune response mediated by type I IFNs. A majority of antiviral genes induced by type I IFNs were repressed in the presence of butyrate, resulting in increased virus infection and replication in cells. We found that butyrate increases cellular infection and virus replication in influenza virus, reovirus, and human immunodeficiency virus infections. In sum, the net effect of butyrate on infection with three divergent RNA viruses was an increase in cellular infection and replication. Further exploring this phenomenon, we found that addition of butyrate to cells deficient in type I interferon (IFN) signaling did not increase susceptibility to virus infection. Accordingly, we discovered that butyrate suppressed levels of specific IFN stimulated gene (ISG) products in human and mouse cells. Butyrate did not inhibit IFN-induced phosphorylation of transcription factors STAT1 and STAT2 or their translocation to the nucleus, indicating that IFN signaling was not disrupted. Rather, our data are suggestive of a role for inhibition of histone deacetylase activity by butyrate in limiting ISG induction including RIG-I. Global transcript analysis revealed that butyrate increases expression of more than 800 cellular genes, but represses IFN-induced expression of 60% of ISGs https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.04.934919v1


Metabolic Control of Viral Infection through PPAR-α Regulation of STING Signaling. PPAR ligands (activators) are immunosuppressive and can increase susceptibility to infection therefore it appears should not be increased greatly in early infection. PPARs mechanisms of action are diverse and include repression of NFκB and AP-1 DNA binding, regulation of nitric oxide, inhibition of dendritic cell maturation, reduction of cytokine expression by effector T cells, and inhibition of leukocyte recruitment to sites of inflammation. Activation of PPAR-α with specific agonists increased herpesvirus replication and reactive oxygen species (ROS) production. ROS inhibited activation of stimulator of interferon (STING), an ER adapter that induces type I interferon downstream of cytoplasmic DNA recognition. Although high ROS induces inflammasome activation and cytokine production, we found that ROS inhibited interferon production. Treatment of mice with a clinically relevant agonist of PPAR-α increased herpesvirus replication and pathogenesis, comparable to levels observed previously in type I interferon receptor knockout mice. These findings show that activated PPAR-α regulates immunity to cytoplasmic DNA, inhibits interferon production, and increases susceptibility to viral infection (in early stages of infection). Moreover, these results demonstrate that ROS inhibit STING activation and induction of interferon https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/731208v3

STING (stimulator of interferon genes) protein regulates metabolic homeostasis through inhibition of the fatty acid desaturase 2 (FADS2) rate-limiting enzyme in polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) desaturation.
STING agonists directly activated FADS2-dependent desaturation, promoting metabolic alterations. PUFAs in turn inhibited STING, thereby regulating antiviral responses and contributing to resolving STING-associated inflammation. Thus, we have unveiled a negative regulatory feedback loop between STING and FADS2 that fine-tunes inflammatory responses. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34986331/
 

Garz

Senior Member
Messages
374
MB was used as an antimalaria drug originally - it was the first fully synthetic drug i think - doses were 400 to 800mg a day - large human trials were done in the 50s and 60s at these doses - sometimes long term - and it appears to be safe.

its also used in geriatric medicine at doses of around 50 -100mg a day ( note: orders of magnitude larger doses than mentioned above for nootropic use)

caution is needed however as the manufacturing process includes heavy metals - which are often present in the end product - namely mercury, arsenic, cadmium, lead etc - and have to be removed via post processing.

sources online for lab use as a dye or for aquarium use as a fungicide / antimicrobial - will be unlikely to be made to this standard -and there are no safe dose limits for many of those heavy metals - so please only use pharmaceutical grade product.

my ME/CFS with entirely typical CFS symptoms that matches perfectly the top 20 symptoms on polls in this forum, including PEM, turned out to be chronic bartonella infection.
methylene blue was recently found to be very active antimicrobial for bartonella in a large screening of FDA approved drugs and is being used by doctors specialising in bartonella treatment with some degree of success. doses are typically 100-200mg a day as adjunct to other antibiotics.
 

Davsey27

Senior Member
Messages
520
Hi @LINE -- Legitimate concerns. I've been taking MB since February, and feel I've found a reliable product.
I initially purchased a 3.5 oz. 1% solution bottle at Amazon, but you can also buy it for much less if you get the powder (same company) and dilute it with purified water. The ratio is 1 gram of the powder to 100 ml. (about 3.5 oz.) of water. The exact ratio is not really important, and some people like to make it both stronger and weaker than the above ratio. The 1 gram to 100 ml. ratio is the most commonly used however.

This product is pharmaceutical grade (USP), which is what they recommend for taking it internally. There are other less pure grades out there for fish tanks and laboratory use, though I don't really know how much less pure. THIS POST takes you to a list of "recommended dosages", but I take far less, about 10 drops per day. I think most people with ME/CFS should start slowly, like 1-3 drops per day in the beginning. -- If you're interested in more information on MB, check out the thread I started entitled:

Methylene Blue -- The "Perfect Supplement" For ME/CFS (?)



Hey Wayne

Glad to hear you some help with this.I.was curious do you think there is a difference quality between usp grade brands?

For example at 1-2mg of biopharm mb i felt worse
Thank you


https://www.amazon.com/Methylene-Bl...9788381&sprefix=methlyene+blue,aps,194&sr=8-1
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
423
Location
USA
Thanks @datadragon and @Wayne for the great info! As a side note, a longcovid patient has had noticeable results using PEA.

Yes Palmitoylethanolamide inhibits NLRP3 inflammasome expression (such as mentioned here expressed by sars-cov-2 spike protein). However it also helped with the gut barrier, restructuring the gut bacteria and short chain fatty acid profile, and inhibits STING so that was my first thought over some of the other options that appear to help from their NLRP3 inhibition.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8472716/ And of course butyrate in later stages should help with the pem and energy is another thought.
 
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Messages
21
Here's where I ordered my MB in the US. They have 3rd party lab test reports and a good reputation, and everything I've ordered from them seems to behave as the pure ingredient should.
https://science.bio/product/methylene-blue-solution/

I took 50 mg for several months and noticed some nootropic effect, especially at first. But the real purpose was to treat my chronic infection, which it did not do, even in higher doses.

Be warned, the liquid form gets very messy if you allow even a tiny drop to escape your workspace. It is extremely effective as a blue dye.
 

Garz

Senior Member
Messages
374
methylene blue has been found to be a useful antibiotic - particularly as a drug against bacteria that forms persister cells - such as bartonella - superior to many existing persister drugs - but this is when tested in in-vitro trials.
however, its notoriously difficult to extrapolate human dosing from such in-vitro work.

clinical use suggests dose of at least 100mg per day when used as part of a multi antibiotic regime for bartonella for instance - and doses of 600mg per day or more in high dose combination antibiotic pulsed regimes for persisters of borrelia and bartonella - ref Horowitz and his upcoming paper on high dose dapsone pulse therapy.

so far we do not have any drugs that have been shown to be effective for chronic Bartonellosis when used as monotherapy ( at least in the general sense - there may be outlier individuals who have recovered after a single antibiotic - there are also those that have recovered without any antibiotics - but these are both on the tail of the bell mouth distribution )

3 and 4 drug combinations are the norm
 
Messages
21
clinical use suggests dose of at least 100mg per day when used as part of a multi antibiotic regime for bartonella for instance - and doses of 600mg per day or more in high dose combination antibiotic pulsed regimes for persisters of borrelia and bartonella - ref Horowitz and his upcoming paper on high dose dapsone pulse therapy.
Reference an upcoming paper? That's beyond even my skills. :cool:

I ramped up to 900mg once in combination with azithromycin and rifampin, with little effect (but a side effect of severely constipated dark blue stools). I still have a stockpile in my closet in case I decide to try again.

As for the original post - MB for ME/CFS - it's hard to say because ME/CFS is likely several different diseases, For someone with a non-infectious or post-infectious version, maybe it's useful. In my case, I'm battling a chronic infection of unknown identity, so it's more of an antimicrobial treatment problem.
 

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,277
Location
UK
I'm back to trying it again but at a miniscule dose. If my blood pressure rises again I will try a herbal remedy to lower it. So I started with one drop in a glass of orange juice, and drank one quarter of it. That's pretty low. I took it in orange juice - a tip from the Ray Peat forum. I will take a dose once every two days.
 

Garz

Senior Member
Messages
374
Reference an upcoming paper? That's beyond even my skills. :cool:
haha! very good - i was writing in a kind of shorthand to avoid lengthening my already wordy response
but basically Horowitz has presented what his paper is all about and what's in it

https://projectlyme.org/event/discussing-dapsone-with-dr-richard-horowitz-and-ali-moresco/

I ramped up to 900mg once in combination with azithromycin and rifampin, with little effect (but a side effect of severely constipated dark blue stools). I still have a stockpile in my closet in case I decide to try again.
that sounds like a pretty effective protocol for Lyme and Bartonella - but as per Horowitz Results - only of limited benefit if Babesia is in the picture.

i know to many it might seem like the chances of getting 1 so called rare infection let alone 3 seem remote and therefore they discount the idea that they may be multiply infected - but in fact evidence of any one infection - antibodies, bulls eye rashes, positive test results etc - is evidence they were in fact exposed to a vector carrying infections - and since the same vectors carry multiple infections - exposure to one indicates exposure to many.

the other aspect is the issue of persister cells and the need for repeated pulsing of medications to break them down - there is in-vitro evidence that pulsing with a single antibiotic can kill infections that even 3 or 4 continuous antibiotics cannot eradicate - so it seems something about pulsing is stressing the organisms in ways that continuous antibiotics cannot. ( horowtiz talks about this in the vid also )
 
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